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hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Why does anyone do anything?

A treatise in mafia play by ham beet

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Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


hambeet posted:

okay sorry, you are 100% right. i didn't phrase that correctly. i've only phrased it that way when i just responded to you, then though, never to bif. to bif i've pointed out solely that i disagree with her 'jab'.

so can you try again to explain how i am engaging with her to make her look bad? spoilers: my argument would be that she's doing a fine job of that herself.

What do you even mean when you say "you disagree with my jab"?

Do you disagree that binus looks scummy? Ok then,whatever. That prolly can't be it.

Do you disagree that I should have worded it that way? That'd be more annoying but whatever,that prolly still isn't it.

Or do you disagree that it was a jab? Do you believe it's all my big scummy plot instead?


Ok I'm done for the night. It's time to sleep and I don't want to start getting actually heated. But when people try and actually treat you like maybe you really are listening, and maybe you really are just honestly not getting it and if only, if only they could try a little harder they could actually get through to you, so they keep posting, but you just react with something like that?

That's why you get people so frustrated they reach for unfortunate overdramatic terms like gaslighting to describe the experience of getting into a big argument like this with you. But if you're scum you're just doing your job and you're doing it well, so good on ya. If you really do like to try and change up your meta to keep people guessing though, I'd recommend trying a game where you at least rhetorically assume everyone is arguing from a position of townie good faith and speak to them as such. This may turn out to be suboptimal mafia play overall when you don't suspect enough things, but I think attempting the exercise could vastly improve your range.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


DGK2000 posted:

I uh... no. No. NO. It was very clearly him saying either is a dayvig or he isn't. A binary thing. And a science joke. You've latched on to something that isn't A Thing.

Maybe, but now I've seen it and I can't unsee it.

DGK2000
May 3, 2007

Hotel Soap is super proud of his little perfumed balls that never get dirty or stinky

Amnistar posted:

I dont know how many times you want me to say it but your posts don't feel genuine, bif's do.

I see both of them as genuine, and I think this is sort of a slappy fight that has gotten out of hand.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Amnistar posted:

No, I think hw took advantage of a joke made to slip in the claim. Also, im unsure why you're pressing so hard here. I have already acknowledged that no one else is going to beleive my conspiracy theory.

Because once you explained it I realised you were being really dumb and I thought I might be able talk you out of it

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Rarity posted:

Because once you explained it I realised you were being really dumb and I thought I might be able talk you out of it

At this point I don't think you can because then sci gets to be doubly smug after the game if i am right.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





DGK2000 posted:

I see both of them as genuine, and I think this is sort of a slappy fight that has gotten out of hand.

Agreed, this looks like a town on town row to me. I think both beet and Bif should chill out for a bit cause when two players overwhelm the thread with an argument like this it always ends up being beneficial to scum.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Wow. Iíve quite clearly said I disagree with your initial jab, and then also the way youíve tried to portray me when Iíve engaged with you about it.

Actually, can we please take this up after the game because youíre patronising shtick has gone into meta territory.

DGK2000
May 3, 2007

Hotel Soap is super proud of his little perfumed balls that never get dirty or stinky

Amnistar posted:

At this point I don't think you can because then sci gets to be doubly smug after the game if i am right.

Tbh it feels like you two did last game, and we both know what your alignments were there.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


OK, Amnistar. His posting can be broadly divided into three parts that I think all have a scummy motivation... I started this based on a gut feeling, and as I looked into his posts in more detail, there is a trend that I see in here that backs that feeling up.

Using this incredibly reaching "smug scum call back" idea to tunnel on me and refuse to move his vote:

Amnistar posted:

##vote sci

You are the kind of person to put something like this out there to be smug about later.

Amnistar posted:

Softclaiming a "night vig" as scum at the beginning of the game.

Amnistar posted:

I'm more focused on the second half, where you "definately don't have a dayvig" which is soft aiming a might vig.

Amnistar posted:

Just the smug comment about potentially having a nightkill.

Amnistar posted:

I think Sci is scum and I caught them in a deliberate scumslip, so I'm not moving my vote until it is clear they are not an option.

Amnistar posted:

Accidentally yes, but I think it's intentional so Sci can be a smug bug at the end of the game and I refuse to let them have that.

Amnistar posted:

When I read the post I read it as "Before I read my role pm I could have had a dayvig or a non-dayvig (i.e. nightvig) and now I *definately* don't have a dayvig *wink wink*"

Amnistar posted:

I think Sci deliberately said "non-dayvig" instead of "no dayvig" not as a breadcrumb to be found but as something to point at after game and say "See look, I told you I was scum!"

This has a scummy motivation because it's easy to stick to and claim that you just got caught up in your own brilliance: if I get executed, when I flip town, he's got plausible deniability to shrug his shoulders and move onto someone else. If I don't get executed, it gives him a chance to continue to shirk real scum hunting in favour of harping on this stupid "scumslip" or whatever he decides to call it. It's stupid, and ignores the fact that I have never done anything of this sort ever as scum.

Whiteknighting Bif:

Amnistar posted:

I agree with Toalpaz. Bif does not feel like scum to me.

Amnistar posted:

In ythe hambeet v Bif debate, bif looks good, hambeet looks bad.

Amnistar posted:

Bif reads as geniune in their stance. You come across as someone that thinks you've found something and aren't actually interested in any of the responses given. I see this back and forth as scum hambeet seeing a wedge that can be driven and town bif trying to explain why that wedge is dumb and being ignored.

Amnistar posted:

I think Bif is town.

Amnistar posted:

Basically, I read Bif as genuine and you as not genuine in the engagement.

Amnistar posted:

Exccept her arguement does make sense. Which is why I don't think you're being genuine, I think you're being deliberately obtuse to push a narrative.

I think both Bif and Beet are townie in there exchange. The point is that Amni is poking at this argument from the sidelines and driving a "pick a side" narrative. This is scummy because it's not real scumhunting, and it creates a false dichotomy. I would be 100% unsurprised if both bif and beet are town: when I am scum I love it when two townies start targeting each other, because it becomes easy to manipulate the town into executing at least one townie, and I think that's what Amni is doing here. And the really great thing about it is that again, there is plausible deniability to it, and Amni can easily say "who, me?" if two townies get executed.

Fake scumhunting SNG on bullshit:

Amnistar posted:

This, however, feels scummy to me.

Amnistar posted:

The feeling is fine. Postingit is white noise that is setting up for excusing themselves from reading.

Amnistar posted:

Scientastic, what do you think of SNG's entry to the thread?

Amnistar posted:

Naw, how people come into the game shows a LOT about where their mind is. SNG's entry to thread was functionally an excuse for not engaging, which is scummy in and of itself. Absolutely later activity is relevant to alignment, but the action itself stands alone.


I don't think it's enough to move my vote off of scientastic, but I do think it's relevant.


...this post is the right response to what I'm doing which bothers me. I rarely see people acknowledge my superior Day 1 skills....my eyes are on you SNG...

This is not real scumhunting, Amni is just sort of bullshitting his way around SNG's entry post here. SNG's post was fine, and Amni is mega-reaching, but he can also excuse this mega-reaching (and does so) because it's D1. It has an outward appearance of scumhunting, but really all he's doing is throwing poo poo at the wall, while keeping his vote on me for obsessively dumb reasons.

Bonus fourth strand to the case!

Dumb post ascribing scum motivations to me for voting for him, trying in advance to discredit any point I might have

Amnistar posted:

I eagerly await your analysis! You have waited long enough for it not to look like an OMGUS.

Come off it. This is just terrible. Pre-emptively calling me out for an OMGUS and simultaneously implying that I have deliberately timed my vote so as not to make it look like a reaction to his incredibly reaching theory that, as far as I can see, has gained no traction and isn't a real threat to me. I think this is actually slightly telling: Amni is projecting a motivation here, because he is aware of how long ago the vote was and how he would dislike having one vote on him. I don't care about his vote on me, it makes no difference to my play.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Amnistar posted:

At this point I don't think you can because then sci gets to be doubly smug after the game if i am right.

Triple down!

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



that's a good post scientastic and an excellent palate cleanser

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Ok weirdly I feel like Sci is scummy for trying to make a huge deal out of Amni's dumb tunnelling than I do for a single thing that Amni's said

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Rarity posted:

Ok weirdly I feel like Sci is scummy more for trying to make a huge deal out of Amni's dumb tunnelling than I do for a single thing that Amni's said

Mafia edit

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Rarity posted:

Ok weirdly I feel like Sci is scummy for trying to make a huge deal out of Amni's dumb tunnelling than I do for a single thing that Amni's said

That's very silly. The scum motivation for Amni to tunnel me is pretty clear, the town motivation is paper thin. My motivation in calling it out is to show other players that there is a scum motivation to Amni's actions, because so far there seem to be plenty of people who agree that his tunneling thing is dumb, but none who seem to understand why it would be a benefit as a scum play.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Rarity posted:

Mafia edit

hmm i think i disagree with you, and i'll keep saying that over 30 more posts

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


If calling out scummy behaviour is "making a huge deal" of something, I think you and I might not see eye to eye much this game

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


O.o. I love the spin the scientastic. One of bif/hambeet must be scum is something I've never said, instead I am making a case on hambeet, because I think they are scum based on the kerfuffle.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



no you've just said scientastic is scum because you'd hate to be wrong.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Amnistar posted:

O.o. I love the spin the scientastic. One of bif/hambeet must be scum is something I've never said, instead I am making a case on hambeet, because I think they are scum based on the kerfuffle.

What? The first half of that sentence is in direct contradiction to the second half.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Scientastic posted:

That's very silly. The scum motivation for Amni to tunnel me is pretty clear, the town motivation is paper thin. My motivation in calling it out is to show other players that there is a scum motivation to Amni's actions, because so far there seem to be plenty of people who agree that his tunneling thing is dumb, but none who seem to understand why it would be a benefit as a scum play.

I'm not saying it wouldn't benefit scum to make that play, I'm saying I don't believe Amni's got the scum game to make what is a pretty high level play. I don't think most players do cause it's a very out-there move and anyone looking on would assume this is dumb town. That's why you trying to push it looks suss to me.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


hambeet posted:

no you've just said scientastic is scum because you'd hate to be wrong.

True. I won't deny that one.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Scientastic posted:

What? The first half of that sentence is in direct contradiction to the second half.

No? Your case has me presenting an either or scenario. I am not. Bif is town from that interaction. Even if hambeet is town I still think bif is town from that interaction.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Rarity posted:

I'm not saying it wouldn't benefit scum to make that play, I'm saying I don't believe Amni's got the scum game to make what is a pretty high level play. I don't think most players do cause it's a very out-there move and anyone looking on would assume this is dumb town. That's why you trying to push it looks suss to me.

I hate this argument. Scum make sub-optimal plays, just because something's dumb, doesn't make it townie.

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


hambeet posted:

you did good son

Thanks dad.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Scientastic posted:

I hate this argument. Scum can also make sub-optimal plays, just because something's dumb, doesn't make it townie.

Mafia edit

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Amnistar posted:

No? Your case has me presenting an either or scenario. I am not. Bif is town from that interaction. Even if hambeet is town I still think bif is town from that interaction.

Oh, OK, I see what you're saying. I think you're drawing attention to the argument and creating an either/or dichotomy because it suits your ends. I don't necessarily think that you are pushing a chain execution. I guess that was unclear.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Please explain what "either or dichotomy" im stting up if its not 'either hambeet is scum or bif is scum.'

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Scientastic posted:

I hate this argument. Scum make sub-optimal plays, just because something's dumb, doesn't make it townie.

Your response doesn't make any sense. I said this play is either 'dumb town' or 'smart scum' and your response is 'scum can be dumb too'. I mean, yes they can? That's got nothing to do with what I said.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Amnistar posted:

Please explain what "either or dichotomy" im stting up if its not 'either hambeet is scum or bif is scum.'

You are creating a narrative in the thread of focusing all of our attention onto this particular argument and pushing the idea that we must all pick a side.

I get that you want me to be able to point to concrete examples of this, because that discredits my point, but mafia is a game of subterfuge: motives aren't always transparent and players try to manipulate events without being obvious. I think you're doing what I have described.

If other people don't agree, I'm fine with that. Obviously, I don't really care that you don't agree, you're scum.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Scientastic posted:

You are creating a narrative in the thread of focusing all of our attention onto this particular argument and pushing the idea that we must all pick a side.

I get that you want me to be able to point to concrete examples of this, because that discredits my point, but mafia is a game of subterfuge: motives aren't always transparent and players try to manipulate events without being obvious. I think you're doing what I have described.
If other people don't agree, I'm fine with that. Obviously, I don't really care that you don't agree, you're scum.

Please explain how making a case in the thread is not scum hunting (something you claim i am not doing) but is instead focusing all attention?

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Rarity posted:

Your response doesn't make any sense. I said this play is either 'dumb town' or 'smart scum' and your response is 'scum can be dumb too'. I mean, yes they can? That's got nothing to do with what I said.

Yes it does. You are saying there are only two possibilities: dumb town or smart scum, and I am saying that there is a third possibility, that Amni latched onto it and it was a sub-optimal scum play. Sometimes scum aren't masters of 3D chess, they just do things that might not appear to make sense.

There is a scum motivation for doing what Amni has done, I see it, I am genuinely confused why you are attacking me for this.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Amnistar posted:

Please explain how making a case in the thread is not scum hunting (something you claim i am not doing) but is instead focusing all attention?

Can you point me to this case you have made, please?

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Scientastic posted:

Can you point me to this case you have made, please?

....the one you are claiming is me trying to focus attention of the thread? Where hambeet is scum?

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Question mark?

tpink
Feb 18, 2013



Melman

hambeet posted:

man this is a really good day 1

Definitely more engaging than usual.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


hambeet posted:

Question mark?

Me expressing disbelief that sci doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


Amnistar posted:

Maybe "not interested" isn't the right phrasing then. You don't care about any answer given as an explanation. You are engaging to make Bif look bad, not because you think bif is scum.



Basically, I read Bif as genuine and you as not genuine in the engagement.

Do you mean this one? I guess you could call it a case. The "case" is not what I am claiming you are using to focus attention, it is the totality of your posting on the issue. You are misrepresenting what I am saying and hoping that people just won't check.

I find your attacks on my case against you pretty disingenuous, you are needling at tiny points, instead of addressing the whole of it. This is, again, typical scum play.

I am pretty happy with my vote.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

CUTEST IN THE WORLD
QUEEN OF THE SIMPS
RARITY-CHAN





Scientastic posted:

they just do things that might not appear to make sense.

There is a scum motivation for doing what Amni has done, I see it

These two sentences back to back don't seem legit at all ##vote Sci

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Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.


I'm going to make a start on dinner, I should be able to check in at some point between now and bed, but I won't be around for deadline, as usual.

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