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DogsInSpace!
Sep 11, 2001




Fun Shoe

TheAardvark posted:

it's fine, I've only been spoiled like 3 separate times in this thread by people who forgot what episodes things happened in..


kind of a lovely situation, because the responses from people who have seen the show do help goad me along in to continuing watching. like (season 3 E1 spoiler, I guess) Garibaldi's hair strip.

For the most part I'm glad to have knowledgeable people posting about the show. It's hard for me as someone who binge watches shows to put any effort at all in to writing up my thoughts without some kind of feedback.

My request is that the knowledgeable show watchers seriously consider what they're posting, and run it by the other thread first. I really don't want y'all to decide to stop posting here entirely to protect us, but please spoiler tag everything strongly and run it by eachother. If people stop posting in this thread I will just watch the show through, and probably love it, but I do like having this way to discuss it in depth, and I'm just not the kind of person who documents their thoughts on TV without having some feedback.

Honestly, if you've seen the whole show, put everything in spoilers and seriously, seriously think about what you're saying. The comments that haven't been inadvertant spoilers have been really nice to have while watching through the show.

About a decade ago a friend of mine introduced me to Babylon 5. He had watched it with his father as a kid and seemed to love introducing me to this show. He'd sit there and watch my reactions and seem to get so much joy out of it. I'd ask questions and come up with some theories and he'd just smile and say "just keep watching". It was funny as I didn't quite understand his delight until now. He really went out of his way to spoil nothing except repeating "On the next...Babylon 5" in the typical Hollywood trailer guy voice. Sometimes I used to get irritated as I wanted to know but I really appreciated how carefully he kept me in the dark. Guy did the exact same thing with Game of Thrones and Lost. He coulda skipped Game of Thrones but hindsight 20/20 and all of that.

To the new guys: Thank you. It makes me smile when I hear about your theories and recaps. It really does give me something to look forward to in these dark times as sad as that might be. Weirdly I came up with the same thoughts as the Doctor about various things as I like to read and I watch way too much telly.There was a quote from a comic Flex Mentallo that I loved that talked about silly stories and how much they can mean to us. Goon had it as his avatar. Wish I could remember it now. I'm not going to post much more in this thread but I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your thoughts and posts.

To the fellow vets: I know sometimes you want to post. It's fun to hear someone ALMOST get it and I understand the want to tell them "man you are SO close" or to fill them in on a detail they might have missed but... let's keep it vague. No need for anything dramatic as most of us mean well (except that incelshok guy) but just refrain. Let's sit back like my friend and let the new guys watch it with innocent eyes. They come up with something odd? Let them. They think something is shite? That's ok. We had our fun and now it's their turn. Let them stumble, let them skin their knees, let them discover what emotions come in whatever want or flavour they need. It would be proper nice if we stood back and let them do their thing. Maybe give them a thumbs up and let them know we are here if they need or want. Offer your private message inbox or refer them to the reg B5 thread if they want to know more about technical details but stand back and simply enjoy watching their journey. Comment encouraging words sure but keep it vague. As they are, so were we once upon a time.

This is mushy as shite so going back to lurking. Just got a little weird in the thread and I want it to go back to being a happy thread.

DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Aug 13, 2020

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The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S2ep21 - Comes the Inquisitor

“Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. How do you apologise to them?”
“I can’t.”
“Then I cannot forgive.”

G’kar railing on the Zocalo, struggling to make sure the people still acknowledge the Narns’ existence, to make sure they’re not as easily forgotten as the Markabs. And Vir watching over it all, his expression a mixed bag of potentials. The later meeting of Vir and G’Kar in the lift was more compelling than Delenn’s interrogation. Vir’s sincere apology is met with blood and the most uncomfortable of penetrating gazes. Ugh, Katsulas is so good, emoting through latex like it’s his own skin. His expression at “Then I cannot forgive.” is honestly amazing. The tone of voice says he is angry at the Centauri for what has happened, he cannot ever forgive those actions, but there’s a little something in there that I can’t help but read as him not blaming Vir personally for this at all, just all that Vir represents. It’s magical acting.

His side plot of basically setting up a resistance with the aid of the B5 crew (and in turn causing Sheridan to put the Rangers on active duty [what have they been doing up till now? They can’t all be watching and waiting.]) showed him off as a natural leader. Last episode said he was literally the last remaining shred of government the Narn had, and here he proves himself most capable.

The meeting with the arms dealer made me remember a point I’ve mildly thought about before, where some of the bit part actors absolutely look like someone’s friend they’ve managed to get onto set for a day and suddenly they’re getting fitted for wardrobe and given lines. Usually they’re playing thugs like the guy who held Jacobs captive in ‘Hunter, Prey’, but this one gets a little bit more meat. Hopefully the work helps pay for his tracheotomy.

Kosh wants to test Delenn’s resolve? I can actually follow Kosh’s logic, but that it’s more a test of Sheridan as well as Delenn, especially when she asked him not to interfere, is telegraphed slightly. The interrogation is an odd one in that Sebastian asserts things about Delenn that are completely not in her character at all, basically creating a bunch of straw men arguments, and coming from a false premise that doesn’t really fit her personality at all. The interrogation falls into torture remarkably quickly, and generally just feels pointless, just to get to the point of ‘I’m not doing this for fame or glory (which is a weird thing to want in this instance and falls apart the moment you think about it) and I’ll willingly die for the cause even if it’s not a “glorious death”. You can certainly argue that the motivations here are murky and alien, and make no sense from a human (or Minbari) point of view, I suppose, it just feels unsatisfying.

Spotting Sebastian as Jack the Ripper is an easy pull the moment he mentions he’s from 1888 (and I noticed a weird flub at the end where they mention murders in the East End, but Sheridan clearly mouths ‘West End’). More intriguing is why? Why would the Vorlons bother taking an incredibly sadistic serial killer from Earth and keep him on ice, just to revive him periodically to perform this odd task? There’s the explanation at the end that he was on a similar thought process of ‘I’m right, the world is wrong’ but even that doesn’t particularly jibe.

The more interesting information here is that the Vorlons also use human agents, like the Shadows. Sebastian is another Morden. But where the Shadows are the darkness, and the Vorlons are on the side of light, why do they employ someone like Sebastian? Are we being told that the Vorlons aren’t purely altruistic in their intentions? They have a greater plan and Sebastian is indicative of a ‘by any means necessary’ strategy which includes torturing your own allies to make sure they’re up to the task?

Also, he’s been in their service for 400 years, performing this task over and over, what if he’d found the chosen one in 1917 or 2005 or something? The Shadows would have presumably all been asleep still at that point. Would the Great War have consisted of a very one-sided bombing raid where they just glass Z’ha’dum from orbit?

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

Regarding a dialogue flub:

The_Doctor posted:


(and I noticed a weird flub at the end where they mention murders in the East End, but Sheridan clearly mouths ‘West End’).


IIRC when this was originally broadcast in the UK (scheduling quirks meant the last few episodes of each season were broadcast there before they were in the US) Sheridan indeed said West End - this was reported back to JMS on Usenet and he was able to get it corrected for all subsequent broadcasts.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


The_Doctor posted:

S2ep21 - Comes the Inquisitor

“Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. How do you apologise to them?”
“I can’t.”
“Then I cannot forgive.”

G’kar railing on the Zocalo, struggling to make sure the people still acknowledge the Narns’ existence, to make sure they’re not as easily forgotten as the Markabs. And Vir watching over it all, his expression a mixed bag of potentials. The later meeting of Vir and G’Kar in the lift was more compelling than Delenn’s interrogation. Vir’s sincere apology is met with blood and the most uncomfortable of penetrating gazes. Ugh, Katsulas is so good, emoting through latex like it’s his own skin. His expression at “Then I cannot forgive.” is honestly amazing. The tone of voice says he is angry at the Centauri for what has happened, he cannot ever forgive those actions, but there’s a little something in there that I can’t help but read as him not blaming Vir personally for this at all, just all that Vir represents. It’s magical acting.


What's particularly wonderful about the performance is that you can clearly sense how much G'Kar wishes that it were possible for Vir to be forgivable; that his question, ultimately, is not rhetorical, but also that he is not the same person we saw in early S1 where he would take pleasure in the discomfort (or worse) of any Centauri. He knows Vir means what he say, and he also knows that doesn't make a drat bit of difference, and he's not going to allow Vir comfort at the cost of his own principles. Just a really amazing piece of work, even without the prosthetic.

Stephen Furst told a story about this scene:
That was horrible for me. I'm telling you, he is such a good actor and it's even harder to act under rubber and these red lenses. I'm in the elevator and I'm nervous around him, the character. We're in the elevator and I'm just trying to avoid his eyes. He takes out a knife and I don't know what the hell he's going to do with a knife. He cuts his hand. Every drop of blood he goes, "Dead. Dead. Dead." Did the scene and they yell cut and I go, "I'm so sorry!" Tears were just streaming down my face! I was just, oh my god, I kept apologizing. Finally at lunch, Andreas said, "Get away already!" (from 20th anniversary conventions annotated panel transcripts book)

AARD VARKMAN
May 17, 1993




Narsham posted:

What's particularly wonderful about the performance is that you can clearly sense how much G'Kar wishes that it were possible for Vir to be forgivable; that his question, ultimately, is not rhetorical, but also that he is not the same person we saw in early S1 where he would take pleasure in the discomfort (or worse) of any Centauri. He knows Vir means what he say, and he also knows that doesn't make a drat bit of difference, and he's not going to allow Vir comfort at the cost of his own principles. Just a really amazing piece of work, even without the prosthetic.

Stephen Furst told a story about this scene:
That was horrible for me. I'm telling you, he is such a good actor and it's even harder to act under rubber and these red lenses. I'm in the elevator and I'm nervous around him, the character. We're in the elevator and I'm just trying to avoid his eyes. He takes out a knife and I don't know what the hell he's going to do with a knife. He cuts his hand. Every drop of blood he goes, "Dead. Dead. Dead." Did the scene and they yell cut and I go, "I'm so sorry!" Tears were just streaming down my face! I was just, oh my god, I kept apologizing. Finally at lunch, Andreas said, "Get away already!" (from 20th anniversary conventions annotated panel transcripts book)


drat, that's a fantastic story. I could definitely see how difficult it would be acting across from G'Kar, especially in that scene.

AARD VARKMAN
May 17, 1993




Season 2 TIER LIST


1. G'Kar - Obviously
2. Londo - Still an amazing character but definitely less likeable now, though that doesn't change my rankings.
3. Delenn - this one is a little tougher but her acting is still top notch and she is a babe :colbert:
3. Vir - didn't get used nearly enough, but has the most potential of the whole cast for becoming awesome.

Those are the easy ones.

5. Lennier - good scenes but not all that interesting this season
6. Sheridan - I like Boxleitner's acting a bunch and I'm happy with him as the station's commander.
7/8/9. Ivanova/Garibaldi/Franklin, no particular order. Garibaldi and Franklin have both improved significantly this season, Ivanova was kinda eh but still good.

Kosh remains unranked but with the revelation of the Vorlon, he's no longer S tier for me. Somewhere top 5 regardless.

Shoutout to Na'Toth, who presumably lost all her screen time due to the actress switch. The original was awesome and would have been great during the war/aftermath. But she appeared like twice in this season so off the list she goes, along with Talia.

E: Oh I forgot that Zack guy was billed as main cast this season. He can have 10th place.

AARD VARKMAN fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 13, 2020

AARD VARKMAN
May 17, 1993




Season 3 - Episode 4 - Passing through Gethsemane



hell yeah brad dourif! also i forgot to mention last time but lol @ the original draal actor being the head of the brotherhood.

Is that little figurine supposed to be impressive?

Ah. Hello Lyta. Not particularly surprising, and makes sense with Talia's actress leaving, to keep access to a psychic on B5 and the side of light.

Garibaldi salivating over brain wipes, wishing we could just murder people instead. God drat it Garibaldi.

Man, I was really hoping the new set for medical would include a replacement for the paperweight body scanner. No surprise that life on the Vorlon homeworld fixes your body up.

Given all the poo poo that's happened on this station I am going to be very mad if they don't take this wall blood seriously.


Okay, the fact that Lyta isn't beholden to Psy-Corps rules is awesome and I hope she abuses the poo poo out of it.

Cool explanation of the Minbari religious beliefs. We are the universe trying to understand itself. Carl Sagan, famous Minbari religious philosopher.

He was a Minbari not born of Minbari? I thought the Vorlons were just projecting/manipulating religions to suit themselves. If this show actually reveals that Jesus Christ was secretly a Vorlon, I'm going to lol forever.

This is feeling like a bit of a one-off episode meant to explore religious beliefs, which is fine, but a bit far off from the last like, 6 episodes.

Guessing all this freaking out from the Brother is that he's secretly the real New Vegas killer.

aaand.. reveal that they brain wipe new brothers (?) seems to confirm that.

oh ok a different brain wipe killer. now to find out what JMS thinks the right answer is to whether mind-wipes can do good or not

He had to be triggered in to remembering it by an evil psychic, so I guess mind-wipes are.... technically good?

Hell yeah Lyta using psychic powers. The fact that the Centauri are willing to just do psychic jobs like this proves she can do whatever the gently caress she wants now, without even the moral questions we'd have without it being an antagonistic psychic to cause the problem.

Interesting episode philosophically, though it doesn't really move us along much - apart from having a psychic who doesn't listen to psy-corps bullshit, which is pretty cool. Makes sense they'd immediately introduce her as someone who won't be on the station often.. half the plots of this show would be immediately resolved by an unrestrained psychic.

Also, Centauri psychics can just go around doing whatever they want without any kind of recourse from B5? When the same in reverse would have caught Londo's involvement with the shadows long ago? This episode raises some questions I don't know can be be answered satisfyingly. I can imagine agreements, etc., but the show has painted it in such a way that I would have thought a Centauri showing up and blasting negative telepathic thoughts at a Human for coin seems like a huge plot hole compared to the entire rest of the series.

cool gills lady, too bad I got spoiled on them :mad:

The fact that Londo showed up once just long enough to get poo poo on by Lyta makes it pretty clear this episodes message is "anyone can be redeemed, even Londo"

AARD VARKMAN fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 13, 2020

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



TheAardvark posted:

Season 3 - Episode 4 - Passing through Gethsemane



hell yeah brad dourif! also i forgot to mention last time but lol @ the original draal actor being the head of the brotherhood.


Production notes, spoilers up to 304:

Louis Turenne was meant to return as Draal in 220, but he had a minor stroke just before production began so they needed to replace him quickly with someone they already had a head mould for. W. Morgan Sheppard was available, but the Minbari makeup was too similar to the Soul Hunter makeup he'd originally appeared in. They had already cast John Schuck as G'Kar's uncle G'Sten, so they did a quick bait and switch to give him the role of Draal and put Sheppard in the Narn makeup. However, they hadn't forgotten Turenne, so JMS wrote the role of Brother Theo specifically for him to play when he recovered.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







Narsham posted:

What's particularly wonderful about the performance is that you can clearly sense how much G'Kar wishes that it were possible for Vir to be forgivable; that his question, ultimately, is not rhetorical, but also that he is not the same person we saw in early S1 where he would take pleasure in the discomfort (or worse) of any Centauri. He knows Vir means what he say, and he also knows that doesn't make a drat bit of difference, and he's not going to allow Vir comfort at the cost of his own principles. Just a really amazing piece of work, even without the prosthetic.

Stephen Furst told a story about this scene:
That was horrible for me. I'm telling you, he is such a good actor and it's even harder to act under rubber and these red lenses. I'm in the elevator and I'm nervous around him, the character. We're in the elevator and I'm just trying to avoid his eyes. He takes out a knife and I don't know what the hell he's going to do with a knife. He cuts his hand. Every drop of blood he goes, "Dead. Dead. Dead." Did the scene and they yell cut and I go, "I'm so sorry!" Tears were just streaming down my face! I was just, oh my god, I kept apologizing. Finally at lunch, Andreas said, "Get away already!" (from 20th anniversary conventions annotated panel transcripts book)


2x21

that's a nice insight, i agree. gkar and londo are magnificent.

hope and vaseline
Feb 13, 2001



I just started watching What We Do in the Shadows and someone here mentioned the similarities between Vir and Guillermo and they are dead on, it's so good

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I feel like them titling a Trek book this is slightly taking the piss. :argh:

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Wait until you hear about Deep Space 9.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!







hope and vaseline posted:

I just started watching What We Do in the Shadows and someone here mentioned the similarities between Vir and Guillermo and they are dead on, it's so good

Gonna tackle this over in the Elder Races thread, I think.

hope and vaseline
Feb 13, 2001



Yeah I haven't seen much of the show, about halfway through the first season, I just meant Guillermo's demeanor and personality are very similar to how Vir is. They're both comical in a similar way also

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



I think the main new viewers in this thread are past it already, but on the DVDs and probably therefore also Amazon streaming, the first couple of episodes of season 2 have an incorrect title sequence that displays a spoiler, while the version on Vudu has the correct sequence for these episodes.

Zat
Jan 15, 2008


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

I think the main new viewers in this thread are past it already, but on the DVDs and probably therefore also Amazon streaming, the first couple of episodes of season 2 have an incorrect title sequence that displays a spoiler, while the version on Vudu has the correct sequence for these episodes.

The PAL DVDs also have the correct title sequences. Only the NTSC DVDs have the wrong one in the first few episodes of season 2.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

I think the main new viewers in this thread are past it already, but on the DVDs and probably therefore also Amazon streaming, the first couple of episodes of season 2 have an incorrect title sequence that displays a spoiler, while the version on Vudu has the correct sequence for these episodes.

Yeah, I got spoiled that way. :smith:

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004








I don't remember if videogames has reached that point yet. Also, come back videogames!

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







Haven't seen him for a bit, but I'll encourage him to come back when I do.

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



The_Doctor posted:

Yeah, I got spoiled that way. :smith:

Sorry I couldn't post that sooner, we just got to that point in our rewatch and I hadn't remembered it until then.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S2Ep22 - The Fall of Night

“A spider, big as death and twice as ugly. When you fly past, it’s like you hear a scream in your mind.”

The scene at the start with Lennier and Vir is a really nice touch. The attachés’ common ground of being left out and how it... makes them nervous. (There’s a weird cut there when they turn back like something was snipped?) The whole conversation felt like coded dialogue for some reason, like spy clichés of ‘I have forgotten my umbrella’ ‘however the weather in Moscow is clement’. Were they passing information? Interesting how their experiences run parallel for both Minbari and Centauri, both cultures going through similar experiences, everything on the downward spiral.

The Centauri war expands onto other races’ space. G’kar was right! Now the Ministry of Peace show up to fall right into the Chamberlain trap with the exact same ‘Peace in our time’ line from when they thought they’d appeased Hitler. The episode ending with Centauri actively declaring war of several of the League feels like that wouldn’t go well for the Centauri if Londo isn’t going to bring in the Shadows any more. Fighting a war on several fronts is folly, as history will tell you, but is no one interested in history?

Keffer and the other pilot discussing the Shadow ship is great, pooling their information, working out things. Plus there’s a nice spooky note to it, returning to that feeling this series has evoked well up to now, that space is a deep, black sea full of the unknown and the mysterious things that live in it. I’d say it’s a shame Keffer bit it, but there wasn’t really anything to his character other than giving the starfury pilots a face. His final act was to doom the human race and kick off a war prematurely. Assuming Keffer is dead of course, and not captured by the Shadows. :ohdear:

Welles is particularly slimy, coming across as a pound shop Kyle Maclachlan. And Zack finally realises what Night Watch actually is, with carting off shopkeepers for thought crimes. “Ohhh they’re fascists.” Good job Kenickie. They’ve got no problem attempting to openly recruit Ivanova (would they have given her the Captain post if he refused to apologise?), and make no bones about being quite fash and gestapo-esque. But Lantz (higher up in the MoP) doesn’t seem to know what they do? Or just had never concerned himself with them? Seeing EarthGov go full facist is quite depressing right now, as you know <gestures at everything happening>. :smith:

Chekhov’s defence grid finally pays off! The Narn cruiser plot was surprisingly taut, keeping it a secret up until one of B5’s own crew sells them out. The ensuing battle works really well, and I’m glad the Narns got away (to where?).

B5 has always been neutral territory, and now for an increasingly authoritarian Earth to start pushing its weight around (combined with the various other incidents of being poo poo on by EarthGov), I return to my earlier this season thoughts of B5 cutting ties with Earth somehow. Plus with B5’s role as the forces of light base, this next season is going to be exciting.

Londo all alone in the zen garden is a good metaphor as all the other races talk together around him. But the important thing here is I CAN’T BELIEVE I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE VORLONS. loving ANGELS. ಠ_ಠ

I really liked the concept that the Vorlons generate some kind of telepathic filter that shows off each race’s version of them. Although, as Sheridan said ‘to manipulate us into acting the right way’. More intriguing is that Londo apparently saw nothing. Does that extend to all Centauri? Did the Vorlons not visit them? Or is it a telepathic invisibility thing like the Shadows project? Each race manipulates the younger races around them to perceive (or not) them as they choose. So, interestingly the question remains the same, what do the Vorlons look like? We’ve seen the encounter suit, we’ve seen the being of light, so what’s the reality? How many more layers?

Why did that Centauri plant the bomb on the train? Revenge against Sheridan? Was he acting under orders from the Centaurum? Were there not easier methods to dispatch someone? For a race as court intrigue-obsessed as the Centauri, a bomb seems way too loud and messy. A knife in the gut or poison feels like much more their MO. I appreciate why from a dramatic point of view, JMS needed Sheridan to fall so Kosh could fly up and catch him, but from an in universe view, it just raises questions.

So this was a hell of a season finale. Setup and action and answering questions and inviting more and a sort of cliffhanger where I just want to know where it goes from here! Ok, it’s 2:30am, enough words. Bedtime. Good show, enjoying myself immensely. :suspense:

AARD VARKMAN
May 17, 1993




The_Doctor posted:

S2Ep22 - The Fall of Night

“A spider, big as death and twice as ugly. When you fly past, it’s like you hear a scream in your mind.”

The scene at the start with Lennier and Vir is a really nice touch. The attachés’ common ground of being left out and how it... makes them nervous. (There’s a weird cut there when they turn back like something was snipped?) The whole conversation felt like coded dialogue for some reason, like spy clichés of ‘I have forgotten my umbrella’ ‘however the weather in Moscow is clement’. Were they passing information? Interesting how their experiences run parallel for both Minbari and Centauri, both cultures going through similar experiences, everything on the downward spiral.

The Centauri war expands onto other races’ space. G’kar was right! Now the Ministry of Peace show up to fall right into the Chamberlain trap with the exact same ‘Peace in our time’ line from when they thought they’d appeased Hitler. The episode ending with Centauri actively declaring war of several of the League feels like that wouldn’t go well for the Centauri if Londo isn’t going to bring in the Shadows any more. Fighting a war on several fronts is folly, as history will tell you, but is no one interested in history?

Keffer and the other pilot discussing the Shadow ship is great, pooling their information, working out things. Plus there’s a nice spooky note to it, returning to that feeling this series has evoked well up to now, that space is a deep, black sea full of the unknown and the mysterious things that live in it. I’d say it’s a shame Keffer bit it, but there wasn’t really anything to his character other than giving the starfury pilots a face. His final act was to doom the human race and kick off a war prematurely. Assuming Keffer is dead of course, and not captured by the Shadows. :ohdear:

Welles is particularly slimy, coming across as a pound shop Kyle Maclachlan. And Zack finally realises what Night Watch actually is, with carting off shopkeepers for thought crimes. “Ohhh they’re fascists.” Good job Kenickie. They’ve got no problem attempting to openly recruit Ivanova (would they have given her the Captain post if he refused to apologise?), and make no bones about being quite fash and gestapo-esque. But Lantz (higher up in the MoP) doesn’t seem to know what they do? Or just had never concerned himself with them? Seeing EarthGov go full facist is quite depressing right now, as you know <gestures at everything happening>. :smith:

Chekhov’s defence grid finally pays off! The Narn cruiser plot was surprisingly taut, keeping it a secret up until one of B5’s own crew sells them out. The ensuing battle works really well, and I’m glad the Narns got away (to where?).

B5 has always been neutral territory, and now for an increasingly authoritarian Earth to start pushing its weight around (combined with the various other incidents of being poo poo on by EarthGov), I return to my earlier this season thoughts of B5 cutting ties with Earth somehow. Plus with B5’s role as the forces of light base, this next season is going to be exciting.

Londo all alone in the zen garden is a good metaphor as all the other races talk together around him. But the important thing here is I CAN’T BELIEVE I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE VORLONS. loving ANGELS. ಠ_ಠ

I really liked the concept that the Vorlons generate some kind of telepathic filter that shows off each race’s version of them. Although, as Sheridan said ‘to manipulate us into acting the right way’. More intriguing is that Londo apparently saw nothing. Does that extend to all Centauri? Did the Vorlons not visit them? Or is it a telepathic invisibility thing like the Shadows project? Each race manipulates the younger races around them to perceive (or not) them as they choose. So, interestingly the question remains the same, what do the Vorlons look like? We’ve seen the encounter suit, we’ve seen the being of light, so what’s the reality? How many more layers?

Why did that Centauri plant the bomb on the train? Revenge against Sheridan? Was he acting under orders from the Centaurum? Were there not easier methods to dispatch someone? For a race as court intrigue-obsessed as the Centauri, a bomb seems way too loud and messy. A knife in the gut or poison feels like much more their MO. I appreciate why from a dramatic point of view, JMS needed Sheridan to fall so Kosh could fly up and catch him, but from an in universe view, it just raises questions.

So this was a hell of a season finale. Setup and action and answering questions and inviting more and a sort of cliffhanger where I just want to know where it goes from here! Ok, it’s 2:30am, enough words. Bedtime. Good show, enjoying myself immensely. :suspense:


I hate you for getting the Childhood's End guess right. I don't know why I was so resistant against it. I think I had totally convinced myself the Vorlon were AI.

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007

"I think he's watching us..."

"No, it's just the Mountain Peeks."
(Source)



The_Doctor posted:


I really liked the concept that the Vorlons generate some kind of telepathic filter that shows off each race’s version of them. Although, as Sheridan said ‘to manipulate us into acting the right way’. More intriguing is that Londo apparently saw nothing. Does that extend to all Centauri? Did the Vorlons not visit them? Or is it a telepathic invisibility thing like the Shadows project? Each race manipulates the younger races around them to perceive (or not) them as they choose. So, interestingly the question remains the same, what do the Vorlons look like? We’ve seen the encounter suit, we’ve seen the being of light, so what’s the reality? How many more layers?



Granted I'm going off 25 year old memories at this point, so it's entirely possible I don't remember dialogue being specific in this regard, but I always interpreted the Vorlon reveal as not so much active telepathic manipulation as the reason they look like angels, but more as they literally look like angels and that's why all these alien peoples have angel legends, and hence why they're all certain they saw their race specific angel. The whole God made us in His likeness thing. A human wouldn't see a Narn angel, because why would an angel look like a Narn? And vice versa. I realize this interpretation doesn't really stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny, but we are talking about angels here.

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


I think a lot about gratitude. This thread and the insightful analysis ad and reactions the young watchers have is something that I often am grateful for.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



The Fall of Night: I have some issues with JMS's writing, but the man is a master of pacing. There's a lot that happens in this episode and none of it feels rushed. I think a lot of television writers would have trouble pulling that off half as well.

TheAardvark posted:

I hate you for getting the Childhood's End guess right. I don't know why I was so resistant against it. I think I had totally convinced myself the Vorlon were AI.

If you go back and watch the Vorlon stuff from season 2 after you know that, you'll see a lot of hints in that direction. It's not obvious if you don't already know it, but it's definitely not out of left field either.

ultrafilter fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Aug 18, 2020

adhuin
Sep 15, 2008

Take over the World!



The_Doctor posted:

S2Ep22 - The Fall of Night

Welles is particularly slimy, coming across as a pound shop Kyle Maclachlan. And Zack finally realises what Night Watch actually is, with carting off shopkeepers for thought crimes. “Ohhh they’re fascists.” Good job Kenickie. They’ve got no problem attempting to openly recruit Ivanova (would they have given her the Captain post if he refused to apologise?), and make no bones about being quite fash and gestapo-esque. But Lantz (higher up in the MoP) doesn’t seem to know what they do? Or just had never concerned himself with them? Seeing EarthGov go full facist is quite depressing right now, as you know <gestures at everything happening>. :smith:



Current times and viewers experiences really change the scene.
Late '90s were such an optimistic era and fasc-ish earth felt such a fresh take on a scifi setting for a teen me.
Today the optimistic Trek-ish future would be the freshest take.

Action Jacktion
Jun 3, 2003


The_Doctor posted:

S2Ep22 - The Fall of Night

“A spider, big as death and twice as ugly. When you fly past, it’s like you hear a scream in your mind.”
I always liked that the characters are actually able to hear the Shadow ship sound effect (somehow).

quote:

Welles is particularly slimy, coming across as a pound shop Kyle Maclachlan. And Zack finally realises what Night Watch actually is, with carting off shopkeepers for thought crimes. “Ohhh they’re fascists.” Good job Kenickie. They’ve got no problem attempting to openly recruit Ivanova (would they have given her the Captain post if he refused to apologise?), and make no bones about being quite fash and gestapo-esque. But Lantz (higher up in the MoP) doesn’t seem to know what they do? Or just had never concerned himself with them? Seeing EarthGov go full facist is quite depressing right now, as you know <gestures at everything happening>. :smith:

Lantz comes across as a "useful idiot" who just does what he's supposed to. And he thinks he really will bring peace through the the non-agression pact because why would the Centauri lie? He's kind of sad. Welles on the other hand knows he's doing bad things and doesn't care. (By the way, he's played by the same actor who played the Minbari Neroon in a couple of previous episodes.)

quote:

But the important thing here is I CAN’T BELIEVE I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE VORLONS. loving ANGELS. ಠ_ಠ

I figured out the Vorlons from the line about everyone recognizing them, since lots of cultures have legends of angelic creatures. (I missed the sound of wings when Kosh reveals himself before.)

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Action Jacktion posted:

. (By the way, he's played by the same actor who played the Minbari Neroon in a couple of previous episodes.)

Ohhh that’s why he looks familiar. No big bone crest throwing me off.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



If anyone was wondering, I've heard from VideoGames. He'll be back, have no fear.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







Jedit posted:

If anyone was wondering, I've heard from VideoGames. He'll be back, have no fear.

:yayclod:

Whybird
Aug 2, 2009

Phaiston have long avoided the tightly competetive defence sector, but the IRDA Act 2052 has given us the freedom we need to bring out something really special.

https://team-robostar.itch.io/robostar




Nap Ghost

adhuin posted:

Current times and viewers experiences really change the scene.
Late '90s were such an optimistic era and fasc-ish earth felt such a fresh take on a scifi setting for a teen me.
Today the optimistic Trek-ish future would be the freshest take.


I don't know, I think B5 is still optimistic because the implication is that bastions of good can and should fight the slide to fascism. What's really unpleasant about most of today's media isn't that fascism is depicted, it's that it's depicted as a necessary evil that is more efficient and powerful than democracy.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!








B5 was made in a time when, in shows:
* torture is a thing that only villains do; if a main character does it then it’s evidence they are going off the rails;
* terrorism justifies a police response not a military one;
* people in general are assumed to be working together for the common good most of the time;
* almost all differences between people can be worked out given patience;
* good people see outsiders and foreigners as strange and interesting until they act otherwise and only bad people see them as a threat.

There’s a shared cultural understanding that has been eroded in the 30 years since the show was made, and as with so many things, the watershed moment is 9/11.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S3ep01 - Matters of Honour

“Believe what you will, until experience changes your mind.”

Alright, season 3, lets gooooo!

Opening scene with Sheridan and Kosh, the latter says the longest and most directly coherent sentence yet. Being seen by so many was a strain? So Kosh had to individually project multiple psychic versions of himself tailored to each person and their race and how he/Vorlons are perceived by them. Christ. Just making himself invisible would have probably been easier. Also, I think Kosh was being... funny in this scene?

“The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed.” :ohdear:

Londo trying to break ties with Morden and his friends. Did he really think it was going to be that easy? The scene where he recalls his vision/dream is the first chink in his incredibly happy demeanour. I loved Morden’s little PowerPoint presentation with completely unnecessary flame effects. Oh you big drama queen, Morden.

It’s interesting to note that Keffer’s video is the first time either Sheridan, Delenn, or Ivanova have actually seen a Shadow ship, considering how prevalent they were last season.

The alien bartender :allears:

I couldn’t help but notice Marcus’s very tailored Ranger outfit, when every other Ranger we’ve seen up till now has been drowning in giant robes and cloaks. His fighting pike is ‘a gift from a friend’, which means it’s drat good odds to be Sinclair.

Ooh, new ship! I’ll leave aside the obvious USS Defiant comparison, noting this ship seems to be much more magical. The White Star definitely still fits in with the Minbari design aesthetic, no matter what they say about it being unique and untraceable. It has the fins from the back end of the Minbari fighter, but much bigger. The weird organic bits on the bridge like glistening spinal bones and innards are incredibly off-putting and I love it. It also seemed odd that Delenn didn’t appear to know anything about the ship until she was wandering around it explaining its schematics to Sheridan. I guess it’s based somewhere else away from B5 since it didn’t appear to be in orbit or docked or what have you? Size-wise, they talk about it being small, but presumably there’s a shuttle bay or something for them to dock with?

Why do the Shadows care about the Rangers? At this point the Rangers are doing what exactly? Is it enough that they merely know about the Shadows returning? The army of light at this point has one (1) 5 mile long station with several starfury squadrons, one (1) smallish ship of Minbari-Vorlon construction, and several (like 100?) Ranger dudes in LARP capes. The Minbari govt is aware of them (and apparently not super keen on them), and the Drazi govt is aware enough of them to allow a training camp on a small planet at one end of their space. They’re somewhat openly recruiting from the fact that Marcus’s brother was killed (in a open Shadow attack? That seems a rather stupid tactic for them, considering they’ve been trying to keep themselves hidden...), and Marcus managed to just go and join up too. They’re watching, passing messages, and running errands. What training are they doing? The Shadows fight in big, terrifying, and virtually indestructible ships (we presume the bonehead manoeuvre worked?), and Marcus has a extending stick.

Huh, EarthGov is based out of Geneva, rather than the US. That said, it’s a very small dome. That said, OH poo poo, Morden right there working with (a) EarthGov (which seems to consist of cabals upon cabals at this point), and (b) Psi-Corps (who are basically the puppet masters of EarthGov anyway). ‘The program’ raises some terrifying possibilities. Morden and the Shadows seem to have issue with telepaths (being able to see them for them for one, probably some other things) so I’m really intrigued to see what that’s going to be.

Strong opening, and the CGI looked a little better in places? I hate the new opening titles with the floating mugshots.

ZRM
Nov 25, 2007


The_Doctor posted:

S3ep01 - Matters of Honour



Alright, season 3, lets gooooo!


“The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed.” :ohdear:



Duh duh DUH Duh duh DUH :discourse:

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




The CG does get better as the show goes on. IIRC S3 is where it makes a big jump and at least the ships look great from now on. Still kind of low-res texturing but B5 CG has lots of color and really good composition, so it still looks good despite the obvious technical limitations.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Re:ship size It has a bay big enough to hold a couple of Minbari shuttles so while it’s small compared to an Omega or Sharlin, it’s still pretty big.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Grand Fromage posted:

The CG does get better as the show goes on. IIRC S3 is where it makes a big jump and at least the ships look great from now on. Still kind of low-res texturing but B5 CG has lots of color and really good composition, so it still looks good despite the obvious technical limitations.

The mid-90s was a time of pretty rapid progress in graphics technology. Even though the show's budget and production schedule didn't change too much, what they could get with it did.

AARD VARKMAN
May 17, 1993




agreed on both the good CG and awful opening credits. they feel supremely out of place

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


“No expense spared! We bought you another Amiga this season.”

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Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

My problem with the Season 3 cast credits is that there seems to be no consistency with how they’re directed - some of them are trying to be stoic and straight faced, Vir looks terrified and then you have Dr Franklin and Zack Allen grinning away!

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