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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I'm going to chuck out one more thing in favour of Carpenter: good as it is, Alien was not entirely the product of skill. Had Dan O'Bannon's Star Beast been the movie that was made, it would have been utterly forgotten by anyone outside the CineD horror threads. O'Bannon himself freely admitted that much of what he'd written was plagiarised from other SF movies. Then there were so many things that they wanted to do on the movie that would have ruined it if they hadn't been stopped, not least the von Danikenesque stuff that was later derided when Scott recycled it in Prometheus. So it's a great movie, but it's actually better than the movie Scott wanted to make.

Christine, on the other hand, is meticulous. It came right in the middle of a decade through which Carpenter could do no wrong, and it doesn't stand out as inferior to his other movies of the period. It understands the material and makes it work - a rarity with movie adaptations of King novels, which all too often rush to the high points at the expense of plot or become bloated by crowbarring in as much as they can.

In short: Christine is its director's vision, but Alien is not.

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TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



Honestly, Carpenter being an underdog is what this thread needed to really stay exciting. I was worried when this started that Carpenter was just gonna waltz his way to victory but actually having a challenge here is wonderful.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

Now I'll gladly defend Christine against people saying it's one of Carpenter's weaker movies, but y'all REALLY desperate to convince yourselves that it's better than ALIEN. It's SUCH a good slasher movie that people don't even mention it when it comes to slasher movies, it just crushes all competition.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

married but discreet posted:

Now I'll gladly defend Christine against people saying it's one of Carpenter's weaker movies, but y'all REALLY desperate to convince yourselves that it's better than ALIEN. It's SUCH a good slasher movie that people don't even mention it when it comes to slasher movies, it just crushes all competition.

Now, if you review my post I never said that Christine is better than Alien. But the question of which movie is better in a vacuum isn't the only way to evaluate these matchups.

What I did say is that there are individual elements of Christine that are better than what we have in Alien. I think that's a true statement.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

íHola SEA!




Franchescanado posted:

Who chose Honda's roster? If Half Human was such a possible loss, why did someone posit that for his roster instead of something else? Like War of the Gargantuans.

Yeah I would definitely have gone with War of the Gargantuas and The H-Man which both wreck over Half Human and either Human Vapor or Frankenstein Conquers the World. I mean hey, he won anyway though.

MacheteZombie posted:

*hand clap emote*

wow small round for new watches for me. Onibaba and Salem's Lot. Though Hooper getting a tv movie that he's not credited for seems iffy y'all.

Onibaba is great. Salem's lot basically sucks but it has a couple good shots and one really good scare.

TrixRabbi posted:

Excited for those of you who haven't seen The Babadook to learn the movie actually has nothing to do with queer identity at all.

That whole matchup is movies that i like less than their reputation, but at least hereditary and get out are actually good. get out is head and shoulders above the other two though

Franchescanado posted:

edit: I'm pretty happy everyone's gonna have to watch Onibaba, though. It's still a fascinating ghost story. It's currently streaming on Criterion Channel, with a 21 minute interview with Kaneta Shindo and a 40 minute making-of documentary.

I love onibaba even more than kuroneko, but i'm already preparing myself for when it and wwitch both lose to dream warriors, which i think is mediocre. i see how the wind blows in this thread.

TrixRabbi posted:

Honestly, Carpenter being an underdog is what this thread needed to really stay exciting. I was worried when this started that Carpenter was just gonna waltz his way to victory but actually having a challenge here is wonderful.

I loving love Christine. This matchup is brutal for me

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog




Voting for Christine over Alien is justified if your personal criteria/weighting deems it so. Basebf555's post is full of good reasons why someone may choose Christine over Alien. There have been plenty of results already that made no sense to me, it is what it is, make your case and vote how you want and see how things come out.

I'd be down for a gang tag even if I don't post in here much, I read the thread obsessively and have been loving the tournament. Society has been in my Shudder queue for a while and I have been meaning to watch it, so this gives me an excuse which is great. That and Onibaba are my only new watches this round, but that's a good thing since I have less time to watch stuff this week.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


DeimosRising posted:

Yeah I would definitely have gone with War of the Gargantuas and The H-Man which both wreck over Half Human and either Human Vapor or Frankenstein Conquers the World. I mean hey, he won anyway though.

I'd be willing to swap H-Man for Frankenstein Conquers the World if people want, I just felt that Human Vapor was more interesting a film due to its insane Invisible Man But A Psycho Love Story plot and I included Frankenstein because Frankenstein come on

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



married but discreet posted:

Now I'll gladly defend Christine against people saying it's one of Carpenter's weaker movies, but y'all REALLY desperate to convince yourselves that it's better than ALIEN. It's SUCH a good slasher movie that people don't even mention it when it comes to slasher movies, it just crushes all competition.

We're judging directors here, not movies. It's possible to direct with greater skill yet produce a lesser movie, which is why the reigning Best Picture Oscar winner just tied with a dude in a cheap rubber suit.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



Burkion posted:

I'd be willing to swap H-Man for Frankenstein Conquers the World if people want, I just felt that Human Vapor was more interesting a film due to its insane Invisible Man But A Psycho Love Story plot and I included Frankenstein because Frankenstein come on

I personally have got no issues with swapping movies out so long as it's before they're actually drawn to compete. Y'all know Honda's marginalia better than I do but I support whatever the majority of people would like to see here.

Frankenstein is weird as hell though and would be a fun group watch.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

Someone you know is Gay
Someone you know is Bi
Someone you know is Trans
Someone you know is French
Maybe even someone you love

Grimey Drawer

I think sometimes the question does boil down to "Which movie is more fun?" Or, I guess for The VVitch vs A Nightmare on Elm Street 3 vs Onibaba, which do I gravitate towards? Because they're all 4+ star movies, but for completely different reasons.

The VVitch is a masterpiece of production. Set designs, sound design, based on excellent research, attention to detail, and grounded by performances that feel other-worldly but always human and terrifying.

Onibaba is a masterpiece of Japanese ghost folk tales and the horrors of post-war Japan, set in the 14th century after Japan's 50 year civil war, and written and directed after WW2. It is also a tale that centers on two different generations of women. It has more in common with The VVitch, surprisingly, in that it feels more allegorical, and has roots in specific historical period, as well as roots in parables, folk tales, and ghost stories.

A Nightmare on Elm Street 3 is arguably the most creative of the franchise. It expands upon the themes and ideas of the original in a thoughtful way. Freddy is more fleshed out, as is Englund's performance. It balances the horrific with the tragic with comedy. It's colorful, it's fun, and I can't repeat it enough, it's so goddamn creative. Whether or not 1 or 3 or New is your favorite, it's hard to argue that 3 is kind of the epitome of the series.

The VVitch and Onibaba are more thoughtful, but they're more serious. A Nightmare on Elm Street 3 isn't shallow though, nor is it bereft of heavy themes. It's a portrait of fears of institutional abuse, of teens thrown into systems (by confused, scared parents) that promised to help them but really only added to their problems. There is a Reagan-era cynical malaise with the group of teenage characters being abandoned by the adults in their lives, and left to die at the hands of a supernatural presence that preys on their insecurities, their addictions, their personal demons, and their mental illnesses. Their hero is a woman who questions the system from the inside, and does two important things in their lives: listens to them, believes them, and tries to help them. Her weapon--using her own history of abuse to break the cycle of abuse for the next generation. During that journey, she not only helps the next generation, she forgives the previous generation, her father, who's fear and negligence almost ruined her life.

The other biggest improvement to Wes Craven's original is to the titular Dream Warriors. Kristen, Kincaid, Joey, Taryn, Jennifer and the other kids are more fleshed out than the original's Rodd, Tina and Glenn. More time is spent on them, their dream deaths are more unique and personal, and the actors have more room to breathe in the roles. Their deaths hurt.

The biggest mark against this film--from a viewer's silly perspective--is that The VVitch has a 4k UHD release, Onibaba has a 4k restoration by Criterion Channel, and Dream Warriors is relegated to a lame 1080HD, usually bought in a multi-pack of movies, instead of a nice new resoration where it can pop.

And this isn't even with my rewatch. I'll happily defend Dream Warriors on a rewatch. It may be a slasher while the other two are art films, but I don't think that's a true mark against the film. Dream Warriors is fun, and it has an excellent heart. It was so good, it broke the Nightmare franchise, because they didn't know how to top it.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


I think, in my heart of hearts, I have to go with Dream Warriors and Babadook on the triple threats. They're the ones that mean the most to me and speak to me more. However I fully grant that Get Out probably deserves the nod more- its more cohesive than Us, and may yet stand as Jordan Peele's best work.

Salem's Lot I actually like a lot, but Society is just a bad draw. I love the OG Salem's Lot and how atmospheric and creepy it is, with a balls out no bullshit straight up Nosferatu as the central villain. But Society is a wild ride with an insane finale and could easily tip the scale in favor of Yuza. I'd be open to hearing someone espousing Salem Lot's strengths over Society though.

Christine VS ALIEN is something else.

I'll come back to that later.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



To be fair to Hooper, I'd probably have voted for Society over Eaten Alive or, maybe even TCM 2. So it's not like he was a shoe-in.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I ain't gonna lie. I'm a little bitter ya'll voted against The Tingler and are now gonna eliminate John Carpenter. I need a minute.

I also think its completely rigged and arbitrary to change up a movie after its been picked. And I like Salem's Lot. But also I've seen Salem's Lot a bunch so like, I don't care if you want to add a different shorter movie. This week's a lot of movie especially when my compulsion makes me watch the first 2 Nightmares... and maybe to New Nightmare.

No... I can't talk about that. I'm hurting too much. I need time.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Yea I have to agree that changing a movie selection now after it's been drawn is no good. Too many strong directors have already been eliminated to get into those sort of shenanigans now.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

Someone you know is Gay
Someone you know is Bi
Someone you know is Trans
Someone you know is French
Maybe even someone you love

Grimey Drawer

Basebf555 posted:

Yea I have to agree that changing a movie selection now after it's been drawn is no good. Too many strong directors have already been eliminated to get into those sort of shenanigans now.

Yeah, this is fair and I'm fine with watching 'Salem's Lot. I'm hoping I'm surprised by it!


STAC Goat posted:

I ain't gonna lie. I'm a little bitter ya'll voted against The Tingler and are now gonna eliminate John Carpenter. I need a minute.

I also think its completely rigged and arbitrary to change up a movie after its been picked. And I like Salem's Lot. But also I've seen Salem's Lot a bunch so like, I don't care if you want to add a different shorter movie. This week's a lot of movie especially when my compulsion makes me watch the first 2 Nightmares... and maybe to New Nightmare.

No... I can't talk about that. I'm hurting too much. I need time.

I dunno bud, from the sound of it, I'm hearing more leans towards Christine than Alien.

Not to say which way I'm voting yet, but I own Christine in 4k and I don't own Alien at all. I missed it on 4k when it was available for a good price and now it's semi-OOP.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



If I'm being honest with myself, franchise fatigue has pushed me away from Alien in recent years, at least as far as my enthusiasm to rewatch any of those films goes. Whereas I saw Christine on 35mm a couple years back and it was a phenomenal experience. Yeah, I dunno it's a tough one.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

I can only assume that there's a silent majority of people who will be voting for Alien and just aren't gonna post too much about it because they think it's a no-brainer.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





Basebf555 posted:

I can only assume that there's a silent majority of people who will be voting for Alien and just aren't gonna post too much about it because they think it's a no-brainer.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I mean, I might vote for Alien. I vowed to stick by the spirit of this tournament and I love that film. But I haven't actually seen Christine since I was a kid so we'll see.

But people over here taking down Oscar winners and The Tingler with Masters of Horror episodes so who the hell knows?

Origami Dali
Jan 7, 2005

Get ready to fuck!
You fucker's fucker!
You fucker!


Christine is quality Carpenter. It's one of his best looking films and the soundtrack is awesome. In most other matchups, it should win. But not this time.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





Before rewatching them, I'm leaning toward Alien. I love Christine, I love the lead character's descent into madness, I love the automotive gore, I love the bullies flexing their villainous muscles. However, how does all of that compare with chest bursters, face huggers, robot splatter, and Sigourney Weaver's definitive futch performance? And then you have Harry Dean Stanton, Ian Holm, John Hurt, and Veronica Cartwright, who is IMO an unsung national treasure. Alien is just too strong.

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005

Nosferatu Enthusiast
@shrecknet



I wont lie to Christine about its chances... But it does have... My sympathies.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Ok, I've recovered.

Interesting but challenging week. I've seen everything in this round but almost all of them are films I've only seen once or haven't seen in forever. I've really been wanting to rewatch Get Out. VVitch, and Babadook and I'm always up for a rewatch of Alien or the Elm Street movies (and I will at least be watching the first 3 but I'm probably gonna save it for Sunday and try and do all the way to New Nightmare to complete the Heather/Nancy trilogy). But I also kind of never wanted to watch Hereditary again and really sort of hated Society.

I'm honestly hoping I'm the lone vote for Salem's Lot. That's not contrarianism, I just actually like that and didn't like Society at all. But I know that's totally the polar opposite of this crew so I'm kind of curious to see if I'm alone entirely. But I've only seen Society once so I'll give it a chance.

And I'm gonna have a fun Stephen King night with Salem's Lot and Christine.

Am I insane enough to try and watch Get Out, Hereditary, and the Babadook in the same night? Will I survive that intact of my mental and emotional health?

I also gotta finish Twin Peaks because Lynch is back up next round and somehow I haven't been able to watch 30 episodes in 3 months.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 27, 2020

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

I only need to really watch Onibaba and Salem's Lot for this round, and those movies are incidentally the ones that are up against opponents where it's not an immediate no-brainer decision for me.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





Alien Vs. Christine, SATURDAY on the CineD Discord

1930 EST Alien
2135 EST Christine



Hereditary Vs. Babadook Vs. Get Out, SUNDAY on the CineD Discord

1930 EST Get Out
2125 EST Babadook
2305 EST Hereditary

Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Aug 28, 2020

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Debbie Does Dagon posted:

Hereditary Vs. Babadook Vs. Get Out, SUNDAY on the CineD Discord
First film starts at 1930 EST


This is inhumane. You've gone too far. People will be hurt.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





witch-cackle.gif

I'm considering putting Hereditary on last, just in case people need time to recover. It's hard to tell though, my main reaction to Hereditary was "I want to be a headless witch raising demons when I grow up."

Irony.or.Death
Apr 1, 2009




Hello horror friends I missed this thread - the viewing schedule just got to be too much for me to keep up with, especially given how hard some stuff was to find. Going to try to jump back in now.

Honestly if I were voting right now just on what I remember of the experiences, it's Christine over Alien easily. A big part of that is probably how much of a surprise Christine was when I finally saw it. You don't expect much from that premise but you give it a shot since so many people talk the thing up, then it just blows right past all your expectations and is insanely fun. I do need to watch Alien again, it's been a long time. I can believe it will pull ahead. The idea that it's an obvious easy win, though? I don't see it. Christine has too much to offer.

RobbZombae
Feb 9, 2010


Screaming is the only useful thing that we can do.



Jodorowsky's Dune documentary would be a really good watch to those voting this week that don't fancy rewatching Alien for the hundredth time. Ridley Scott absolutely lucked into one of the most impressive creative teams ever assembled. I'm not a fan of his at all but Alien is an astounding horror film I just can't see past.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



I initially was just gonna go with Alien but everyone here is really winning me over to the Christine Crew.

Class3KillStorm
Feb 17, 2011





Debbie Does Dagon posted:

And then you have Harry Dean Stanton...

To be fair, so does Christine, and in probably a slightly meatier role than he has in Alien, to boot. I'm actually a touch surprised he only worked with Carpenter twice - on Escape from New York and a couple years later on Christine - since he seems like the kind of journeyman actor who would end up in Carpenter's stable of talent and then not be let go. That's not an indictment, either; Carpenter knew talent when he saw it, even if it can be sometimes debatable if he was using it to the fullest.

M_Sinistrari
Sep 5, 2008

Do you like scary movies?





Being that not much has been said about 'Salem's Lot compared to Society, I'm stepping up to the podium to speak for it.

The book was the first one I read of Stephen King's and if I have to pick a top favorite, it's this one. The 'Lot's like every other sleepy small town that's slowly dying off and is a perfect feeding ground for a vampire. The tension's paced well as at first a few townies feeling under the weather, then the deaths start. The group that becomes the vampire hunters need convincing first that vampires are real and after that, they're kinda inept at the task. The ending is one of the rare 'Holy poo poo, King managed an okay ending in something not a short story'. The '04 miniseries is closer to the book but is lacking in parts on execution of concept. I do recommend the sequel story, 'One for the Road' in the Night Shift anthology.

The original 2 parter miniseries was a big deal back in the day. I think it was the second major adaptation of his work. It is very much a product of its time and airing medium. For 1979 the effects are pretty good and they did what they could scriptwise for airing on CBS while sticking close enough to the book. I feel they made a good choice combining characters and trimming out subplots. They were the sort of thing that works fine in a book or a full season series, but would make things cluttered for a 2 part miniseries. Another nice touch was the route they took with depicting the vampires. At the time it was pretty much the cultured aristocrat depiction, so seeing something looking like Count Orlok that growls and snarls with the other vampires looking dead with light reflecting eyes while slipping into a more bestial state with their only sense of self being devotion to The Master was something new and different. It pushed the aspect of inhuman apex predator front and center. Barlow was terrifying not only in appearance but seeing things like him casting aside a cross was new unless one saw the episode of Night Gallery where a vampire hunter learned crosses don't work on Jewish vampires. I don't know anyone who watched the original broadcast who didn't near jump out of their skin when Barlow first appears. According to my Mom, when Barlow appeared, I pretty much crossed the living room in the blink of an eye to join her on the couch.

There is also a 'theatrical' cut of the series that was made for European release that was filmed along with the miniseries. It mostly differs in how some scenes were shot so if this is the only version you can find to stream, it's a fine substitute. I know quite a few who prefer it to the original miniseries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P43PvM5a8Is

Considering this one's up against Society, they do share the element of wealthy feeding on the poor. Society's just more overt on the commentary, while 'Salem's Lot's the more insidious aspect of a wealthy big wheel coming to a small town and draining it dry (no pun intended) then moving on. We've all heard of small towns where a big company sets up operations to where the town becomes dependent on the work from the company only to be royally screwed when that company pulls up stakes and goes elsewhere. Here, Barlow and Straker (wealthy enough to travel all around Europe) are opening up a pricy antique shop and even purchase the rumored haunted Marsten House which has been on the market for years. The townspeople are hoping the antique shop might bring in new money from wealthy tourists out antiquing not to mention how much it'd cost for the Marsten House to get fixed up with that money being spent in town. Instead, they're just dinner on legs for Barlow and his growing brood.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Yes, I love the old school Nosferatu design and truthfully I watched Salem's Lot before I saw Nosferatu so it was my first exposure to that kind of wild demonic vampire. I also love the way the other vampires are basically drones. Its vampirism as a parasite, an epidemic, that's spreading through the town and eating it alive. That's been done since so its not nearly as unique now but it was my first exposure to it. I loved that idea ad the sinisterness of it and desperate situation it puts the town in. Its not one guy fighting a vampire to save his lady or something. Its an entire town being killed and people just trying to kill it before it spreads further.

And that town thing is no surprise with a King work. So many of his stories are basically about that idea. The small town dying and falling under the weight of everything. There's an evil doing it to them whether that's a vampire or a clown or a demon in a blizzard but its all reflecting that the town's been dying to corporate decay and big life and all that. Barlow can eat Salem's Lot because its the weak antelope running with the pack. He couldn't go to Boston and do this. There'd be consequences. But Salem's Lot is already broken enough that the only people left to put the pieces together and resist once Barlow's really done damage are a few random people.

Its got miniseries pacing and its a King story so its got a lot of getting to know a lot of characters. But I love that stuff. And it ages. But I think stuff like Barlow and the floating kid are still real eery. I don't think its great, and I know its gonna lose to Society, but I expect when I rewatch it I'll be on board again. I kinda want to get my hands on the bad sequel, remake, and book but who has the time? So many movies to watch.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Aug 28, 2020

M_Sinistrari
Sep 5, 2008

Do you like scary movies?





STAC Goat posted:

I kinda want to get my hands on the bad sequel, remake, and book but who has the time? So many movies to watch.

Interesting tidbit is Larry Cohen pitched to direct 'Salem's Lot, but the producer chose Hooper after seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Makes sense since they're both dying small town settings. The '04 version I saw back when I still did the mail the disc sub with Netflix, I haven't been able to find it streaming anywhere that's not sketchy. Book's not a huge read like some of King's other stuff. I'd put it at longer than Carrie but shorter than Night Shift or Everything's Eventual.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



There's a DVD set on Amazon for $13 with the Salem's Lot remake, Shining remake, and original It. I have It but I'm debating it because I'm sucker for King stuff and one day I'll own them all. And then die with someone having to yardsale a ton of horror dvds because I was that weird old guy who still bought them.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

It's funny, and I doubt I'm alone on this, but my first experience with the classic Nosferatu was the Are You Afraid of the Dark? episode where he comes out of the movie screen. So he scared the crap out of me as a kid before I ever knew anything about the history or legacy of the design.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

Are there any plans to stream Onibaba?

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





married but discreet posted:

Are there any plans to stream Onibaba?

I could stream in on Wednesday, if that works?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Man, I know there's a lot of fans here and I don't wanna be all edgy or anything. But I just finished Twin Peaks S2 and I think that last 40 minutes might have been the stupidest thing I've watched in my entire life.

I really didn't get Twin Peaks. And Jesus, there were so many adults having sex with teenagers. Endlessly.

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Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





Fire Walk with Me has all of the explicit scenes of teenagers being sexually abused, so look forward to that

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