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Valve Steam Deck
Jul 18, 2004



Melman v2



TK-42-1 posted:

45 minutes for a single frame. It’s bonkers how far we’ve come.
Still takes that long or longer, just at much higher quality and resolution




MikusR posted:

I will take any B5 CGI over the vomit inducing BSG shaky-cam. Also I hope there is a special place in hell for whoever had the idea to fast forward the whole episode during intro.
Gerry Anderson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SpX8bVEmJo

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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



The United States posted:

[video type="youtube"]WlDaygRhrg8ideo]

Breaking your link. Please don't post videos with any kind of spoiler for the show in the Blind Watch thread. I only posted the jumpgate video because I knew it was spoiler free (and you can see what I wanted to show in the thumbnail).

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







Jedit posted:

Breaking your link. Please don't post videos with any kind of spoiler for the show in the Blind Watch thread. I only posted the jumpgate video because I knew it was spoiler free (and you can see what I wanted to show in the thumbnail).

i took it out. take general b5 chat over to the other thread :)

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



sebmojo posted:

i took it out. take general b5 chat over to the other thread :)

I think it's OK to discuss the quality of the CGI here, especially in the context of people coming new to the show and thinking it looks like rear end. It's when you start saying "but watch this season 7 clip, the Hurgleflarg ship destroying Babylon 6 looks amazing" that there's a problem.

(Note to all blind watchers: there is no season 7, don't worry that you missed it.)

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





For a remaster you can add polygons to the models, pixels to the textures, logic to the shaders, but don't you dare touch the composition or animation.

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


mllaneza posted:

For a remaster you can add polygons to the models, pixels to the textures, logic to the shaders, but don't you dare touch the composition or animation.

The main thread has a bunch of clips where exactly this has been done.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004








Doctor Zero posted:

Jesus a 12 gig 486. That was some serious storage at the time. And no, this isn’t sarcasm. I worked for a phone book company whose entire company was stored on a terabyte (actually one and a quarter) storage array. That was millions of dollars.

The first time I upgraded my hard drive, I went from a 10 meg platter drive to a 40 meg. And I told my friend "holy poo poo I will *NEVER* need to upgrade gain"

Yes I'm old why do you ask?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



CainFortea posted:

The first time I upgraded my hard drive, I went from a 10 meg platter drive to a 40 meg. And I told my friend "holy poo poo I will *NEVER* need to upgrade gain"

Yes I'm old why do you ask?

I started feeling weird when I got a new PC that had more RAM than my first PC had hard drive space.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


The first computer I used was my dad's BBC Master, which had a hard drive capacity of zero bytes

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







The bbc version of Defender slapped

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



MrL_JaKiri posted:

The first computer I used was my dad's BBC Master, which had a hard drive capacity of zero bytes

That's why I said my first PC. My first computer was a ZX81.

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019
:discourse:


i think my first ever exposure to Babylon 5 was a render of one of the triangular raider fighters in the back of an amiga gaming magazine when i was a kid

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Jedit posted:

That's why I said my first PC. My first computer was a ZX81.

Should have said IBM Compatible :colbert:

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





Just watched "Mind War" and I'm sorry I burst out laughing at the end.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Lawman 0 posted:

Just watched "Mind War" and I'm sorry I burst out laughing at the end.

No need to apologise for that.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



Hello there B5 blind watch thread! I'm Powered Descent. I've been meaning to check out this show for a couple of decades now, so today my girlfriend and I finally sat down and watched the first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line. I'll be trying to react to B5 as its own thing, but seeing as we're both HUGE fans of Deep Space Nine, some comparisons are inevitable. Anyway, here are my reactions, more or less in the order I thought them during the viewing.


1. Holy cow, you can SEE how low the budget was. I may have been spoiled by Star Trek for my expectations of 90s sci-fi production values. The sets and lighting, the filming, it's all barely above soap opera level. About the only thing that doesn't look cheap is the alien makeup, which somehow is top notch. (With the possible exception of the sideways-mohawk Space Hungarians.) Still, I refuse to hold the show's frugality against it. A good story can be compellingly told with cardboard sets, after all.

2. Man, those were some awkward-rear end exposition dumps right at the beginning. But as a lifelong sci-fi fan, I'm used to those, and honestly I'll take a good old-fashioned infodump over the recent trend of the super gradual season-long reveal of backstory for no other reason than to artificially prolong a mystery.

3. Why can't the telepath tell why someone doesn't like her? I mean, having telepathy and all. (Addendum, later on: oh, so I guess she has to touch a person to read them.)

4. Well now, the be-mohawked Centauri aliens are certainly playing to the back row, aren't they? I certainly wouldn't accuse either of them of underacting. (I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

5. So they solved the A plot (the Narn attack on the colony world) thanks to the B plot (it turns out the pirates are buying their weapons from the Narn). Good on them for bringing the threads together, but it's still kind of an unsatisfying ending since it's really a total coincidence. The two chains of events were unrelated except for both happening to involve Narn.

Overall reaction: I give this episode 2 out of 5 Babylons, and I'm being a little generous with that because it's not unusual for pilot episodes to be kind of wonky. I can see how the characters could have some potential, but this episode was... kind of dire. I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?


P.S. Are the Narn from the planet Narnia? :buddy: (I figure I'm the one millionth person to make that obvious joke. What's my prize?)

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Powered Descent posted:

(I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

This is a good way to think of the entire series, really.

Powered Descent posted:

I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?

Oh yes it does.

If you've watched through all of TNG, you should have no problem getting through B5's rough patches. Nowhere near as much, and nowhere near as bad.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Powered Descent posted:

Overall reaction: I give this episode 2 out of 5 Babylons, and I'm being a little generous with that because it's not unusual for pilot episodes to be kind of wonky. I can see how the characters could have some potential, but this episode was... kind of dire. I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?

It gets a lot better. The first season is kinda weak overall, but there's a lot of setup for the later seasons in it, so you do have to watch it at some point.

Also, the pilot episode is "The Gathering", which aired about a year before the one you saw. It's more rough around the edges than anything in season 1, but it's also essential viewing at some point.

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


Powered Descent posted:

Hello there B5 blind watch thread! I'm Powered Descent. I've been meaning to check out this show for a couple of decades now, so today my girlfriend and I finally sat down and watched the first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line. I'll be trying to react to B5 as its own thing, but seeing as we're both HUGE fans of Deep Space Nine, some comparisons are inevitable. Anyway, here are my reactions, more or less in the order I thought them during the viewing.


1. Holy cow, you can SEE how low the budget was. I may have been spoiled by Star Trek for my expectations of 90s sci-fi production values. The sets and lighting, the filming, it's all barely above soap opera level. About the only thing that doesn't look cheap is the alien makeup, which somehow is top notch. (With the possible exception of the sideways-mohawk Space Hungarians.) Still, I refuse to hold the show's frugality against it. A good story can be compellingly told with cardboard sets, after all.

2. Man, those were some awkward-rear end exposition dumps right at the beginning. But as a lifelong sci-fi fan, I'm used to those, and honestly I'll take a good old-fashioned infodump over the recent trend of the super gradual season-long reveal of backstory for no other reason than to artificially prolong a mystery.

3. Why can't the telepath tell why someone doesn't like her? I mean, having telepathy and all. (Addendum, later on: oh, so I guess she has to touch a person to read them.)

4. Well now, the be-mohawked Centauri aliens are certainly playing to the back row, aren't they? I certainly wouldn't accuse either of them of underacting. (I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

5. So they solved the A plot (the Narn attack on the colony world) thanks to the B plot (it turns out the pirates are buying their weapons from the Narn). Good on them for bringing the threads together, but it's still kind of an unsatisfying ending since it's really a total coincidence. The two chains of events were unrelated except for both happening to involve Narn.

Overall reaction: I give this episode 2 out of 5 Babylons, and I'm being a little generous with that because it's not unusual for pilot episodes to be kind of wonky. I can see how the characters could have some potential, but this episode was... kind of dire. I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?


P.S. Are the Narn from the planet Narnia? :buddy: (I figure I'm the one millionth person to make that obvious joke. What's my prize?)

:munch:

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




On cheapness, IIRC B5's per episode budget was a bit under half that of Star Trek's. It's really impressive how good the show looks given how little money there was.

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



Powered Descent posted:

Still, I refuse to hold the show's frugality against it. A good story can be compellingly told with cardboard sets, after all.

This attitude will get you a long way with this show.

quote:

2. Man, those were some awkward-rear end exposition dumps right at the beginning. But as a lifelong sci-fi fan, I'm used to those, and honestly I'll take a good old-fashioned infodump over the recent trend of the super gradual season-long reveal of backstory for no other reason than to artificially prolong a mystery.

This attitude will get you a long way with this show.

quote:

4. Well now, the be-mohawked Centauri aliens are certainly playing to the back row, aren't they? I certainly wouldn't accuse either of them of underacting. (I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

This attitude will get you a long way with this show. You may have noticed I can already tell you've set the stage for a most enjoyable readalong for this thread.

quote:

Overall reaction: I give this episode 2 out of 5 Babylons, and I'm being a little generous with that because it's not unusual for pilot episodes to be kind of wonky. I can see how the characters could have some potential, but this episode was... kind of dire. I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?

Season 1 improves dramatically on a rewatch, but as others have said, it is definitely the weak link as they find their legs. Know, though, that they do find their legs.

quote:

P.S. Are the Narn from the planet Narnia? :buddy: (I figure I'm the one millionth person to make that obvious joke. What's my prize?)

Actually in my experience as a lifelong fan, that's the first time I've seen anyone say that. But then I'm not plugged into the general fan community.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk







Powered Descent posted:

Hello there B5 blind watch thread! I'm Powered Descent. I've been meaning to check out this show for a couple of decades now, so today my girlfriend and I finally sat down and watched the first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line. I'll be trying to react to B5 as its own thing, but seeing as we're both HUGE fans of Deep Space Nine, some comparisons are inevitable. Anyway, here are my reactions, more or less in the order I thought them during the viewing.


1. Holy cow, you can SEE how low the budget was. I may have been spoiled by Star Trek for my expectations of 90s sci-fi production values. The sets and lighting, the filming, it's all barely above soap opera level. About the only thing that doesn't look cheap is the alien makeup, which somehow is top notch. (With the possible exception of the sideways-mohawk Space Hungarians.) Still, I refuse to hold the show's frugality against it. A good story can be compellingly told with cardboard sets, after all.

2. Man, those were some awkward-rear end exposition dumps right at the beginning. But as a lifelong sci-fi fan, I'm used to those, and honestly I'll take a good old-fashioned infodump over the recent trend of the super gradual season-long reveal of backstory for no other reason than to artificially prolong a mystery.

3. Why can't the telepath tell why someone doesn't like her? I mean, having telepathy and all. (Addendum, later on: oh, so I guess she has to touch a person to read them.)

4. Well now, the be-mohawked Centauri aliens are certainly playing to the back row, aren't they? I certainly wouldn't accuse either of them of underacting. (I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

5. So they solved the A plot (the Narn attack on the colony world) thanks to the B plot (it turns out the pirates are buying their weapons from the Narn). Good on them for bringing the threads together, but it's still kind of an unsatisfying ending since it's really a total coincidence. The two chains of events were unrelated except for both happening to involve Narn.

Overall reaction: I give this episode 2 out of 5 Babylons, and I'm being a little generous with that because it's not unusual for pilot episodes to be kind of wonky. I can see how the characters could have some potential, but this episode was... kind of dire. I'll keep watching, but... it DOES get better than this, right?


P.S. Are the Narn from the planet Narnia? :buddy: (I figure I'm the one millionth person to make that obvious joke. What's my prize?)

Excellent! there will be a lot of people watching your reaction, nothing as depraved as a b5 newbie-addict in the throes of a reaction binge

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005






Winifred Madgers posted:

This attitude will get you a long way with this show.

This attitude will get you a long way with this show.

This attitude will get you a long way with this show. You may have noticed I can already tell you've set the stage for a most enjoyable readalong for this thread.

Season 1 improves dramatically on a rewatch, but as others have said, it is definitely the weak link as they find their legs. Know, though, that they do find their legs.

Actually in my experience as a lifelong fan, that's the first time I've seen anyone say that. But then I'm not plugged into the general fan community.

Fresh blood! Looks like meat's back on the menu, folks!

To answer broadly the cgi and effects have not aged well, the real meat is the story, and it really kicks into warp drive around S2

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Also since you're just starting, you are watching the new-ish HD remaster, right? It's the one that came out on HBO Max and maybe elsewhere.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Grand Fromage posted:

On cheapness, IIRC B5's per episode budget was a bit under half that of Star Trek's. It's really impressive how good the show looks given how little money there was.

jms posted:

The VOYAGER pilot is *$23 million*?!

The BABYLON 5 pilot was $3.5 million.

With $23 million, we could make 1.3 SEASONS of B5. And have a bit of money left over for a wrap party.

Amazing....

To be fair, I remember the Voyager pilot being, uh. Extravagant? There's a lot going on in the Voyager pilot.


To Powered Descent: Welcome! The Narnia joke never occurred to me. I hope you enjoy the show, and look forward to your thoughts (good or bad) as you watch episodes. I like Midnight on the Firing Line quite a lot, but it's impossible for me to disentangle my feelings about any episode from my knowledge of where the series and characters go.

fake edit: I see many others have already joined the water you chummed.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Pilots are expensive, they have to build all the sets and poo poo. My memory is a standard DS9 episode was ~1.5 million and B5 was like 650k but I could be wrong.

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


Powered Descent posted:

3. Why can't the telepath tell why someone doesn't like her? I mean, having telepathy and all. (Addendum, later on: oh, so I guess she has to touch a person to read them.)

They have rules. No scanning without permission.

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Grand Fromage posted:

Pilots are expensive, they have to build all the sets and poo poo. My memory is a standard DS9 episode was ~1.5 million and B5 was like 650k but I could be wrong.

Using the numbers JMS gave there as a rough guide: B5 had 22-episode seasons. 1.3 seasons is 28.6 episodes. $23 million spread across 28.6 episodes is about $804 thousand per episode, and JMS was saying that he'd have money left over. So, ballpark, about the same as you remembered. I'm sure B5's budget varied over time. Voyager debuted ... sometime during the first third or so of Babylon 5, season 2. I always forget how early Voyager started. (I always think of it as a late-90s show.)

But yeah: Something I mentioned once to a friend, which they were a bit surprised by (hadn't considered it at all one way or the other), is that Babylon 5 was a distinctly low-budget show. They pioneered CGI on television! ... which meant they didn't have to actually make any physical models of the ships. Those are expensive.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Powered Descent posted:

4. Well now, the be-mohawked Centauri aliens are certainly playing to the back row, aren't they? I certainly wouldn't accuse either of them of underacting. (I actually started enjoying their performance more by thinking of their scenes as a stage play on film.)

Entirely plot-irrelevant detail: this is literally the case. Peter Jurasik, who played Londo Mollari, was and is primarily a stage actor. He defined the Centauri performance in the pilot, and everyone who guested as a Centauri noble on the show followed his lead.

Erulisse
Feb 12, 2019

A bad poster trying to get better.


This was a really good and fun post to read!

quote:

sideways-mohawk Space Hungarians.
band name
username
thread title

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Jedit posted:

He defined the Centauri performance in the pilot, and everyone who guested as a Centauri noble on the show followed his lead.

Well, not everyone - but William Forward 100% did

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Jedit posted:

Peter Jurasik, who played Londo Mollari, was and is primarily a stage actor.

Most of the series leads had similar backgrounds, and it really shows.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



I feel like it can be sort of hard to judge how cheap Babylon 5 for its time, because so much of it is purposefully trying to do something totally different from its contemporary big sci-fi show, Star Trek. They make their backgrounds detailed and cluttered as opposed to empty and elegant. The CGI has aged badly (and honestly might've been cheap for its time), but it was still a big new technology at the time, so contemporary audiences might not have seen it as clumsy, especially since it was showing objects with no real-world equivalent. The alien races use contemporary makeup techniques while most of Deep Space Nine still uses the designs that were made in the 80s.

But I think the thing that shows the most is that somehow Babylon 5 can just shove a bunch of extras in the background, which Star Trek just doesn't for whatever reason.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



The CGI was always the best they could afford. The technology was just ridiculously limited back then.

Whybird
Aug 2, 2009

Phaiston have long avoided the tightly competetive defence sector, but the IRDA Act 2052 has given us the freedom we need to bring out something really special.

https://team-robostar.itch.io/robostar




Nap Ghost

I feel like it helps that for the most part, the CGI is used to show spaceship battles where it doesn't have to render smooth contours or organic-looking textures. When it's doing that, it honestly looks pretty good. It's when they try to have it appear in the same scene as actors that the seams show.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/write-direct.html#JMichaelStraczynski

In this interview, JMS says their budget started at $650,000 per episode. He cites TNG at $1.5 million per episode. Deep Space Nine, according to the Internet, was $2 million per episode, or about three times the B5 early budget. And S5 saw the budget get cut with the move to TNT: to cut costs they had to manage with one fewer day of filming (without going overtime) and JMS had more characters to shuffle because they couldn’t afford to pay all the regulars for 22 episodes, meaning someone like Londo could only appear in 13 episodes across S5.

At times, the penny pinching constraints lead to massive creativity and viruoso design. They had to reuse as much of the alien prosthetics as possible, for example, and streamline the make-up process. At other times, it shot the show in the foot: the best example to my mind was the S1 decision not to spend $10,000 on widescreen equipment for the visual effects team. JMS knew high-definition would eventually become the standard, and it cost no more with the cameras they had to film for wide-screen, so the directors were told to frame shots so they’d still work in wide-screen format (no crew on the sides of shots, for example). But Doug Netter said no to the CGI shop’s request for a monitor which would allow them to create wide-screen CGI. It sounds likely that JMS knew but was under the false impression that it would eventually be cheap to redo all the effects. As a result, the show exists in widescreen, but the pure CGI space shots do not, and there’s a huge drop in quality in composite shots because the CGI is in the wrong aspect format.

Naturally, the show has mainly been available in widescreen format since its original run, with cropped/pan and scan CGI. That’s why the remaster in the original format was such a big deal. And a good example of the corners the show had to cut because of its low budget.

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Well, not everyone - but William Forward 100% did

The main and obvious exception here is Steven Furst's portrayal of Vir - and even then, it primarily works because he's such an outlier to how literally every other Centauri is portrayed and behaves.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




It was also great how the accent ended up being an unintentional regional/class thing that added some great variety to the Centauri, despite it only happening because Jurasik straight up refused to stop doing the loving accent every time the camera rolled and they had to give up.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



Thanks for the welcomes, everyone! :tipshat:

Up tonight, s01e02, Soul Hunter. Reactions, roughly in order:

  • I love how the space grapple looks and works exactly like the claw game at the arcade. Missed the stuffed animal, insert another quarter.
  • Now that I'm looking at it, the little fighter ships have a neat design, with the engines out on the wingtips that can fire forward or back. Looks maneuverable as all hell.
  • So Delenn grabbed the Commander's gun right out of his holster and genuinely tried to murder a guy, but it's okay since she said she's sorry.
  • Oh hey, the alien is played by Blank Reg. Neat.
  • SEE-TOE REE-CHO MAN-TOE RAY
  • Wait, why are there impoverished people dressed in literal rags and living in squalor on this kazillion-dollar high-class diplomatic space station? I get that they don't have Federation-style fully automated luxury gay space communism, but come on, these people look straight out of Oliver Twist.
  • The dead Minbari ruler was named Dukat? :lol:
  • The characters are starting to grow on me. Ivanova's Russian fatalism could provide plenty of dark humor, and Garibaldi is shaping up as the amiable everyman character, even if my girlfriend finds his mannerisms extremely reminiscent of Captain Mercer from The Orville.
  • I must say, this second alien is a very reasonable and helpful guy for a soul-eating abomination.
  • Those itty-bitty Noisy Cricket rayguns are great.
  • So... Sinclair has the hots for Delenn, right? I'm not crazy? He totally wants her headbone?
  • Self-cleaning soul balls, they leave only the fresh scent of pine.

Overall, this was a nice step up from the first episode. It wasn't spectacular but I enjoyed it. I give it 3 out of 5 Babylons. I was a little surprised that it had such a different set of characters from last week, though. I get that it's an ensemble show and all that, but it still seems a little odd to already have complete non-appearances by (what I assume to be) major characters like Londo and G'Kar and Kosh and what's-her-face the telepath.

Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Nov 2, 2021

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Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002



Powered Descent posted:

[*] The dead Minbari ruler was named Dukat? :lol:

Dukhat. Enormous difference, as you can plainly see.

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