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bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



This is a thread for all flavors of competitive cycling, including and especially boring liveblog updates about how your ftp is up by the exact same amount as your weight during coronatimes.
Race goals, race reports, training plans, or questions about how to get in to racing in the first place [hint: wait until the pandemic is over].

If you're looking for how to buy your first bicycle, you may be better served by the bicycle megathread.
If you're looking to chat about pro racing instead about how you totally could have gone pro if only you could figure out the right training periodization, take it to the pro cycling thread.

Placeholder for actual content.

I would've finished this post first but I was too tired from closing down gaps for all the other threads.

bicievino fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Jul 25, 2020

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bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



A placeholder

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Everyone go look up how close the closest velodrome is, and see if you'll be able to take a track class some day. Here's a slightly edited trip report from when I went 2 years ago:
=============================
Went to the Try the Track event at the outdoor velodrome in Londonderry, NH. Even though I've had that custom Cheeto fixie for a long time, this is the first time the stars have aligned for me to get on track.

My bike's HTA is 74, so pretty stable but could probably be more stable. 25mm tires was more than enough comfort despite there being quite a few seams on the concrete.

The first part of training was track protocol -- starting on the rail, calling "stay," the sprinter's lane. The instruction was a tad bit casual, and I got upset by the few experienced riders who were chatting during lessons and ignoring the basic drills. I guess I'm coming from a kickboxing background, where you do not gently caress around with instruction for safety. For senior people to be doing that and distracting complete noobs was a real turn-off.

We went through a shoulder bump drill (just stay shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to ribs with a partner while lapping) and a look back drill. The paceline drill was cake, though the gentle banking on the 333m track mean that there wasn't that cool sudden slowdown from moving up.
Bump drill pic:


Then we did a "mini keirin drill" where 3 riders go out, the first one setting pace for the first lap, and the 2 followers can start to race at the start of the second lap.
In theory, the leadout should really pick up speed on the 2nd lap so that the followers can stay back in the draft and time when they pop out. Because of the big mix of experience and fitness, a lot of the racing jumped the leadout as soon as the 2nd lap started. When I was leading out, I gave a good boost on the 2nd lap, but got passed right away. Against one guy, he tried to slowly ramp up speed, so I stayed glued and made a move coming out of the last turn. Lost by maybe 6" at the line. Against the other rider, he flew away before I could latch on. He was one of a handful of people with their own bike, and his gearing was pretty high, which was hard to deal with.

In the middle of this drill, one woman (who had raced track once before) set a fast pace and kept it through the finish. Her chaser poured it on through the last turn and burned tons of energy drifting out to mid-track, but just managed to squeak by at the line. Unfortunately, the first woman moved off the sprinter's lane after the finish while the chaser slid down toward her. They tangled bars and crashed. One broke a helmet and the other looked like she'd broken or at least dislocated her wrist. That incident got me and everyone else a lot more alert and serious about staying in your lane.

In the afternoon, we did the mock races. The coach split us into two groups of performance. I was in the lower one. Some just-graduated Harvard men's crew team members were at the event, and despite very little riding experience (they did have shoes from doing spin bikes as part of their workouts), they were of course aerobic monsters. I mean this in the most hateful, jealous way, but they were so fuckin sexy. Just picture minor height and hair color variations on Sunshine from Remember the Titans. Anyways, these guys and all the experienced riders were in A, and our B group was mostly intermediate roadies.

First race format was 2 lap scratch. Once again, I missed the lead group and ate wind for the last half lap.


2nd format was a 14 lap elimination, elimination every other lap. I had more success here, as the cool off and rerampup pacing following each elimination sprint gave me some downtime to recharge. In kickboxing, you have 1min between rounds to breathe hard and get your heart rate down, so I could work through that cycle pretty naturally. Made the first 2 eliminations no problem. Pic of me (red shouldered Belgian jersey) going into a 4-wide elimination:

In this moment, I'm thinking that it'd be unsporting at this level of event to box the other Belgian jersey rider out.
After the moment of this pic, I latch onto the outside line for a bit to give him room to move up if he wanted. Then I wanted to make sure I wasn't eliminated and dropped back into that open lane. Other Belgian was generally a very conservative and steady rider, so I think that's why he wasn't more aggressive about breaking out.
With my lane clear, I drilled it to the line. I wobbled a bit but stayed in my lane and didn't bump any shoulders, and came through first. Had no idea who got eliminated.

Next lap around, I'm at the head of the line and all psyched to pull for my teammate. I was looking to the coaches at the finish line to find out who got eliminated. They were motioning and saying "yellow jersey" since we didn't have numbers on. Two of us had on Belgian flag style jerseys, red, yellow, black. I try to point to myself to see if they wanted me off:

I thought I got a positive response, so elected to pull up at the next turn, assuming the sprint I made last lap must have been dangerous. Didn't want to risk not following orders. Some of the crowd was confused by my exit. Turns the coaches meant the other Belgian jersey (I think he did end up stuck in the back), so I just screwed myself out of some seat time.
Note how I'm cheating on the hoods for the easy lap.


3rd format was a 20 lap points race. Theme of the day -- missed the lead group flying off and couldn't reel them in. Lapped naked for 15 laps and finished half a lap behind the winners.
One of the collegiate racers from my cycling club was in the lead group the whole way. Somewhere in her ride, she was 1s off the QOM 1-lap record.

All the rental bikes were 48x17, and so was mine -- 74.5". I'm pretty comfortable spinning but in good riding shape, so without drafting, I had trouble keeping pace -- all spin. I'd like to come back and try a different gear ratio. My frame doesn't have dimpled chainstays, so I'm tapping out at 49t up front. I have a couple of options:

Not sure how well I can test ride 49x15 or 49x16 out on the road.



Octopus Magic posted:

Man, I remember going up there 10+ years ago. It's good to see it back going...

48 x 17 is really freakin' tiny for track! I run a bigger gear on my commuter track frame for spin practice (46 x 16). I can understand gear limiting people, but they usually even limit juniors to 80.... Were the faster riders on rentals? Or were they on their own bikes?

The NH Velodrome is pretty short (though not indoor sized), so a two lap scratch would more be like a mass sprint at the whistle vs. being able to make a real break for it, as you probably found out.

I hate points races because I am extremely lazy, unfit, and have no strategy. Usually the guys in lower cats (4/5) in points races are just flat out stronger than everyone else vs. strategy, as opposed to something like miss and out where you can take shelter the entire time and then gun it.

If I was going to start out, I'd probably throw a 49x15 on and work with that, or if you have a double sided hub, put a 16 on the other side if you want to spin up, and that gearing will carry you through for a while (at least through te 4s and 5s) where you could just throw a 14 cog on for more sprint based events a la Keirin or F200 seed timing (if you get that deep into it). I run a 50x15 (90 even) at Kissena and for most of my weekly goofing it's a decent spin. If you're feeling particularly cheap, there's tons of 48 chainrings out there because they're the OEM size on most cranks, and most people change them out.

Eventually though you probably will want a frame that can accommodate "real gears", but that's something I think is way, way, down the line and maybe even unneeded at NH Velodrome.
I feel like the best riders would still be winning on the short geared rentals, but yeah, they had their own bikes and taller ratios.
The acceleration was great but even at my cadence limit, I don't think the air drag was close to being a wall.

Do track riders worry about extra cog wear on smaller cogs? Looks like you can get down to 12t.


bicievino posted:

I've never seen anyone wear out a cog, but there is some inclination towards mechanical efficiency of larger cogs (no idea how real that is - something about greater friction loss because the chain is making a tighter turn?). That and the ever-increasing gear ratios that folks run has world-level people running insane-sized chainrings - the biggest I've ever seen is a 64.

Sounds like you had a cool experience - I wonder how different sprinting on such a shallow-banked track feels. Was it hard to stay down in the turns?

Very. The coach noted that the track was built decreasing radius for turn 4, with a pretty pronounced apex. I'd run a couple of fast laps before he mentioned that, and was definitely going wide well above the midpoint of the track instead of working harder to dig and stay in the lane. After seeing a few of the fast guys stick it, that gave me more confidence to keep drafting and really turn to keep down after the apex.

The biggest thing coming from road is that you're usually freewheeling and leaning and making adjustments with body English, but that technique all goes out the window if you have to pedal through the turn. As expected, having good pedaling form pays dividends in controlling the bike.

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



For anyone in Washington state, your next opportunity to try out track cycling is August 16th, at my velodrome in Redmond. https://www.velodrome.org

It's also one of the relatively few public, open tracks, so if you're so inclined you can ride whatever the hell bike you want on it as long as there aren't fixed geared bikes using it at the time.

jamal
Apr 15, 2003

I'll set the building on fire

Closest thing I have to racing right now is the Move MT Challenge.

It's a fundraiser for the food bank and probably also a little bit for the timing company putting it on with no events to time. Both the organizers are good friends of mine and we were all working together to put on the Missoula pro XC and an amateur event to go along with it when this all happened.

Anyway, there are a bunch of distance and elevation challenges and it goes from July 4th to sept 4th. Anyone can sign up and back date all their rides, runs, swims, whatever if they want to. I signed up for the two biggest ones (1947mi, 116k feet), thinking well, it's not really out of the ordinary for me to ride that much in that period of time but it gives me something to do.

Then poo poo got real because a friend in Bozeman is on this quest to climb 2 million feet this year. 1 on skis, and another on a bike. So I thought, maybe I'll try to keep pace with him for awhile. Now I've been averaging over 5k feet a day since it started and just got passed for 2nd by a guy who's put in two 9k days this week. I did 10k today to get back ahead of him.



WRT real racing, seems pretty ridiculous that people are out doing it right now in the US. I'm pretty doubtful our local cx series is going to happen, which I was going to be helping organize this year, and with how well we've managed gently caress all this up I'm even wondering about next year. Think I'm still the Missoula XC race director and we should probably figure out a date and I should possibly work on some stuff for that at some point. Whitefish guys for some reason decided to start up the weekly XC series. Not sure what the gently caress that's all about.

jamal fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jul 27, 2020

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



WA state status:

We had a timetrial and one road race in March.

Last three Sundays we've had road timetrials - relatively well attended (~50?). I haven't been so can't speak to how well covid-procedures are followed, but they haven't been shut down yet.

We got approval from the County last week to start planning timed events on the track. I feel like we're being appropriately conservative: capping participants at 5 per hour, no team events, no spectators, warm up in the parking lot, etc.
We'll see how it goes next weekend.

TobinHatesYou
Aug 14, 2007

wacky cycling inflatable
tube man


I raced 14 times between January 25 and March 8 because lol NCNCA schedule.

Too bad we're never gonna race again.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I had a dream that I entered a cross race and won the novice class. I've never done any cycling competition of any sort.

The course was grassy with a bunch of 1ft drops and one pretty steep runup. The drops were extremely fun and they didn't jounce nearly as much as they would irl. I couldn't get my cadence over 40 for some reason, which was distressing but somehow not affecting my speed. My backup bike was a duplicate of the bike I was using (my gravel bike that I obviously have just one of).

I think the race was a typical 40min long, but I rode at most 3 laps of a few min each, but still managed to lap people? Couldn''t have been more than 20 people out there, and the whole time I was thinking, crazy to be near people with covid going on.

So yeah, I'm a confirmed legend in my own mind.

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



poo poo, sounds pretty accurate to me.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


23:22 on the road bike in tonight's 10 mile TT, getting there

Oldsrocket_27
Apr 28, 2009


I did the bike section of a local triathalon as a part of a team yesterday. It went okay. It was windy day, sustained 20mph plus gusts, but only about 2 mi of the course were straight into it, and since it's a down-and-back I got 2 miles of tailwind and the rest was just cross. My goal going in was to break 34 min, but my legs just didn't quite have it. I ended up with a recorded time of 38:00, but the exact seconds will remain a mystery, because I'm pretty confident the student volunteers just recorded a "close enough" time since I had a small crash directly in font of the finish.

The route had to be changed from previous years due to construction, and now the finish was a left hand turn directly across the oncoming lane of the people starting the race. And the start was staggered in groups of 6 due to limited pool space. Because of this, there was a racer on a head-on collision course with me as I tried to turn into the finish and dismount. I squeezed on the front brake a little to hard and ate pavement at mercifully low speed and he avoided disaster. Got away with nothing but a little road rash on my hip and wounded pride. Still mad about the stupidity of the routes. The bike and run routes all criss-crossed in about the same place the middle of the street, and the roads weren't closed for the event leading to a lot of near misses with cars on the day.

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



A year ago today. I miss bike racing.



moctopus
Nov 28, 2005



A rare photo of riders still upright during the madison.

That's cool as hell though. Must have worked your rear end off for it.

I really miss bike racing too.

Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

Rider now with 100% more titanium!


We're about to hit cyclocross season here.... I dunno if that's gonna go down at all.

Your photos remind me how much I miss the velodrome. My track bike is sitting in the rafters of my garage either crying from disuse, or quietly worrying my tubby body will try to ride it again in anger.

There's nothing I've run into that lets you dig quite as deep as riding at the velodrome.

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



Nerobro posted:

We're about to hit cyclocross season here.... I dunno if that's gonna go down at all.

Your photos remind me how much I miss the velodrome. My track bike is sitting in the rafters of my garage either crying from disuse, or quietly worrying my tubby body will try to ride it again in anger.

There's nothing I've run into that lets you dig quite as deep as riding at the velodrome.

Yeah, both our cross series here have already been cancelled.

We got three days of track "racing" at my velodrome this year - time trials only, plus a day of folks doing hour record attempts (barf!). Not my jam, but at least it was something for people.

jamal
Apr 15, 2003

I'll set the building on fire

Our organizer has been floating the idea of small "bubbles" of racers. The regular A/B groups are generally against racing at all. but guess what group has about a 75% "yes" rate?

I'm ok with a year of not racing but it does suck for the kids/juniors. Ivan for example is a 2nd year UCI 17-18 racer so it would have been a pretty important season. I think they're considering just sending him to europe.

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



jamal posted:

Our organizer has been floating the idea of small "bubbles" of racers. The regular A/B groups are generally against racing at all. but guess what group has about a 75% "yes" rate?

I'm ok with a year of not racing but it does suck for the kids/juniors. Ivan for example is a 2nd year UCI 17-18 racer so it would have been a pretty important season. I think they're considering just sending him to europe.

Man, the idea of reduced group or bubble racing is just so utterly antithetical to what CX is about for me.

I hear ya on kids - it's been such a rough year for our junior program.
If it's viable to send him that's could be the right call for his racing long term regardless.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


New FTP day , up to 370

TobinHatesYou
Aug 14, 2007

wacky cycling inflatable
tube man


God drat.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

MR.FUSION
#TEAMTRASHMILES


MrL_JaKiri posted:

New FTP day , up to 370

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005

#JusticeForBreonnaTaylor
#BlackLivesMatter
#StillIRise
#Blessed




MrL_JaKiri posted:

New FTP day , up to 370

Motherfuck

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENIÈRE IN ME


I hope you weigh like 250 lbs!

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



If track cycling were suddenly modified so that tracks were ridden clockwise instead of counterclockwise, how much shakeup would there be in performance? How much muscle memory helps cyclists lean left and move up and down a left-sloping banking?

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



kimbo305 posted:

If track cycling were suddenly modified so that tracks were ridden clockwise instead of counterclockwise, how much shakeup would there be in performance? How much muscle memory helps cyclists lean left and move up and down a left-sloping banking?

Interestingly, most tracks would actually have to be rebuilt. The entrance and exit geometry is not symmetrical.
My track is old enough that it is, and it's still weird to ride the wrong way. I bet folks would figure it out after a month or so, though.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Let's say most tracks were capable of being run both ways. Would you rather have a version of the sport where riding both ways was possible? Like either the direction was announced well ahead of race day, or determined by coin flip?

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



kimbo305 posted:

Let's say most tracks were capable of being run both ways. Would you rather have a version of the sport where riding both ways was possible? Like either the direction was announced well ahead of race day, or determined by coin flip?

Oh it'd be massively unsafe to switch it up regularly.

Track racing is one of the safest disciplines precisely because of passing rules and habits - while folks *could* adapt to a change to it going the other way, the habits/reactions need to be second nature, and switching that up would take away from that.

TobinHatesYou
Aug 14, 2007

wacky cycling inflatable
tube man


Let's just make tracks really, really, really long straight lines.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

MR.FUSION
#TEAMTRASHMILES


Run ‘em in figure 8s

TobinHatesYou posted:

Let's just make tracks really, really, really long straight lines.

What if we just used runways?

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



TobinHatesYou posted:

Let's just make tracks really, really, really long straight lines.

What about... really really short straight lines?

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



e.pilot posted:

Run ‘em in figure 8s


What if we just used runways?

https://www.tetongravity.com/story/bike/red-bulls-nyc-figure-8-velodrome-race-is-freaking-insane

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005

#JusticeForBreonnaTaylor
#BlackLivesMatter
#StillIRise
#Blessed




TobinHatesYou posted:

Let's just make tracks really, really, really long straight lines.

Can there be a turnaround at the end of the line?

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Literally Lewis Hamilton posted:

Can there be a turnaround at the end of the line?

Ah yes, tirrano adriatico

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

MR.FUSION
#TEAMTRASHMILES



Yes but without the bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZZyP7VlZcM

tylertfb
Mar 3, 2004

Time.Space.Transmat.

kimbo305 posted:

If track cycling were suddenly modified so that tracks were ridden clockwise instead of counterclockwise, how much shakeup would there be in performance? How much muscle memory helps cyclists lean left and move up and down a left-sloping banking?

Our track has a reverse direction “race” on our final night of the season every year and it is eerie to ride it in the opposite direction, even when nobody is really trying to go fast.

Good Dog
Oct 16, 2008

Who threw this cat at me?

Clapping Larry

e.pilot posted:


What if we just used runways?

RIP The Great Park Crit Series. A classic of Orange County Crits.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRwP6rBwhqw



I just listed my Speedmax with less than 250mi on it on pinkbike. February of 2020 was the wrong loving time to buy a triathlon bike.

I have seen the yet to be announced Speedmax Disc and am hoping to flip this bike for that one before it comes out

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009



Cool thread! I'm a 95% park DH rider that did a lot of DH/Dual Slalom racing growing up but fell out of it for years before returning to riding in my mid-20s. I was never great, haven't won anything and only had sponsorships from a shop I worked at when I was racing.

I'm now at the point where I feel comfortable competing again, signed up for the first race this year actually but it was obviously cancelled with everything else. I had tried an enduro a couple years ago but I couldn't manage the climbs between stages.

My 2021 goals are to hit at least one BC Cup DH race (I'm lower mainland based), maybe some local Canada cup DH races, and whatever little local races happen at Whistler, which is primarily where I ride. Hope to have lots of photos etc for the thread in the spring/summer when it all kicks off!

I floated the idea of making some Goon Factory Racing decals in various sizes/colorways/configurations last year. Would anyone be interested?

Development
Jun 2, 2016



VelociBacon posted:

I floated the idea of making some Goon Factory Racing decals in various sizes/colorways/configurations last year. Would anyone be interested?
post pics!

bicievino
Feb 5, 2015



VelociBacon posted:

Cool thread! I'm a 95% park DH rider that did a lot of DH/Dual Slalom racing growing up but fell out of it for years before returning to riding in my mid-20s. I was never great, haven't won anything and only had sponsorships from a shop I worked at when I was racing.

I'm now at the point where I feel comfortable competing again, signed up for the first race this year actually but it was obviously cancelled with everything else. I had tried an enduro a couple years ago but I couldn't manage the climbs between stages.

My 2021 goals are to hit at least one BC Cup DH race (I'm lower mainland based), maybe some local Canada cup DH races, and whatever little local races happen at Whistler, which is primarily where I ride. Hope to have lots of photos etc for the thread in the spring/summer when it all kicks off!

I floated the idea of making some Goon Factory Racing decals in various sizes/colorways/configurations last year. Would anyone be interested?

Sweet!
Out of curiosity, how does DH racing work in terms of... what's a race day like? Are you on trails you know so it's kinda just show up, do a few runs, compare times? Is it initial times and then finals like a worldcup?
What's the vibe like?

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009




I have a design at home, I'll throw up a screenshot tomorrow when I'm back.

bicievino posted:

Sweet!
Out of curiosity, how does DH racing work in terms of... what's a race day like? Are you on trails you know so it's kinda just show up, do a few runs, compare times? Is it initial times and then finals like a worldcup?
What's the vibe like?

So it's similar to UCI (sometimes is UCI). Friday and Saturday morning practice, qually saturday, race Sunday. Generally no practice sessions between qually and race.

It's divided into groups, so you might have like Jr Elite and Pro Men in group A, U18 men and Women Elite in group B, etc. They stagger the practices so people with wildly different pace aren't running over each other. On race day you line up for your run, get the beep boops and go (love a good beep boop, once you hear it start you have 5 seconds to go at any time), they stagger the riders usually 30 or 45s apart. As a junior I once had to wait on the start platform in the unexpected snow as they medevac'd the guy before me who had a huge crash. I think that was on Vancouver Island or something.

In areas without a chairlift they have trucks to shuttle riders up for practice. At the level of racing I was doing there was never timed practice but you kinda knew how you were doing based on the other riders on the track.

For Dual Slalom they used to have similar practice and timed qually, but for the race they took the qually times and basically folded it in half so that the top qually rider would be vs the bottom. This made more sense in the middle of the pack but got kinda dumb outside that. I once had a crash in qually and had to go against Thomas Vanderham in my first race heat. I can't really remember but I think it went to loser's bracket kinda stuff like a double elimination.

Oh yeah, timing is usually done by laser. In the enduro race that I tried to do you had an NFC token on your wrist that you had to quickly tag on the transponder at the bottom of the stage.

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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Last TT of the season tomorrow, and the first 25 miler of my 9 months or so of competitive cycling. It's not a fast course, partially because it has nearly 800 feet of climbing at up to 8%, and the record is a 51:42 despite being used for a lot of national level events. Almost no wind, which is good, and I shouldn't need water as it's going to be 8 degrees (45 or so in american).

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