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Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

THE BAR posted:

But if we have that kind of technology, wouldn't a remote-controlled drone mech make more sense? You can even have it shaped as a humanoid, but there's no reason to put an actual person inside of it by that point.

Oh hey gen:LOCK, what are you doing over here in this conversation?

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GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

what happens if someone starts jamming the radio frequencies used for those remote operations?


it's worth remembering that most (all?) of our drone operations have been against nations who don't have the money to really gently caress with us in the air. it's easily plausible that a ~~*~peer competitor~*~~ (e.g. russia, china) could develop a drone whose only purpose is to fly in and just jam the hell out of drone communications. then they roll up and take down our headless drones, either with their drones on a different frequency, or with their human-piloted fighters.

Tangentially, we discovered in a big way early in Iraq 2 that while putting all your eggs in the satcom basket was fine for peacetime, the bandwidth requirements for a fully networked military at war quickly overwhelmed everything the DoD had in space. They leased every bit of available commercial bandwidth, and started digging some old Vietnam-era toys out of the closet like HF radio.


(All public knowledge at this point)

That didn't even require a bad actor downing a satellite or two (which our major peers have the capability to do). If GPS goes down, a huuuugeee part of military functionality goes with it.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



my question re: remote control tanks was a hypothetical meant to back up my answer to "why do mechs have pilots instead of being remote controlled" and I am fully justified, thank u

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


If you're using the human brain's natural motor controls, it makes remote control even worse because human brains do not like latency issues or occasional blackouts from the rest of the body.

Although I guess arguing "why not just not risk soldiers directly" is almost on the level of "why not just not have any war" so far as criticisms go.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Foxfire_ posted:

Tanks: Getting a reliable radio signal on the ground when there's terrain and trees in the way is harder than in the air
Jet fighters: The air force is run by ex-fighter pilots who think piloted fighters are cool and somehow inherently better than drones
This is the actual reason:

https://i.imgur.com/Uqo1EkQ.mp4

boo boo bear
Oct 1, 2009


drat right. drones are stupid looking and can't smile for the camera. sexy fighter pilots will sell a billion in warbonds and that's how you win wars.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Fighter jets are really loving funny because literally any scenario they're actually meaningfully used is already the end of the world. The ending of Top Gun would probably spark a nuclear war.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005
THIS CUSTOM TITLE WILL COME IN HANDY WHILE LURKING


boo boo bear posted:

drat right. drones are stupid looking and can't smile for the camera. sexy fighter pilots will sell a billion in warbonds and that's how you win wars.

You could use that billion to buy another jet!

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Are Marvel comics style "the most powerful object in the universe" garbage technology or a plot trope?

Like the Cosmic Cube. Once completed, you touch it and it grants your fondest wish, like the Triforce?!? Huh, never put that together before

Only the ultimate plot macguffin carries with it that from the time you start construction to its completion, you are now enemies with everyone in the universe

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


GD_American posted:

Tangentially, we discovered in a big way early in Iraq 2 that while putting all your eggs in the satcom basket was fine for peacetime, the bandwidth requirements for a fully networked military at war quickly overwhelmed everything the DoD had in space. They leased every bit of available commercial bandwidth, and started digging some old Vietnam-era toys out of the closet like HF radio.


(All public knowledge at this point)

That didn't even require a bad actor downing a satellite or two (which our major peers have the capability to do). If GPS goes down, a huuuugeee part of military functionality goes with it.

yeah i remember reading years ago about bandwidth constraints, and how even before 2003 the satellite network was getting slammed with stuff like dipshit admirals sending multi-hundred-megabyte powerpoint files everywhere


some goon once posted an anecdote about how some poor grunt in Afghanistan needed a file ASAP and it was some godawful big file and the Inmarsat link they had would get the transfer done in, like, several days.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Fighter jets are really loving funny because literally any scenario they're actually meaningfully used is already the end of the world. The ending of Top Gun would probably spark a nuclear war.

Incidents like that have happened historically, although I guess you could argue whether they were meaningful. And unfortunately there are a bunch of ways to use jets (bombing rebels, rebel controlled areas, rebel controlled hospitals, rebel controlled humanitarian aid, rebel controlled children, etc) which see pretty frequent applications.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Okay but have you considered how fast they go and how cool they look

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Yes, ideally we would make a bunch of jets and then throw a G Gundam tournament every year or something.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Nebakenezzer posted:

Are Marvel comics style "the most powerful object in the universe" garbage technology or a plot trope?

Like the Cosmic Cube. Once completed, you touch it and it grants your fondest wish, like the Triforce?!? Huh, never put that together before

Only the ultimate plot macguffin carries with it that from the time you start construction to its completion, you are now enemies with everyone in the universe

Bit of both. I mean the whole conceit of GotG is that the Infinity Stone in question is almost impossible to use without proper equipment without destroying yourself. It's a convenient way to make macguffins that don't necessarily bring up 'Why don't they just use x' for every single problem down the road. (reminds me of Dragon Ball, where they eventually DO start using them for everything from fixing the collateral damage from Vegeta throwing a tantrum to cosmetic surgery)

Also that last bit reminds me of the victory conditions from Civilization: Beyond Earth; not a great game but some fun ideas. Every victory condition isn't something you can easily miss, but a huge construction that's very obvious to everyone and basically rings a bell for everyone to come try and blow it up or lose the game, meaning every game ends with a reason to finally use all those fancy toys you've spent it building.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

If you're building Gundams, as everyone has pointed out, the weak point is the pilot. Specifically, the pilot's body.

So, remove the body:

boo boo bear
Oct 1, 2009


The Moon Monster posted:

You could use that billion to buy another jet!

galaxy brain: use that billion to start a second war!

Regarde Aduck
Oct 18, 2012

haha


Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Fighter jets are really loving funny because literally any scenario they're actually meaningfully used is already the end of the world. The ending of Top Gun would probably spark a nuclear war.

what?

do you specifically mean 'used in large numbers' because fighters have engaged and shot down other fighters a bunch of times

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

is there any article that goes into why that movie is so crummy? like i guess there's a quote by one of the actors that the original script he got was great, and then when he showed up he got handed a rewrite that was back-to-back dogshit. i'm sure the answer is "chris roberts" but i'm a sucker for behind-the-scenes drama and bullshit

It has been a while since I've read a deep dive on the subject, but from memory:

Ever since Wing Commander III, Chris Roberts had made it clear that he was far more fascinated with making movies than making games. One of the terms of his exit from EA and Origin was that his new company, Digital Anvil, would have the rights to co-produce a Wing Commander movie with Origin.

However, Roberts was completely unprepared for the realities of actual Hollywood moviemaking. A very heavy-handed producer, Todd Moyer, was assigned to the project by one of the companies that actually financed the movie, and Moyer brought in a complete neophyte screenwriter named Kevin Droney to rewrite the outline and treatment that Roberts had put together. Budget realities forced the production to shoot in Luxembourg on a horribly compressed schedule (something like a little over a month), and Digital Anvil--which was a PC developer, remember--had to work overtime to work on the visual effects, which were also handled by a horribly overworked team at Cinesite. The script was being rewritten during shooting and post-production was rushed to meet a release date, because they had a bonus coming from Fox to tie the movie's release with the Episode I trailer.

Basically, everything that could have gone wrong went wrong.

Timby fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 18, 2021

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

I actually like a couple of the effects shots in that movie

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



General Battuta posted:

I actually like a couple of the effects shots in that movie

Space bulldozer?

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Timby posted:

It has been a while since I've read a deep dive on the subject, but from memory:

Ever since Wing Commander III, Chris Roberts had made it clear that he was far more fascinated with making movies than making games. One of the terms of his exit from EA and Origin was that his new company, Digital Anvil, would have the rights to co-produce a Wing Commander movie with Origin.

However, Roberts was completely unprepared for the realities of actual Hollywood moviemaking. A very heavy-handed producer, Todd Moyer, was assigned to the project by one of the companies that actually financed the movie, and Moyer brought in a complete neophyte screenwriter named Kevin Droney to rewrite the outline and treatment that Roberts had put together. Budget realities forced the production to shoot in Luxembourg on a horribly compressed schedule (something like a little over a month), and Digital Anvil--which was a PC developer, remember--had to work overtime to work on the visual effects, which were also handled by a horribly overworked team at Cinesite. The script was being rewritten during shooting and post-production was rushed to meet a release date, because they had a bonus coming from Fox to tie the movie's release with the Episode I trailer.

Basically, everything that could have gone wrong went wrong.

Oof, that's rough.

One thing I'll give the production credit for is that, while the interior spaces are still pretty wide open by submarine spaces, it felt like there was at least a token effort to convey a more cramped, naval feel to the ship interiors. I'm doubly impressed if they were navigating that while under the gun on the shooting schedule.

Do you know if Roberts had intended to try and swing for getting the Wing Commander 3 and 4 casts for the movie and got overridden, or was it always the plan to go with a younger cast? I do remember thinking while watching the movie "was Malcolm McDowell really that much more expensive than David Warner? "

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




I imagine the rates for hiring these people for full movies is a lot more than for a video game in the 90s

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Space bulldozer?

Definitely not that one although it is extremely funny.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!



Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Oof, that's rough.

One thing I'll give the production credit for is that, while the interior spaces are still pretty wide open by submarine spaces, it felt like there was at least a token effort to convey a more cramped, naval feel to the ship interiors. I'm doubly impressed if they were navigating that while under the gun on the shooting schedule.

Do you know if Roberts had intended to try and swing for getting the Wing Commander 3 and 4 casts for the movie and got overridden, or was it always the plan to go with a younger cast? I do remember thinking while watching the movie "was Malcolm McDowell really that much more expensive than David Warner? "

The production designer on WC was the legendary Peter Lamont (Titanic, GoldenEye, Aliens), which is the primary reason the sets looked so goddamn good. He was a master at squeezing every single cent out of his budgets; for example, I believe it was Lamont's idea to use old Lightning fuselages for the Confed fighters, because they looked sufficiently high-tech and futuristic and were able to be rented out for next to nothing.

As for the cast, only Hamill was really targeted (and he originally had a larger role as Merlin, Blair's shipboard and portable AI, before Merlin became a voice-only role; Hamill still did the voice but went uncredited). As I recall, the script was always "Blair and Maniac's first mission," so there wasn't really room for the WC3/4 cast.

I think they might have approached McDowell but he was too busy with a bunch of DTV poo poo to get to Luxembourg. I'm sure he would have, though, since he's like Michaels Caine and Ironside in that he'll do just about anything for three hots and a cot.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


Regarde Aduck posted:

what?

do you specifically mean 'used in large numbers' because fighters have engaged and shot down other fighters a bunch of times

I think he means "Between world powers" The last time that two great powers fought an air war was Korea, and even there the Russians went to great lengths to pretend they weren't the ones flying the planes. There have been a few things between less powerful nations like how India and Pakistan sometimes have tit-for-tat dogfights. And times like Vietnam where a world power has fought the airforce of a small nation. But something like Top-Gun where Russia and the U.S have an air battle would totally bring us to the verge of nuclear war.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Looper feels like a movie that everyone just forgot about. Pity, since it has an interesting conceit for this thread: Time travel exists, it works, and it's illegal. The mafia in a lovely post-climate-collapse city use it for body disposal, with a shaky bootleg machine that they don't fully understand, and the core premise is basically how the superstitious mafiosos, including the protagonist, don't understand how it works, and make the wrong assumptions.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005
THIS CUSTOM TITLE WILL COME IN HANDY WHILE LURKING


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Looper feels like a movie that everyone just forgot about. Pity, since it has an interesting conceit for this thread: Time travel exists, it works, and it's illegal. The mafia in a lovely post-climate-collapse city use it for body disposal, with a shaky bootleg machine that they don't fully understand, and the core premise is basically how the superstitious mafiosos, including the protagonist, don't understand how it works, and make the wrong assumptions.

Wasn't it specifically that future authorities were really good at detecting and prosecuting murder (but not time travel I guess) so they send people back in time to be murdered?

MRC48B
Apr 2, 2012



I thought that entire film was written to watch Joeseph Gordon levitt do a bruce willis impression for two hours.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


MRC48B posted:

I thought that entire film was written to watch Joeseph Gordon levitt do a bruce willis impression for two hours.

Yeah, and itís great

Shwoo
Jul 21, 2011



According to interviews, the reason they had to send people back in time to be killed was that everyone in the future was implanted with a microchip that would broadcast their location when they died, so killing them before there was anything to receive the broadcast was a way to bypass that. But I don't think that's even hinted at in the movie itself.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Shwoo posted:

According to interviews, the reason they had to send people back in time to be killed was that everyone in the future was implanted with a microchip that would broadcast their location when they died, so killing them before there was anything to receive the broadcast was a way to bypass that. But I don't think that's even hinted at in the movie itself.

You would think a faraday cage would cost way less than a time machine. I assumed it was something way weirder.

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


wdarkk posted:

You would think a faraday cage would cost way less than a time machine. I assumed it was something way weirder.

It was a plot contrivance to justify the concept. Whatever writer that was tasked with pulling it off with like 2-3 lines of exposition didn't get the job done.

theflyingexecutive
Apr 22, 2007




GD_American posted:

It was a plot contrivance to justify the concept. Whatever writer that was tasked with pulling it off with like 2-3 lines of exposition didn't get the job done.

They brought Shane Carruth in to punch up the time travel mechanics and it was just too complicated to make work in the story. So itís like that, in that it doesnít matter why the future mob does that, it only matters that a time machine is how they do it.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Minimalist exposition is a lot trickier than it looks. Audiences generally have trouble accepting that characters in-universe are ignorant or wrong about something unless it's specifically pointed out, probably from a lifetime of stories that explain everything to them.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Minimalist exposition is a lot trickier than it looks. Audiences generally have trouble accepting that characters in-universe are ignorant or wrong about something unless it's specifically pointed out, probably from a lifetime of stories that explain everything to them.

At the same time, too many shows make characters carry the stupid ball (or whatever it was called) so it can be difficult to tell if a character is being deservedly ignorant or arbitrarily ignorant. And how many times have we seen that stupid trope where conflict is generated because two characters just refuse to talk to each other for five minutes only to have the situation spiral way out of control?

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Solkanar512 posted:

At the same time, too many shows make characters carry the stupid ball (or whatever it was called) so it can be difficult to tell if a character is being deservedly ignorant or arbitrarily ignorant. And how many times have we seen that stupid trope where conflict is generated because two characters just refuse to talk to each other for five minutes only to have the situation spiral way out of control?

"I don't have time to explain in 3 sentences what is going on, you just have to come with me"
3 days later
"aaaaa i'm dying before I can tell you what's up"

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006



CainFortea posted:

"I don't have time to explain in 3 sentences what is going on, you just have to come with me"
3 days later
"aaaaa i'm dying before I can tell you what's up"

Excellent example.

Or like in the last season of GoT, we couldn't have Bran, Sansa and Arya sit in a room and talk for a minute. Nooo, that would make too much loving sense, if you can have someone with the ability to see and hear every time in history it's cheating to actually do it!

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007

I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.


CainFortea posted:

"I don't have time to explain in 3 sentences what is going on, you just have to come with me"
3 days later
"aaaaa i'm dying before I can tell you what's up"

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Minimalist exposition is a lot trickier than it looks. Audiences generally have trouble accepting that characters in-universe are ignorant or wrong about something unless it's specifically pointed out, probably from a lifetime of stories that explain everything to them.

The Mandalorian did this very well.

The series had a tonne of callbacks to the movies and references to the cartoons, but you didn't need to know any of it to enjoy and understand what was on screen. The characters would either eventually tell you exactly who they were, or were such a strong archetype that they didn't need to.

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McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







All those convoluted explanations for sending Mafia hit targets back in time for Looper are really funny because all you need is the most basic one ever: dumping the body. A time machine would be the ultimate evidence disposal device.

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