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The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


quote:

Realizing that Peggy has woken and has been watching him, the dams break and he bursts into tears, shocking her. She approaches, asking what happened, and he sobs that the only person who TRULY knew him has died. "That isn't true," she promises, whether meaning herself or somebody else or just a nice pleasantry unclear, and rubs his back.

Obviously she can't possibly know, but it actually isn't true that Anna really knew Don. We see him dodge the complete truth when speaking to her about his divorce, in the episode where Stephanie told Don the truth about Anna's cancer (after making a pass at her, which Anna also presumably never heard about). I mean she's certainly the person who knows the most about him, his closest confidant, but he's never really told the whole truth to anyone close to him. Even at the diner with Peggy, while it is comparatively a monumental divulgence of information about himself, he speaks vaguely and tersely.

Edit: more accurately, we don't know if he told the whole truth to her, but I think the audience is led to believe that he omitted certain details about himself and the circumstances of her husband's death.

The Klowner fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 6, 2021

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roomtone
Jul 1, 2021



I think Don means that she's the only one who knows his entire story up until he became Don and started his life in new york. He considers that the 'real' him, and the rest of it just an empty suit he wears, which is part of why he is so hosed up in general. He lets himself away with a lot of bad behaviour because he can detach himself from it as not authentic. The 'real' him is the poor boy he was before going to Korea, and Anna knew about that. We can infer that they probably had many long conversations where he divulged the details.

It's obviously not really true. He is far more Don Draper than Dick Whitman at this point. Anna knew the boy he used to be, and gets presented a laundered version of who he is today. Nobody really gets the whole picture, and that's because he purposefully conceals at least part of it from everybody. He's ashamed both of who he used to be and who he is now for different reasons, and so swings back and forth mentally and physically from coast to coast for relief.

roomtone fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 6, 2021

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



roomtone posted:

I think Don means that she's the only one who knows his entire story up until he became Don and started his life in new york. He considers that the 'real' him, and the rest of it just an empty suit he wears, which is part of why he is so hosed up in general. He lets himself away with a lot of bad behaviour because he can detach himself from it as not authentic. The 'real' him is the poor boy who grew up in a brothel, and Anna knew about that. We can infer that they probably had many long conversations where he divulged the details.

It's obviously not really true. He is far more Don Draper than Dick Whitman at this point. Anna knew the boy he used to be, and gets presented a laundered version of who he is today. Nobody really gets the whole picture, and that's because he purposefully conceals at least part of it from everybody. He's ashamed both of who he used to be and who he is now for different reasons, and so swings back and forth mentally and physically from coast to coast for relief.

This part needs to be in spoiler tags for Jerusalem. This isn't made explicit until season 5.

roomtone
Jul 1, 2021



Oh. I edited it now - the point is just that Anna knew him before he the name Don Draper, anyway.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


Yoshi Wins posted:

This part needs to be in spoiler tags for Jerusalem. This isn't made explicit until season 5.

On this note, the bit about Don being advised to keep a packed suitcase at all times takes on a whole new meaning when you find out exactly what kind of man Uncle Mack was.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


[url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3897992]



The Klowner posted:

"That's what the money is for!" is a classic line, but it also speaks to a fundamental truth about Don's view of money. He appears to believe that money can be exchanged for emotional currency. He wants to avoid conflict; in other words, he wants to ignore the fact that he's unable to give the people in his life what they want from him emotionally.

Don wanted his half-brother Adam out of his life, so he gave him $1000. He gave a $2000 bonus from Cooper to Midge before cutting her out of his life. Betty's father once accused Don of thinking money solves all his problems. It isn't clear at this point how the arrangement between Anna and Don shook out after she tracked him down, but it is clear he felt deeply indebted to her, so he bought her a house. It's clear that he resents and is ashamed of his upbringing, so perhaps it's ingrained in him that the source of his family's problems was their destitution. Poor = sad, therefore wealth = happy, right? (Speaking of, we get to see the Whitman's money troubles firsthand in the final episode of season 3, where we are also shown old man Whitman get killed—which this episode directly references.)

Grappling with the fact that money isn't a substitute for emotional connection is one of the series' most enduring themes. "Money can't buy happiness" is kind of cheesy when you just say it but the show does a good job of exploring that from various angles through its characters.

Ironic as hell considering who Don's mother was, and Don's chip on his shoulder regarding prostitution. After all he swung on Duck as soon as he mentioned the word.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


[url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3897992]



aBagorn posted:

Mad Men, at its core, is a platonic love story between Don And Peggy

I like how this goes to the to the end of the show's question regarding whether Don actually became a better person after falling into a drunken mess even his professional success couldn't help. He reached out to Peggy at the end at the crux of it, a non-sexual yet platonic relationship with a woman, because he has been using sex as a crutch to unexamine himself, yet still reach out for some sort of connection with anyone.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018


Yoshi Wins posted:

Finally, I want to touch on the Muhammad Ali thing a bit. I do think that Don's problems with Ali do have to do with race. But he does actually have a problem with white athletes acting cocky as well. He mentions that he specifically dislikes Joe Namath, whose persona was just as full of swagger as Ali's (although Ali actually backed it up--Namath was actually a mediocre quarterback). And Don has been consistent about believing people shouldn't talk about themselves much, and that he doesn't believe in it, so it does make sense that he would have some distaste for Ali even if he were white.

...Which is why that "MOO-HAMMAD ALI" that Hamm delivers is so perfect. The contempt and the dismissiveness he conveys are so perfect, so revealing. He dislikes Joe Namath, but he can't stand Ali. Good storytelling.

I want to mention that in addition to the racial politics which undergird this whole thing, Muhammad Ali is someone who took on a different name and, in some respects, identity publicly as a counter-cultural action against the dominant culture. Don did the exact opposite thing when he became Don Draper - he dropped his subaltern identity as a poor hillbilly to become the ideal successful 50s white man. This tension obviously permeates the episode, with the last person who knows anything substantive about Don's real identity dying and him giving Peggy a tiny little bit of information about it. To Don, an alias is a tool to hide and assimilate, not to stand out.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Shageletic posted:

Ironic as hell considering who Don's mother was, and Don's chip on his shoulder regarding prostitution. After all he swung on Duck as soon as he mentioned the word.

He also definitely swung in defense of Peggy, in the way someone incredibly drunk but emotional would :allears:

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


It's also incredibly funny in retrospect how everybody is suddenly extremely invested in a boxing match despite the sport never having been mentioned once in the show before.

Anybody remember Floyd/Mayweather? Nunes/Rousey? It was all people were talking about for like two weeks each time. Idk maybe cause I don't follow boxing but it seemed like everyone had an opinion all of a sudden.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



The Klowner posted:

It's also incredibly funny in retrospect how everybody is suddenly extremely invested in a boxing match despite the sport never having been mentioned once in the show before.

Anybody remember Floyd/Mayweather? Nunes/Rousey? It was all people were talking about for like two weeks each time. Idk maybe cause I don't follow boxing but it seemed like everyone had an opinion all of a sudden.

Ali vs Liston was huge. Like way bigger than any boxing match today. Also lol Floyd v. Mayweather.

The fight itself isn't that great. But goddamn are the Three Fraizer Ali fights insane.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Speaking of which, here's an unspoilered post I made about s2e9, "Six Month Leave"

[for context]

quote:

They take a seat at a table and lay their money down, Don a little stiff in this situation and Freddy of all people encouraging him to relax, even pointing out that World Champion Floyd Patterson is there. Roger grumbles that he'll only be champion for a few months more, making Freddy scoff since NOBODY can beat the Champ.

Roger of course would be proven right, as Patterson would be KOed in spectacular fashion by Sonny Liston - funnily enough, there were rumors that Patterson took a dive, so Roger's comments can either be looked at as correctly guessing Liston would be too much for Patterson, or some inside knowledge of a fix being in.

The Klowner posted:

I just noticed that there are a lot of odd parallels between this episode and "The Suitcase." Jerusalem mentions Floyd Patterson was beaten by Sonny Liston... who was then beaten by Muhammad Ali two years later. Both episodes are centered around a Samsonite pitch. In both episodes, Don goes out drinking with a friend, then has a physical altercation with someone who hates his guts. Both episodes feature drunk ex-employees of the company whose body counts in war are explicitly referenced, and who relieve themselves in the office. A blonde woman's death affects Don deeply. Maybe I'm reaching a bit with the last one, but this has to be more than a coincidence right? Is there any confirmed connection between these two episodes?

Not sure what kind of connection I was looking for specifically, but it's fun to consider the narrative throughlines here. Again, you could probably draw a line between "The Suitcase" and every other episode in the show somewhere, it's such a peak.

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009






Boxing was a much bigger deal culturally back then, though not quite in the way you'd think of like baseball or anything. You'd go to a fight in a suit and tie and stay seated, it was a high society sort of thing to attend. A lot of the luster of the sport wore off in the late 80s/early 90s due to many factors, chief among them the fact that it simply got very boring to watch as by then it had become a "solved" sport where the dominant style was (and still is) to play relatively defensively, and the birth of MMA as a counter sport full of (at the time, its now boring and solved too) exciting crazy matchups. Why pay hundreds of dollars to go see two guys juke forever when you can see what wins in a fight, sumo or kickboxing??? the mike tyson stuff in the 90s didn't help the sport's image either

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019

Wow, cool! ... what ??




The Klowner posted:

It's also incredibly funny in retrospect how everybody is suddenly extremely invested in a boxing match despite the sport never having been mentioned once in the show before.

Anybody remember Floyd/Mayweather? Nunes/Rousey? It was all people were talking about for like two weeks each time. Idk maybe cause I don't follow boxing but it seemed like everyone had an opinion all of a sudden.

it's also partly because Ali was such a successful self-promoter, which makes me think on top of everything else Don is also adopting a defensiveness because you're not supposed to tell everyone how great you are and have everyone care and be successful, you're supposed to pay Don shitloads of money so that he can tell everyone how great you are.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Paper Lion posted:

Boxing was a much bigger deal culturally back then, though not quite in the way you'd think of like baseball or anything.

I'd go that far. It was easily bigger than pro football, at the time. The Super Bowl wasn't even a thing yet.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



If you wanna go that route then go from the Phantom punch angle. Lotta people at the time thought Liston threw that fight. Obviously Ali's later fights made that opinion untenable. But Like ali Don's always having to prove he's the best, cause he knows the second he drops they're gonna be on him

Paper Lion posted:

Boxing was a much bigger deal culturally back then, though not quite in the way you'd think of like baseball or anything. You'd go to a fight in a suit and tie and stay seated, it was a high society sort of thing to attend. A lot of the luster of the sport wore off in the late 80s/early 90s due to many factors, chief among them the fact that it simply got very boring to watch as by then it had become a "solved" sport where the dominant style was (and still is) to play relatively defensively, and the birth of MMA as a counter sport full of (at the time, its now boring and solved too) exciting crazy matchups. Why pay hundreds of dollars to go see two guys juke forever when you can see what wins in a fight, sumo or kickboxing??? the mike tyson stuff in the 90s didn't help the sport's image either

Boxing is also hosed six ways to sunday because all of the competing Organizations and belts. The last time we got anything even close to Ali vs. Liston was Pacquiao vs Mayweather, and Mayweather slipped that fight for like three years so Pacquiao was outta his prime. Mayweather himself despite being legit great at boxing, is boring as all gently caress to watch. Nobody wants to see a title fight go to the cards.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

I want to mention that in addition to the racial politics which undergird this whole thing, Muhammad Ali is someone who took on a different name and, in some respects, identity publicly as a counter-cultural action against the dominant culture. Don did the exact opposite thing when he became Don Draper - he dropped his subaltern identity as a poor hillbilly to become the ideal successful 50s white man. This tension obviously permeates the episode, with the last person who knows anything substantive about Don's real identity dying and him giving Peggy a tiny little bit of information about it. To Don, an alias is a tool to hide and assimilate, not to stand out.

This post is quite good. I liked it very much.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*



roomtone posted:

I like this observation and I agree that recognising Peggy's potential and then intervening to bring her back from oblivion is probably the best thing he has done on the show. I don't think it's purely that he was helping someone who needed help, although at the level I mean that, I'm also saying no act can ever truly be selfless. I think it's a combination of Don recognising something in Peggy, him wanting her talent on his team, and him also being satisfied that he is smart enough to recognise a person like this is important - along with the fact that it is one of the rare times Don is actually looking outside himself and paying attention.


But you also see that whatever he told Peggy - the "it will shock you" part. That is Don's advice for everything. Pretend it never happened, move on, be someone different - Don tells that to everyone. And when he told it to Peggy, it was exactly what she needed at exactly the right time. But throughout the series he has a real lousy W/L on it.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Psychologically Don is like one of the species of sharks that needs to swim all the time to breathe. He tells Adam, "My life only moves in one direction: Forward." Like many of his lines in season 1, it superficially sounds kinda badass. But you soon realize how terrified he is of confronting who he is and where he came from.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Yoshi Wins posted:

This post is quite good. I liked it very much.

Yes, I never considered any of that and it's a very good point.

This season even starts with Don decrying the immodesty of "talking about yourself," while Muhammad Ali revels in doing that exact thing. In retrospect, Ali being "rewarded" for his immodesty and for his defiance of bourgeois white norms would be extremely upsetting to Don. All I can think of is the S1 episode where Don leaves Midge's hippie flat in the Village and is told, "you can't go out there!" "YOU can't!" His context is one where the shame and secrecy behind his assumed identity is necessary, that he was ultimately correct to live a lie because society has rewarded him with success for it. This is the cost of passing in affluent circles. Seeing Muhammad Ali thrive as he behaves in the exact opposite way challenges so much about the ways Don has chosen to live.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


[url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3897992]



One thing that is rarely explicitly mentioned but always hangs in the background is the shock and PTSD suffered by vets of the WWII and Korean War.

The majority of people in VA hospitals after WWII didn't have any visible wounds. It's been calculated that at least 20 percent of returning vets suffered extreme PTSD. Don and Duck fighting while mentioning their wars before and after, in a black out drunk, makes sense when you read stories like mentioned here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-greatest-generations-forgotten-trauma/2015/09/11/8978d3b0-46b0-11e5-8ab4-c73967a143d3_story.html

It affected the children of returning vets to, since alot of these people didn't create connections with their children, or had trouble doing so.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



And Okinawa was seriously hosed up even compared to most WWII battles.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Shageletic posted:

It affected the children of returning vets to, since alot of these people didn't create connections with their children, or had trouble doing so.

My dad's dad was Marine infantry, fought at Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Saipan, and Tinian. He was a classic raging Irish drunk, who was apparently taking to random deeply philosophical musings (my dad recalls him often quoting the Koran and the kids having no idea what the hell the Koran was). He wasn't an abusive man, but was distant and hard on his kids. My dad always resented him and says he learned how to be a father from him, by the principle of doing the opposite of what he'd do.

When he passed away, one of the items that passed to my dad was the journal he kept during the war. After reading the absolute horrors that it described, my dad's opinion of his father changed completely. He was a completely broken man that saw and did things that he'd never get over and was struggling with it while it was still going on around him. Turns out his philosophical streak was him trying to rectify his Catholic beliefs with the things he'd seen, studying various religions for insight, and how he couldn't get a grip on it. It was an eye-opening experience for my dad to read what had made his father the way he was. I wouldn't say he forgave him, but he was at least sympathetic to a troubled man.

He passed away when I was fairly young and we weren't really involved with that side of my family, entirely because of his relationship with my dad. His alcoholism and smoking caught up to him well before his time. Part of me wishes I could have known him, because he'd had quite a life with a ton of adventures: coached amateur basketball in post-war China! Played one game for the Chicago White Sox! Caught Ty Cobb out in an exhibition game! Survived a train derailment! But, the injuries he sustained mentally during the war robbed one generation of a father and a second of a grandfather.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



The Klowner posted:

"That queer" is probably a reference to Elliott, who tried to sleep with Sal back in S1:

Goddammit I should have picked up on that :doh:

Yoshi Wins posted:

How'd you like this episode, Jerusalem?

I think it is an incredible episode, though I wouldn't say it is the best episode... mostly because, well...

The Klowner posted:

Every episode is the best episode!

roomtone posted:

It isn't my favourite episode. I don't have one. It's very good though.

But what I love about it is that while it is bookended by the larger office, the vast bulk of the episode is Don and Peggy bouncing off each other - the show is fantastic as an ensemble and I love all the characters, but these two have always seemed to be the core of the show to me. Their own mostly independent storylines crashing together because of course they have to, because for better or worse Don and Peggy are intertwined as characters and seemingly always will be. After a fairly long time where they've mostly just kept it professional and been doing their own thing, having them hauled back together and effectively locked in an empty building together (even when they leave for a meal and a drink or when Duck shows up) and you see just how deeply they are invested in the other as an unexpected kindred spirit.

Yoshi Wins posted:

Another amazing thing about this episode is how Don maintains such a casual tone while revealing so much to Peggy. When he says he never knew his mother, after saying that his father was kicked by a horse, and he grew up on a farm, he has just admitted that he was orphaned as a child. Peggy may not put that together immediately, but she probably will eventually. He also so casually reveals that he's a veteran who hates talking about his war experiences. Don needs someone to be with him on this night, but he's still not ready to admit that to anyone, so he talks about the most serious poo poo ever while acting like he's chatting about the weather.

Yeah, I love how casually he drops the info, especially because he's so jealously guarded it for so long from so many people, and Peggy has no idea just how momentous him sharing these things with her is.... and it's not calculated! Don is vulnerable (and drunk!) and so he's just dropping tidbits he'd never dream of revealing if he was fully in control of his faculties. The fact he can be so open offers a tantalizing (and frustrating!) look at how much better and healthier his life could be if he allowed himself this openness with others at appropriate points, most especially Betty who - in contrast to her disgust for him now - utterly adored him and desperately wanted to know more about him. 10 years of marriage and she barely squeezed out maybe half of what he told Peggy in one night after only working with her for a couple of years.

The Klowner posted:

"Money can't buy happiness" is kind of cheesy when you just say it but the show does a good job of exploring that from various angles through its characters.

It is something I really appreciate about this show, that they often do the most obvious and straightforward things, but they don't just blurt it out or make it painfully obvious because people mostly don't do that in real life either: just look at the fact that Roger's memoirs are clearly a quasi-form of therapy for him ("my mother wouldn't let me eat chocolate ice-cream because it would leave a stain....") but at no point does anybody including him have to say this. Or Don bitching about how therapy is needless but then talking out his issues with Dr. Miller. Or using his work to avoid calling Stephanie (which he semi-admits to only when deeply, deeply drunk and exhausted at like 3 in the morning after losing the "fight" to Duck).

The Klowner posted:

Also, I admit I'm curious whether Jerusalem tried to give the good doctor a google back when he was mentioned in the Honda episode.

I looked up his name when it came up in the Honda episode to see if it was somebody real, and the top result I got was a link saying it was a made-up name so I - thankfully! - didn't look any further into it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

That joyful, expectant look on Hamm's face just before that "queen of perversions" bit is one of my favorite expressions of the series.

Hamm's acting really is exception in this episode. The obvious is there of course, like the way he just breaks down into great heaving sobs over Anna's death when he realizes Peggy has overheard his phonecall. But there are so many great little, subtle moments too, like the sheer horror/dread on his face whenever he hears the phone ring throughout the episode.

Beamed posted:

Don grabbing Peggys hand is such a nice, sentimental moment that really underlined this episode. Rather than pretend the previous night didnít happen, that he didnít just openly break in front of Peggy, he looks and lets her know.. yeah, I let you in. I wonít pretend this is nothing. Itís deeply affectionate in a platonic way.

Yeah I love it, in spite of him having the front back up and the perfect image restored, he takes that moment to acknowledge that no it isn't entirely business as usual for them, he hasn't forgotten that she was there for him when he needed her, even if it is something they will never talk about. Much like until that night neither of them acknowledged or spoke about the time HE was there when she needed it, when she was in for psychiatric evaluation.

ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

I want to mention that in addition to the racial politics which undergird this whole thing, Muhammad Ali is someone who took on a different name and, in some respects, identity publicly as a counter-cultural action against the dominant culture. Don did the exact opposite thing when he became Don Draper - he dropped his subaltern identity as a poor hillbilly to become the ideal successful 50s white man. This tension obviously permeates the episode, with the last person who knows anything substantive about Don's real identity dying and him giving Peggy a tiny little bit of information about it. To Don, an alias is a tool to hide and assimilate, not to stand out.

God this is a fantastic way of putting it. It also never really occurred to me before to think of Don as a hillbilly (I don't think he would either, his father cracked at least one hillbilly joke we can presume given Don's stoned hallucination of his dad while hanging out with that young con-couple), and it does kind of put a funny twist on the fact hillbilly jokes are frequently made on the show... though I also wonder how much of that is a "palatable" way of replacing what were probably far nastier racial jokes likely to have been around at the time.

The Klowner posted:

Speaking of which, here's an unspoilered post I made about s2e9, "Six Month Leave"

Not sure what kind of connection I was looking for specifically, but it's fun to consider the narrative throughlines here. Again, you could probably draw a line between "The Suitcase" and every other episode in the show somewhere, it's such a peak.

That's a really neat parallel to consider, even if it was unintentional.

Yoshi Wins posted:

And Okinawa was seriously hosed up even compared to most WWII battles.

Something that really stood out to me in the scene is the specificity of what Duck said. "I killed 17 men". 17. That's such a specific number, it indicates that Duck kept count, whether for good reasons or bad. If he'd said,"I killed men in Okinawa" or "I killed over a dozen men in Okinawa", that's one thing.... but 17. Not 15 or 20 or any other rounded number, but a very specific and unlikely to be exaggerated/made-up number of 17. Maybe that number haunts him and helps in part to explain his drinking, or maybe Duck takes a deep pride in that number and considers it makes him a man? Which in interesting ways contrasts with another alcoholic WW2 veteran like Freddy Rumsen, who never once mentioned and clearly doesn't enjoy being reminded of the fact he killed a number of Germans during the war, even if Roger is deeply impressed by that fact.

So yeah... wow. Halfway through the series now. This is taking way longer than I thought it would be, mostly due to being really busy and having a lot of deadlines in the real world I have to keep up with, but I am loving the show and really enjoying that I get time to savor it rather than binging through it all in one go, though I fully suspect that once I'm done this won't be the last time I watch this show.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Mover posted:

This is an important ep as it confirms that Don isn’t specced as an Illusionist, as you might have expected, but is in fact a single class Necromancer

tfw you enter combat with a level 1 account exec and roll a 1 on the first melee attack

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


[url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3897992]



Mental health assistance from Peggy, +1 Truth!

Jerusalem posted:

, though I fully suspect that once I'm done this won't be the last time I watch this show.

One of us! One of us!

SuperTeeJay
Jun 14, 2015



I've finished my first rewatch since the original broadcast and still love this show.

Is there an in-universe explanation for Don not stinking of sex when he goes back to the office or home for dinner? I can't count the number of scenes where he jumps out of bed and into his suit. Maybe everyone sweated constantly in 1950's New York?

Parts of the score were much heavier handed than I remember. In season 6, I'm sure the music was quite dramatic when Sally caught Don cheating because the scene - with Don's arse waggling about - could have easily come across as funny otherwise. In season 7, they had to go over the top to make Don - who had just received his 'You're fired!' letter - walking around the office and looking for people seem exciting.

Anyway, Pete was still a poo poo but I felt a lot more sympathy for him this time around and was less impressed with Don in the earlier seasons, which I think was both a mix of knowing where the characters end up and also having entered the working world since I first saw it, where anyone who presents themselves as an immaculate person or professional is invariably full of poo poo.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



I always liked that over the top score bit from season 7, but it was definitely a risk that wonít work for everyone.

Rewatching the show, Iím not sure I remember how my feelings on Pete changed, but I was struck by how abusive Don is to Betty in season 1. Heís always a bad husband to her, but his level of manipulation is really intense in that season in particular. Banning your spouse from grieving her motherís death is pretty drat intense.

Later we come to understand that heís so insecure that he feels like if everything isnít perfect then itís all about to fall apart. But itís brutal to see how much heíll crush Betty to maintain that ďperfectĒ front. And he doesnít even realize that itís healthy to grieve, and that the attempt to be perfect is actually a clear indication of mental health issues. If other people thought, ďthat family doesnít react to the death of loved ones,Ē they would have thought that disturbing, not impressive.

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009






The Klowner posted:

"Money can't buy happiness" is kind of cheesy when you just say it but the show does a good job of exploring that from various angles through its characters.

you say that, but one of the most memorable moments in the show (and easily in my top 3 favourites) is when the show does overtly say that through song and dance to Don, and to the viewer by extension

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004


Paper Lion posted:

you say that, but one of the most memorable moments in the show (and easily in my top 3 favourites) is when the show does overtly say that through song and dance to Don, and to the viewer by extension

this is easily my favorite scene in the entire show

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



SuperTeeJay posted:

Is there an in-universe explanation for Don not stinking of sex when he goes back to the office or home for dinner? I can't count the number of scenes where he jumps out of bed and into his suit. Maybe everyone sweated constantly in 1950's New York?

I have this thought with a lot of shows, just a vague preoccupation with people's hygiene and how horrendous it would be to be around them. Definitely on things like Game of Thrones, which really sells how putrid medieval Europe must have smelled. But yeah, strung-out drunk or post-overnight-affair Don Draper must be....pretty rank.

Maybe all the booze and sweat and BO and other body smells are completely masked by his constant smoking. Having worn a wool suit in New York in the summer, I've definitely gone out of my way to commute home for a shower to feel human again before a night out. That he seldom seems to feel a pressure to do this hits me in a very visceral way.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Xealot posted:

I have this thought with a lot of shows, just a vague preoccupation with people's hygiene and how horrendous it would be to be around them. Definitely on things like Game of Thrones, which really sells how putrid medieval Europe must have smelled. But yeah, strung-out drunk or post-overnight-affair Don Draper must be....pretty rank.

Maybe all the booze and sweat and BO and other body smells are completely masked by his constant smoking. Having worn a wool suit in New York in the summer, I've definitely gone out of my way to commute home for a shower to feel human again before a night out. That he seldom seems to feel a pressure to do this hits me in a very visceral way.

Yeah I mentioned earlier in the thread that even without the sex, Don and Roger must have smelled absolutely awful at all times on account of the nonstop drinking and smoking; the response seemed to be that prior to widespread smoking bans, everyone just kind of smelled like that apparently (or at least were around the smell often enough that maybe it just didn't stand out as exceptional); i suppose adding a bit of sex to the mix isn't enough to be remarkable.

It could also just be that betty being betty (early in the show anyway) she just willfully ignored any suspicious smells by filing them away in the same vault she filed all the other obvious red flags away in

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time


They probably just thought a scene of Betty finding lipstick or perfume on his clothes would be cliche, but Don's Mr. Appearance. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an off-screen city hygiene routine to go along with his fresh desk shirts. We've seen him swimming at some kind of athletic club before. Maybe he hits it up at lunchtime every day and showers afterwards.

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019

Wow, cool! ... what ??




aBagorn posted:

this is easily my favorite scene in the entire show

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



His athletic club is an option, I guess. Though, now he lives in the city. And is divorced, and lives alone. Go home and shower...you don't have to commute to Ossining, it'll take like an hour at most.

Don routinely smelling like a gross mixture of women's perfume, sweat, whiskey, cigarettes, and other bodily fluids should probably have raised some red flags, for sure. But then, every other husband Betty interacted with was also a serial cheater who vanished into the city overnight. I guess that's how all men smell in 1960, oh well!

S6 This is even more ridiculous in Don's affair with Sylvia. This douchebag walks downstairs, fucks his neighbor, then crawls directly into bed with his wife like 5 minutes later. At least S1 Don had the buffer of a few hours at the office and a 90-minute train ride.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Ainsley McTree posted:

Yeah I mentioned earlier in the thread that even without the sex, Don and Roger must have smelled absolutely awful at all times on account of the nonstop drinking and smoking; the response seemed to be that prior to widespread smoking bans, everyone just kind of smelled like that apparently (or at least were around the smell often enough that maybe it just didn't stand out as exceptional); i suppose adding a bit of sex to the mix isn't enough to be remarkable.

It could also just be that betty being betty (early in the show anyway) she just willfully ignored any suspicious smells by filing them away in the same vault she filed all the other obvious red flags away in

they did have showers in the 60s, they're not a 21st century invention

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007


[url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3897992]



Xealot posted:

I have this thought with a lot of shows, just a vague preoccupation with people's hygiene and how horrendous it would be to be around them. Definitely on things like Game of Thrones, which really sells how putrid medieval Europe must have smelled. But yeah, strung-out drunk or post-overnight-affair Don Draper must be....pretty rank.

Maybe all the booze and sweat and BO and other body smells are completely masked by his constant smoking. Having worn a wool suit in New York in the summer, I've definitely gone out of my way to commute home for a shower to feel human again before a night out. That he seldom seems to feel a pressure to do this hits me in a very visceral way.

It does seem that whenever Don gets back home to Betty he hurries upstairs first. Presumably for a shower?

E: Don also haz a bunch of shirts in his desk as seen in the first season and no doubt extra suits in his office

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Shageletic posted:

It does seem that whenever Don gets back home to Betty he hurries upstairs first. Presumably for a shower?

E: Don also haz a bunch of shirts in his desk as seen in the first season and no doubt extra suits in his office

limit your exposure

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



sebmojo posted:

limit your exposure
I'm starting to suspect that Sal isn't coming back :negative:

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Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Shageletic posted:

It does seem that whenever Don gets back home to Betty he hurries upstairs first. Presumably for a shower?

Oddly enough, this wouldn't strike a lot of people as suspicious, especially given that it was a common habit where he spent some of his time as a youth (Pennsylvania coal country). Nor would Betty, who would likely have been aware of it being something people did, even from her upper class background. You came home from work, took a shower, then joined the family for dinner. It could easily be chalked up as just a habit.

Look up what a Pittsburgh toilet is. Despite the name, they were all over coal and steel country from Central PA to Chicago.

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