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Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



muscles like this! posted:

Speaking of Macross, the inbetween transformation form seems pretty pointless. Its a jet with arms and legs, the worst of both worlds. Also I don't remember anyone ever actually using it that much.

My memory is that it was used like a high-mobility ground form, dashing about on a cushion of air.

Like when Max is sneaking about the Zentradi ship, knocking out guards and stealing their uniforms

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wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Ghost Leviathan posted:

I think Top Gun and various pilot media (including Star Wars) is a heavy influence on mecha and Gundam in particular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bhCMoMYXfo
Various people have commented on the connection with this in particular, to the point I had my pick of videos like this.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



I do think it's interesting how spaceships in Gundam just don't have any gravity. I don't think those hallway carrying poles would really scale will when there's multiple people who need to get through, but it's an interesting solution.

They also don't portray how human bodies just kinda start dissolving and deteriorating under zero G, so far as I remember, but not many things do.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




SlothfulCobra posted:

They also don't portray how human bodies just kinda start dissolving and deteriorating under zero G, so far as I remember, but not many things do.

Another reason The Expanse is good, it's an important plot point there.

Guyver
Dec 5, 2006



Most of the space stuff in gundam was straight out of The High Frontier by O'Neill.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





Guyver posted:

Most of the space stuff in gundam was straight out of The High Frontier by O'Neill.

The interesting thing about that now is iirc that we've updated the models for those and it turns out either they have stability issues or are way heavier than they need to be.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



Appleseed mechs have the most plausible seeming control scheme I've seen:


- Big chonky thighs to fit the pilot's legs and have space for them to move so the robot legs&feet can mirror it.
- Pilots arms go into human-scale gloves/vambraces and stick out the torso, then robot arms mimic the motion.
- All other controls are external, like a robot-size rifle has a robot-size trigger

Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Feb 9, 2021

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

SlothfulCobra posted:

They also don't portray how human bodies just kinda start dissolving and deteriorating under zero G, so far as I remember, but not many things do.

Gundam does, but to a very limited extent and mostly limited to various supplementary materials. For example, a number of ships have a rotating gravity block section to allow for some small space with gravity. It mostly shows up on the larger/more advanced hero ships like White Base, and is most obvious on the Argama from Zeta as they’re external and shown deployed when the ship isn’t in combat, but in general ships in Gundam aren’t on long deployments away from colonies or bases anyway.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Foxfire_ posted:

Appleseed mechs have the most plausible seeming control scheme I've seen:


- Big chonky thighs to fit the pilot's legs and have space for them to move so the robot legs&feet can mirror it.
- Pilots arms go into human-scale gloves/vambraces and stick out the torso, then robot arms mimic the motion.
- All other controls are external, like a robot-size rifle has a robot-size trigger
The design of the torso armor literally deflects incoming fire unto the vulnerable arms, which are clearly far less armored than the rest. The mech would be disabled almost immediately as the pilot has an arm blown off and goes into shock. Feel like maybe going with the thigh idea and having the pilot lean back inside the torso so the arms stay inside makes more sense.

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


poo poo, he can easily crush his own arms with his own robot arms. Not to mention any tumble or fall and bye-bye fleshy arm.

The picture belongs in the thread

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Why would you have the arms stick out of the body at all

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Shirow Masamune seems like a real gearhead and does a lot of work thinking through and designing the technology that the characters use in his stories, but I don't think vehicles are his thing. Like leaving aside the design of the tachikomas that are just so weird it's hard to compare them to anything real, there's Tank Police.



If you take a look at the main character Leona's tank here, the Bonaparte, you'll see that there's absolutely no angled armor, the tank will take just about any shots perpendicular to the plating, no deflection. And then there's a bunch of weird design decisions like 4 separate sets of tracks, at which point why not just have wheels, or the weird long tail gatling gun with a very small range of movement.

And then there's questions like "why do the police even have a tank" and "why do you need spiky all-terrain treads that will shred up the street" and it's been a long while since I read it, but I think there were a lot of jokes about the tank being pretty horribly suited to most of the police work they were doing. Then you have other tanks that used the tachikoma-style weird orb wheels and still never had a turret with a 360 range of fire. They look neat, but miss the major points of tank design.



GD_American posted:

poo poo, he can easily crush his own arms with his own robot arms. Not to mention any tumble or fall and bye-bye fleshy arm.

The picture belongs in the thread

They definitely don't have that range of motion.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



If you've got a brain/machine interface then a humanoid mech makes a lot of sense because your pilot will have a lot of instinctive control over the mech, once they learn its range of motion and weight. Just have the pilot sitting or curled up in the torso.

THE BAR
Oct 20, 2011

You know what might look better on your nose?



Gravitas Shortfall posted:

If you've got a brain/machine interface then a humanoid mech makes a lot of sense because your pilot will have a lot of instinctive control over the mech, once they learn its range of motion and weight. Just have the pilot sitting or curled up in the torso.

But if we have that kind of technology, wouldn't a remote-controlled drone mech make more sense? You can even have it shaped as a humanoid, but there's no reason to put an actual person inside of it by that point.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




That tank design seems pretty obviously cartoony and stylised in any case. And it's not like they couldn't have just used a real design if they wanted to.

While we're on anime- Capsules from Dragon Ball are obviously super convenient, but hilariously unsafe, and there's a few gags about that.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



THE BAR posted:

But if we have that kind of technology, wouldn't a remote-controlled drone mech make more sense?

Only if you're not worried about jamming, interference, or signal-spoofing. Or latency issues.

THE BAR
Oct 20, 2011

You know what might look better on your nose?



Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Only if you're not worried about jamming, interference, or signal-spoofing. Or latency issues.

We already have some super capable eggheads in this scenario. Splash some razzle dazzle paint over it if you have to.

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus


THE BAR posted:

We already have some super capable eggheads in this scenario. Splash some razzle dazzle paint over it if you have to.

Minofsky particles interfere with wireless communication, or whatever other technobabble is necessary. Depending on the setting you don’t even really need technobabble, if you’re on earth and the mech’s in space then unless you also have ftl communication there’s probably too much latency for combat.

From a serious standpoint I think even with direct brain-machine interfaces you’d still be better off designing a functional machine first and just let the professional soldiers train to use it, you’re making a ton of compromises to put arms and legs on instead of just building a tank or fighter or whatever. But mechs are cooler than tanks, so

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



THE BAR posted:

We already have some super capable eggheads in this scenario. Splash some razzle dazzle paint over it if you have to.

They did, they used their egghead razzle dazzle to stick a human body inside the robot body while still giving the pilot a whole free range of movement, despite the relative small size of the mech.

It gets really weird when you get bizarrely selective about what physics you want the author to ignore.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester


A Buttery Pastry posted:

The design of the torso armor literally deflects incoming fire unto the vulnerable arms, which are clearly far less armored than the rest. The mech would be disabled almost immediately as the pilot has an arm blown off and goes into shock. Feel like maybe going with the thigh idea and having the pilot lean back inside the torso so the arms stay inside makes more sense.

I'd respect that design more if the human was also carrying a rifle

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Gravitas Shortfall posted:

If you've got a brain/machine interface then a humanoid mech makes a lot of sense because your pilot will have a lot of instinctive control over the mech, once they learn its range of motion and weight. Just have the pilot sitting or curled up in the torso.

This is exactly how it works in Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans. Certain units will also overdrive your nervous system to make sure your reaction speed can keep up with pure AI robots, which has uh side effects but is definitely better than the alternative.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



A Buttery Pastry posted:

The design of the torso armor literally deflects incoming fire unto the vulnerable arms, which are clearly far less armored than the rest. The mech would be disabled almost immediately as the pilot has an arm blown off and goes into shock. Feel like maybe going with the thigh idea and having the pilot lean back inside the torso so the arms stay inside makes more sense.

It's not quite that bad since they normally have the big arms out in front holding a rifle and covering the torso and little arms. Plus storywise, they're more small-arms resistant infantry that are expected to be hiding behind cover instead of Gundams out in the open.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


There's still no reason at all for the little arms to be exposed to anything at all if they're just being mimicked by the big arms rather than doing anything of their own. What if they get caught on something protruding from the cover and mashed or ripped?

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



RBA Starblade posted:

I'd respect that design more if the human was also carrying a rifle

I'm pretty sure in the Ghost in the Shell standalone complex series we see military assault mechs with giant weapon arms but also two human sized arms for holding regular rifles

boo boo bear
Oct 1, 2009


THE BAR posted:

But if we have that kind of technology, wouldn't a remote-controlled drone mech make more sense? You can even have it shaped as a humanoid, but there's no reason to put an actual person inside of it by that point.

they're willing to accept a certain number of casualties for epic pictures of pilots exiting their mech suits

RangerKarl
Oct 7, 2013


muscles like this! posted:

Speaking of Macross, the inbetween transformation form seems pretty pointless. Its a jet with arms and legs, the worst of both worlds. Also I don't remember anyone ever actually using it that much.

This was actually a minor plot in Macross 7, where Basara never really bothered with it until an ace from the original series taught him how best to use it. It's used mostly for high-speed, low-level traversal in relatively cramped terrain, like highways and neighborhoods. Also you get to style on things aiming at your chest in Battroid mode, by transforming to GERWALK like it was a Perfect Parry.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



IIRC in the OG Xbox Robottech game it was pretty useful for zooming around ground level at speed before switching back to mech mode for the fights.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Cerv posted:

IIRC in the OG Xbox Robottech game it was pretty useful for zooming around ground level at speed before switching back to mech mode for the fights.

Oh my gosh that game was so much fun

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



boo boo bear posted:

they're willing to accept a certain number of casualties for epic pictures of pilots exiting their mech suits

We have the technology right now to pilot drones remotely, why aren't we using the same technology for tanks and jet fighters

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

Speaking of Macross, I always wondered as a kid what what was up with the "U.N. Spacy" on everything.




Turns out it was some very logical non-native English speaking thinking.

Military who fight on the ground = army.

Military who fight on the ocean = navy.

Military who fight in space = spacy.

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


SlothfulCobra posted:

And then there's questions like "why do the police even have a tank" and "why do you need spiky all-terrain treads that will shred up the street" and it's been a long while since I read it, but I think there were a lot of jokes about the tank being pretty horribly suited to most of the police work they were doing.

I've only ever seen the anime, but the entire theme was very much "why the gently caress do the police have tanks"

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



GD_American posted:

I've only ever seen the anime, but the entire theme was very much "why the gently caress do the police have tanks"

Sounds like it was ahead of its time

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





Gravitas Shortfall posted:

We have the technology right now to pilot drones remotely, why aren't we using the same technology for tanks and jet fighters

Iirc in the mil history thread in A/T they had this discussion like a month ago and some former tankers came and said for remote control tanks "good luck cleaning mud or paint off the sensors and that you would still need someone to do field repairs" and some other things I don't remember off the top of my head.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

GD_American posted:

I've only ever seen the anime, but the entire theme was very much "why the gently caress do the police have tanks"

I actually had the first couple of comics for Tank Police and one of the characters was asked, after they caused some massive destruction during a chase, why a simple arrest had turned so destructive and violent.

They replied: "You can't negotiate in a tank"

The comic seemed to be about a dystopian future (wow, in a book from Japan in the 80s!) and the police only being able to respond to things like protests and general crime in tanks ranging from the size of a Volkswagen to ones the size of a truck was a very big part of that.

But, as I said, I only had the first couple of issues, so who knows where it went to. I pretty much tuned out after the introduction of the catgirl android "fanservice".


EDIT: and the whole first episode is up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rzBfgjXO3c


Double edit: Wow, it really aged poorly.

Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Feb 10, 2021

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Gravitas Shortfall posted:

We have the technology right now to pilot drones remotely, why aren't we using the same technology for tanks and jet fighters

The US doesn't even use autoloaders for tanks at this point.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



Gravitas Shortfall posted:

We have the technology right now to pilot drones remotely, why aren't we using the same technology for tanks and jet fighters

Tanks: Getting a reliable radio signal on the ground when there's terrain and trees in the way is harder than in the air
Jet fighters: The air force is run by ex-fighter pilots who think piloted fighters are cool and somehow inherently better than drones

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Tulip posted:

The US doesn't even use autoloaders for tanks at this point.

That was also a huge debate in the mil history thread. Long story short there are good reasons that they didn’t do it in the past and we’re not sure if they’re still true.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Gravitas Shortfall posted:

We have the technology right now to pilot drones remotely, why aren't we using the same technology for tanks and jet fighters

what happens if someone starts jamming the radio frequencies used for those remote operations?


it's worth remembering that most (all?) of our drone operations have been against nations who don't have the money to really gently caress with us in the air. it's easily plausible that a ~~*~peer competitor~*~~ (e.g. russia, china) could develop a drone whose only purpose is to fly in and just jam the hell out of drone communications. then they roll up and take down our headless drones, either with their drones on a different frequency, or with their human-piloted fighters.


and sure, you could say "oh well if the drone loses contact then it could just do something like lob a HARM at whatever's blasting radio noise" (and there's a whole can of worms there too - if a squadron of drones loses comms do they ALL launch at the same target?), but i think by the time you've built up the drone's software sufficiently to be able to handle itself in combat after it loses contact, you're pretty far away from "using the same technology" as what's on current drones

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


oh uh anyway another example of poo poo tech: i punished myself last week by watching the Wing Commander movie and apparently the Confederation has no way of authenticating communications or orders because despite being handed an encrypted transmission by a commissioned officer, a carrier's command staff is still willing to write it off as phony orders from the enemy until someone pulls out a ring that shows they personally know the admiral that sent those orders.


is there any article that goes into why that movie is so crummy? like i guess there's a quote by one of the actors that the original script he got was great, and then when he showed up he got handed a rewrite that was back-to-back dogshit. i'm sure the answer is "chris roberts" but i'm a sucker for behind-the-scenes drama and bullshit

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Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

oh uh anyway another example of poo poo tech: i punished myself last week by watching the Wing Commander movie and apparently the Confederation has no way of authenticating communications or orders because despite being handed an encrypted transmission by a commissioned officer, a carrier's command staff is still willing to write it off as phony orders from the enemy until someone pulls out a ring that shows they personally know the admiral that sent those orders.


is there any article that goes into why that movie is so crummy? like i guess there's a quote by one of the actors that the original script he got was great, and then when he showed up he got handed a rewrite that was back-to-back dogshit. i'm sure the answer is "chris roberts" but i'm a sucker for behind-the-scenes drama and bullshit

If anyone knows, they're in the Star Citizen thread.

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