Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





The_Doctor posted:

And my take on how B5 hyperspace works is ‘don’t think about it’.

The show is pretty good about having hyperspace follow the rules consistently. I'm pretty sure the rules they laid out were at least physically plausible based on the physics of the mid-90s, but the jumpgates were designed to make the story work. Beyond those and instantaneous communication with faraway places, the human technology shown was all things that could realistically be made to work.

The military aspects of the show were generally realistic, with the huge exception of having ships fight each other within visual range. That's not how anyone even then thought that space battles would work, but you kinda have to do it that way to create something that's interesting to watch.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




B5 hyperspace is simple I think. It's an alternate spatial dimension or universe where distances are shorter. It has no features whatsoever so you have to navigate using beacons from jump gates. There's a current in it that gradually pulls everything in one direction if you have no propulsion. And that's pretty much it.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


The_Doctor posted:

Mine the area directly in front of the jumpgate. :colbert:

Calm down there Rom

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

People always talk about brining wormholes but has anyone tried brining wormholes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPMykKojRQ8

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S3ep11 - Ceremonies of Light and Dark

“Tell the ships, we’re open for business.”

Halfway through the series! :toot: And at that halfway point, everything’s changed. No longer part of Earth, and new uniforms for the command staff. I’d been wondering when they’d turn up since they’re very prevalent in show merch/promotional images. Exactly halfway through the show’s run, we’re now in part 2 I guess. The line above served as a nice mirror to Takashima’s final line in the pilot movie.

The station is now coming to terms with Babylexit. It’s amazing the remaining Nightwatch have gone undetected, because they’re clearly nuts. Like homicidally off their rockers. So, you know, true to life. It’s not about change, it’s about wanting to kill people who aren’t straight white men. The meeting looked an awful lot like a Proud Boys/Boog hangout, and their plan seemed particularly daft. Right wing splinter group takes hostage, expects entire force to capitulate. No, sorry.

The hostage call to the crew seemed weirdly dumb. Garibaldi or Ivanova at least should have been able to look at a room that size with the very unique large blue ringed things on the floor and go ‘oh that’s part of oxygen recyc, let’s start looking there’. That it takes them that long to listen to the background sound, and slowly piece together, plus Marcus coming in at the right moment to give them the other half of the info. But I guess forensics aren’t high on their skill set.

The rebirth ceremony was a nice touch, even if some of the confessions felt weaker than others. I’m giggling imagining Delenn puzzling over Franklin’s confession as he left. “I might have a problem? That’s it? With what? His grin door sticks sometimes? With one of his staff? What kind of problem?!” Also yay Ivanova/Talia onscreen confirmation. No little pieces of fruit this time.

Londo being a magnificent bastard with Refa. Did he even really poison him? It genuinely doesn’t matter, it’s like Sinclair’s bit with G’kar and the transmitter way back. It’s good insurance either way.

Lol at the way Delenn just walks into the super secure password reset. And the comedy’ AI beat doesn’t really go anywhere. Harlan Ellison is no Holly. :colbert:

Marcus beating up an entire bar to get info seems like overkill. And then Lennier busts in with his fedora and his pure, perfect love for Delenn. Oh dear. :cripes:

Not bad, some bits better than others. It’s all downhill from here in this second half of the show, right? :imunfunny:

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





So now that you're halfway through, where do you think this is going?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


ultrafilter posted:

So now that you're halfway through, where do you think this is going?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


But seriously, I’m guessing the Shadow war will occupy the rest of the season at least, probably some/most of the next. The opening narration talks of ‘the year of the Shadow War’ and they’re not actually at war yet, although it’s drawing very close on the horizon. Wrapping up the aggressive Centauri expansion soon if Refa plays ball with Londo’s request to break off ties with the Shadows. Psi-corps will be in there somewhere, being tied up with the Shadows. Maybe taking the Shadows out will remove a large amount of Bester & co’s power. Clark’s fascist grip on Earth obviously needs dealing with, but that’s a much more insidious beast to kill, but they’re tied to Psi-corps as well, so it might all fall like a house of cards.

Post that, I don’t know. More exploration of the Vorlons would be interesting.

We’ve got things to look towards, namely Londo as Emperor, and G’kar losing an eye. Morden’s head on a pike would be nice.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

*warble warble* ~interesting~ *warble warble*

Dalael
Oct 14, 2014
Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Babylon 5 was good when it came out but really sucks on rewatch and has not aged at all.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







I disagree, it is what it is but the strong points are still strong.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!





Just finished a rewatch with my kids, and it worked well for all of us.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Dalael posted:

Babylon 5 was good when it came out but really sucks on rewatch and has not aged at all.

Counterpoint: I’m enjoying it immensely, and it’s been oddly prescient in places. Occasionally it looks more than a little ropey, but I’m a Doctor Who fan, and that’s my bread and butter. A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Qwertycoatl
Dec 31, 2008



I only started watching it this year but I think it's aged pretty well. Its concerns are generally either pretty timeless or extremely relevant in 2020, and on the visual effects side it obviously hasn't blown me away but on the other hand there are only a few times it's pulled me out of the story to think "this looks bad"

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I'd recommend leaving this discussion to the blind watchers. We don't want anyone accidentally hinting at something they shouldn't.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




I think it's fair to say the effects often suffer from being rendered on a series of toasters in 1995 and a lot of the set design in particular looks cheap. But there's a lot more to a show than the visuals.

Now and then it aggressively reminds you it's the 90s too. Whether that's a feature or bug is entirely subjective.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Now I’m halfway through season 3, the CGI looks a hell of a lot better than it did S1. The only time it goes back to terrible again is when they’re combining a live action shot with CG.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




It definitely improves throughout, and I think the artistry of the scenes make up for a lot of the rough edges of the effects. But I'm not going to fault anybody who thinks the CGI looks rough, it was 25 years ago so of course it does.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





The mid-90s were a time of tremendous progress in computer graphics, and the same budget would get you a lot more in 1996 than in 1994.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


B5 is also firmly in the subgenre of theatrical sci-fi, like classic Trek or the original Twilight Zone. Star Wars is absolutely about effects, though not necessarily exclusively so, and it would never attempt something like Trek's "Spectre of the Gun" episode, where the effects were terrible but that wasn't the point.

Dinging B5 on the quality of its effects is like complaining that a Shakespeare play doesn't have any car chases. I'd argue that most of the flaws in S1 are connected with one or two of the directors being in "action" mode, perhaps in part because they thought the dialogue was bullshit. Yes, if you ignore the reason for which the episode exists and concentrate your time on trying to do something you lack the resources to do, the resulting episode doesn't come out very well. So while it's true that an episode like Severed Dreams is great, and that the effects and action portions of the episode are all effective, the heart of the episode is about characters, choices, changes, and relationships.

One might compare with classic Trek's "Balance of Terror." There's action, there's space battles, but every single important thing in the episode has to do with characterization, decision-making, and character conflict. B5 allows characterization and decisions to develop and resonate across five full seasons instead of being episodic.

SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.

Grimey Drawer

Narsham posted:

B5 is also firmly in the subgenre of theatrical sci-fi, like classic Trek or the original Twilight Zone. Star Wars is absolutely about effects, though not necessarily exclusively so, and it would never attempt something like Trek's "Spectre of the Gun" episode, where the effects were terrible but that wasn't the point.

Dinging B5 on the quality of its effects is like complaining that a Shakespeare play doesn't have any car chases. I'd argue that most of the flaws in S1 are connected with one or two of the directors being in "action" mode, perhaps in part because they thought the dialogue was bullshit. Yes, if you ignore the reason for which the episode exists and concentrate your time on trying to do something you lack the resources to do, the resulting episode doesn't come out very well. So while it's true that an episode like Severed Dreams is great, and that the effects and action portions of the episode are all effective, the heart of the episode is about characters, choices, changes, and relationships.

One might compare with classic Trek's "Balance of Terror." There's action, there's space battles, but every single important thing in the episode has to do with characterization, decision-making, and character conflict. B5 allows characterization and decisions to develop and resonate across five full seasons instead of being episodic.

Yeah, I find that the low-budget effects actually gives the show a certain timeless look, since it feels kinda like watching a stage play. You just need to fill in the details with your imagination and not take the tiny sets too literally.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

The_Doctor posted:

Now I’m halfway through season 3, the CGI looks a hell of a lot better than it did S1. The only time it goes back to terrible again is when they’re combining a live action shot with CG.

This, as I understand the situation, is due to the same missing masters issues that make an HD remaster impossible.

Of course, different people involved give different reasons why that is, so confirmed details are sketchy.

Zat
Jan 15, 2008


Lemniscate Blue posted:

This, as I understand the situation, is due to the same missing masters issues that make an HD remaster impossible.

Of course, different people involved give different reasons why that is, so confirmed details are sketchy.

Still, the 4:3 version on Vudu makes those composite scenes look a lot better than the widescreen version even though they're probably from the same transfer, just not zoomed in and cropped. I can't recommend the Vudu version enough to anyone who has that option.

Ayin
Jan 6, 2010

Have a great day.


The_Doctor posted:

The only time it goes back to terrible again is when they’re combining a live action shot with CG.
The crop+zoom treatment is a cruel joke and I am still mad about the dvds.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Narsham posted:

...Trek's "Spectre of the Gun" episode, where the effects were terrible...

Wait, what ? That episode is aggressively stylistic, but it's gorgeous. It's not trying to look realistic, and that is the point - the whole environment is a construct, a stage for a morality play. It may not be the most visually appealing episode, but it's certainly the most effective use of design in TOS.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!



mllaneza posted:

Wait, what ? That episode is aggressively stylistic, but it's gorgeous. It's not trying to look realistic, and that is the point - the whole environment is a construct, a stage for a morality play. It may not be the most visually appealing episode, but it's certainly the most effective use of design in TOS.

Yeah but it only happened that way because the original plan to film on some regular western style sets fell through. It's much better the way it aired, but that wasn't the original plan.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Ayin posted:

The crop+zoom treatment is a cruel joke and I am still mad about the dvds.

You can at least understand the crop and zoom - B5 was shot in 16:9 preservation but the CGI was rendered only in 4:3 to save time and money, so they couldn't do a full widescreen release without remastering the effects - but there were non-CGI shots in a couple of S5 episodes that were stretched from 4:3 to 16:9. That's just unforgivable laziness.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


mllaneza posted:

Wait, what ? That episode is aggressively stylistic, but it's gorgeous. It's not trying to look realistic, and that is the point - the whole environment is a construct, a stage for a morality play. It may not be the most visually appealing episode, but it's certainly the most effective use of design in TOS.

I agree. I also like the effects in B5. But they are not always “good” effects for a value of good that’s more concerned with hyper-realism than theatricality. Some people hate that episode either because they don’t appreciate the difference or they don’t like theater.

My point was that classic Trek and B5 fit into a theatrical tradition. Compare to the “new” Star Trek movie franchise, which definitely does not fall into the same tradition. “This is a big fight scene with effects and Kirk on a motorcycle” doesn’t compute in classic Trek (plus there’s not enough shirt-ripping).

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I just found this in a box at home. I have the vaguest memory of it being in a collection of trading cards my dad bought once.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!



The_Doctor posted:

I just found this in a box at home. I have the vaguest memory of it being in a collection of trading cards my dad bought once.



Wow. The shrunken-down version totally looked (to me) like someone photoshopped Ivanova onto a Crucifixion painting. The halo, the pose, everything.

I never noticed that visual parallel before now.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



ConfusedUs posted:

Wow. The shrunken-down version totally looked (to me) like someone photoshopped Ivanova onto a Crucifixion painting. The halo, the pose, everything.

I never noticed that visual parallel before now.

S1: It's actually the crop that's creating the parallel. The control mechanism of the Great Machine is based on Vitruvian Man.

And Doc, congrats on your money find. As I recall there were only 100 of each of the signed B5 S2 trading cards.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Jedit posted:

S1: It's actually the crop that's creating the parallel. The control mechanism of the Great Machine is based on Vitruvian Man.

And Doc, congrats on your money find. As I recall there were only 100 of each of the signed B5 S2 trading cards.

Oh, I assumed whoever had the card before had got Christian to sign it at a con or something. Huh, neat.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



The_Doctor posted:

Oh, I assumed whoever had the card before had got Christian to sign it at a con or something. Huh, neat.

It could be - I'd do a Google search to be sure, I was posting in a few minutes before firing up the work PC (God bless WFH, I'm in a meeting). But I'm pretty sure that was the image used for her autograph card.

Epinephrine
Nov 7, 2008


While we're waiting for a reaction to 3x12, add me to the list of posters who have been inspired to do a rewatch because of this thread. Keep it up!

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~



The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Hey thread! I’ve just moved so haven’t been in a position to watch any episodes lately. Hopefully soon though, when I’m settled.

The Alpha Centauri
Feb 15, 2019



Nice flex

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

sebmojo posted:

I disagree, it is what it is but the strong points are still strong.

Yah, it IS 90s as gently caress, but mostly in a good way.

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Grand Fromage posted:

B5 hyperspace is simple I think. It's an alternate spatial dimension or universe where distances are shorter. It has no features whatsoever so you have to navigate using beacons from jump gates. There's a current in it that gradually pulls everything in one direction if you have no propulsion. And that's pretty much it.
Also there are issues with visibility and whatnot (hence the need for beacons, and rumours of things hiding in there).

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Hey Aardvark, are you still watching?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply