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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Bismack Billabongo posted:

I would tread lightly here BUT bloggers Tom and Lorenzo do fashion analysis of every episode of the last four seasons as well as season overviews for the first three seasons. They can be pretty interesting IMO. I am linking the oldest entries first so you can avoid spoilers.

https://tomandlorenzo.com/tag/mad-style/page/3/

The recaps can be a bit spoilery and sometimes the screen caps that accompany them will have important moments in them so maybe wait until youíre done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yeah, thanks for the link but I'll wait till I'm done. I'm so close to the end now and I've succeeded beyond my wildest dreams in avoiding spoilers, so I don't want to take any risks :)

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KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Blood Nightmaster posted:

I never thought this episode was particularly bad either but I also don't really think of the two part openers as separate episodes. The back half might be my favorite just for the funeral scene alone, lol

I went and looked out of morbid curiosity; apparently somebody wrote a one-off about Pete having Bob take him to a gay bar in order to do "undercover" market research for a fake brand of pomade and now I'm kind of upset that's not an actual episode

The one titled Two Cups of Coffee has really nailed down Pete's speech pattern

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019

posting power flows from an av with the barrel of a gun





not to open up pandora's box or anything here but isn't it kind of a spoiler that pete survives to s7e1? given the shock of lane's suicide and how much of a shitbag pete is despite having a wife and kid idk ??

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Moddie*



Bob Benson is great and my friend.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I love Bob Benson, but yeah I can see finding him smarmy and unpleasant on first look. He makes it pretty easy to feel that way.

ram dass in hell posted:

not to open up pandora's box or anything here but isn't it kind of a spoiler that pete survives to s7e1? given the shock of lane's suicide and how much of a shitbag pete is despite having a wife and kid idk ??

Eh. "Shocking deaths" aren't really this show's thing. I mean, characters die, but usually in pretty unsurprising and mundane or expected ways, Lane excluded. I don't think it's a relevant spoiler that a wealthy man in his 30's survives the series. It isn't Walking Dead.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Season 6 has always been my favourite season of the show and I am so happy that you're finally tackling it! This is Mad Men at its darkest, funniest, and most lurid.

Yoshee
May 6, 2003


Jerusalem posted:

I gotta say though, opening the episode with Jonesy's POV to presumably make the viewer think it was Don having a heart attack or something is kinda lame and gimmicky.

This episode goes directly with the next so I never thought about it by itself before. But just from reading your writeup I would say that the very first and last scenes address this strange POV choice. The audience is meant to think they know Don's POV in the first scene but are shown to be wrong and by the last scene they bluntly tell you that Don doesn't even know who he is.

I've been looking forward to you getting to this season since the start because I think it might be the richest for your writeup style. Also, Bob is my friend too and he's very nice.

kalel
Jun 19, 2012



ram dass in hell posted:

not to open up pandora's box or anything here but isn't it kind of a spoiler that pete survives to s7e1? given the shock of lane's suicide and how much of a shitbag pete is despite having a wife and kid idk ??

it's avoidable, but for the kind of show mad men is, I don't think it's a big problem. everyone's barometer on this issue is slightly different but I think as long as people aren't spoiling major plot events e.g. Lane's death or upcoming changes to the company, it's fine to talk about certain major characters in the future tense sparingly

kalel
Jun 19, 2012



Bob freaking sucks!!!!!

Jerusalem posted:

Yeah, thanks for the link but I'll wait till I'm done. I'm so close to the end now and I've succeeded beyond my wildest dreams in avoiding spoilers, so I don't want to take any risks :)

spoiler alert: mad men... is good

Scallop Eyes
Oct 15, 2021


When you compare Bob's actions in this episode to what Don did to get hired he doesn't come off as badly. And yes, I also love Stan's beard, it makes him look so much friendlier and nicer.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



I mean, I also strongly disliked Stan when he first showed up and I've grown to really enjoy him... but Peggy was around at the time to put him in his place and force him to be less of a douchebag, so I fear for Bob.

But on the other hand, I strongly disliked Pete on first appearance too, Peggy was around to put him in his place multiple times, and yet he's still a douchebag.... hmmm, this is gonna need more research.

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time


Pete is at liberty to be an rear end in a top hat forever because his family's rich. If they weren't he would have been out on his rear end after season 1 and doing Hare Krishnas with Lakshmi by now.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Randallteal posted:

Pete is at liberty to be an rear end in a top hat forever because his family's rich. If they weren't he would have been out on his rear end after season 1 and doing Hare Krishnas with Lakshmi by now.

Nah, for all of Pete's flaws he at least has ambition (remember Paul was complaining that things couldn't stay the same). He is more likely to to end up like Burt Peterson.

KellHound fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jan 8, 2022

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


Yes, one of the most racially progressive characters on Mad Men is a huge piece of poo poo. Wait, all the racially progressive characters are.

Hmmm.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Vitruvian Manic posted:

Yes, one of the most racially progressive characters on Mad Men is a huge piece of poo poo. Wait, all the racially progressive characters are.

Hmmm.

I mean this is Mad Men, every character is human and has their bad moments (don't say "what about Bobby," Bobby is a Baby Boomer). But also I wouldn't exactly call Abe, Dawn or Shirley huge pieces of poo poo

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Moddie*



Mameluke posted:

I mean this is Mad Men, every character is human and has their bad moments (don't say "what about Bobby," Bobby is a Baby Boomer). But also I wouldn't exactly call Abe, Dawn or Shirley huge pieces of poo poo

you should never forgive Bobby for trading the sandwiches for gumdrops

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


Mameluke posted:

I mean this is Mad Men, every character is human and has their bad moments (don't say "what about Bobby," Bobby is a Baby Boomer). But also I wouldn't exactly call Abe, Dawn or Shirley huge pieces of poo poo

PoCs are presented as fine, if marginalized side characters because the story doesn't care about them. I should have clarified that I meant "members of the main cast" who are all white, because of course in a story set in the '60s the only stories worth telling are white stories with peripheral engagement to PoCs.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



The "progressiveness" of characters like Pete and Paul are in general (so far at least) demonstrated as usually coming from a self-interested place, which is pretty in keeping with their characters in general. Pete doesn't really particularly give a poo poo about black people when he pushes for marketing towards them, he just sees a largely untapped market where they could be making money and is too insulated from the realities of life for POC to grasp why his clients would object to the notion, as well as having no idea how tone-deaf his insistence to the poor elevator operator that anybody can make it in America is.

Paul WANTS to be progressive and open-minded but it's largely because it fits in with his own personal image of himself as the hero of the story, the guy on the vanguard of social consciousness and change. He's a deeply arrogant person (who like Don Draper is also plagued by self-doubt, he's just worse at hiding it) who thinks he's very humble, and taking away the clear comedy beats surrounding everything he does (his Star Trek script :vince:) it's both infuriating and depressing to see how on the surface he has all the right ideas but they're all in some way corrupted by his deeper motivations.

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


Contrasted with . . . ?

Don, who doesn't "see" race?

Rodger, who is openly racist but in a harmless and playful way?

Peggy, who is open to charity towards black people but still thinks they will jack her poo poo?

Betty, fraternizing with the help?

Sure, Paul and Pete's racial progressivism is presented as self-serving. But that's because that is the only way racial justice can be perceived in the show. It's O'Conner's "The Barber".

Vitruvian Manic fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jan 8, 2022

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



I wasn't contrasting them with any of the other characters, just talking about how their "progressive" attitudes are largely self-serving, and it seems like we're on the same page in that respect?

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


I was making an edit at the same time you were posting.


A major theme of the first and second season is "the birth of the modern woman" coupled with the "apotheosis of HRC" which is derailed by real world events and there remains a revanchist anti-black thread throughout the show because "they" "stole" HRC's moment. Now, Weiner can't have black people be the bad guys in the show, it's the old Atwater speech but also he and his aren't actually that mad at black people because they don't really see them as people. But they *can* show that the kind of people who would support a black person over a more deserving white woman are just loving awful people. And they do. Repeatedly.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Do you believe the stupid poo poo you post?

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


Gaius Marius posted:

Do you believe the stupid poo poo you post?

Do you have anything to add, or is this more of your general zero-content white noise posting?

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Mameluke posted:

But also I wouldn't exactly call Abe... huge pieces of poo poo

I would.

Vitruvian Manic
Dec 4, 2021

by Fluffdaddy


Sash! posted:

I would.

Worth noting, the clearest "Abe is an rear end in a top hat" scene is him denigrating The Modern Woman for daring to compare the plight of women to the plight of African Americans with a "Woman's March".

Macinirol
Sep 27, 2011


Vitruvian Manic posted:

Worth noting, the clearest "Abe is an rear end in a top hat" scene is him denigrating The Modern Woman for daring to compare the plight of women to the plight of African Americans with a "Woman's March".

:troll:

Lady Radia
Jul 13, 2021

Despite everything, it's still you.


abe's an rear end in a top hat but he means real well, i stan.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Wait, Peggy is supposed to be Hillary? Peggy is definitely a Republican imo

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009






any time this comes up, i do not understand why people cannot accept that the sort of american white person that has managed to make it to madison avenue just would not give a poo poo one way or the other (at best) about the civil rights movement, and it isnt malice from the showrunners. the most metatextual info we have from them is a combination of what i just wrote with their own acknowledgement that they felt they couldnt really tell those sorts of stories well anyways and didnt want a poor attempt to do so to cheapen not only the show but the importance of those historical events. theres a lot of other really important poo poo happening in the 60s that are getting backgrounded too right now, and if some or any of those pop up again its going to be in the context of how they relate to don draper, because its his story, and not because theyre important for importance sake because this is a show about a character and not a documentary about a time period.

"weiner didnt make his story about rich white men focus around the civil rights movement because he was salty about deeply unpopular hillary losing to one of the most popular presidential run candidates in history" is just schitzoposting, come on dude

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019

posting power flows from an av with the barrel of a gun




Mameluke posted:

Wait, Peggy is supposed to be Hillary? Peggy is definitely a Republican imo

I think "Peggy is supposed to be Hillary" is insane, but Hillary was literally a Goldwater republican lol

R. Guyovich
Dec 25, 1991



Vitruvian Manic posted:

You folks know all he is doing is a shot-for-shot on the episodes.

Like, you can do that on your own and just rewatch.

this is extremely uncharitable. there's plenty of value in having another pair of eyes observing a show you think you've dissected thoroughly

R. Guyovich
Dec 25, 1991



oh wait you're the latest rereg of shbobd or whatever his name was. please continue being a huge rear end in a top hat for no discernible reason

Devorum
Jul 30, 2005



Paper Lion posted:



"weiner didnt make his story about rich white men focus around the civil rights movement because he was salty about deeply unpopular hillary losing to one of the most popular presidential run candidates in history" is just schitzoposting, come on dude

It's their entire schtick. They keep re-regging just to post more batshit "interpretations", then start shrieking when anyone challenges them on it.

kalel
Jun 19, 2012



I think HRC is supposed to stand for human rights campaign?

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Hillary rodham clinton

kalel
Jun 19, 2012



Oh he's talking about real world events meaning when the show aired, re: the nomination + election of Obama? Yeah that is some psycho poo poo

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



kalel posted:

Oh he's talking about real world events meaning when the show aired, re: the nomination + election of Obama? Yeah that is some psycho poo poo

Yes, this show he initially wrote in 1999 is clearly a neoliberal screed specifically interested in revenge against Barack Obama for ďstealing HRCís momentĒ despite making her his SOS.

Vitruvian Manic posted:

Öbecause of course in a story set in the '60s the only stories worth telling are white stories with peripheral engagement to PoCs.

I donít even understand your point. Plenty of stories set in the 60ís are focused on the civil rights movement. If youíre going to complain about period pieces marginalizing POC voices, look to literally any centrist take on the civil rights movement that places white progressives at the center, like Stonewall or The Help.

Mad Men is pointedly saying many of the exact things youíre suggesting, that ďwell-meaningĒ white liberals arenít actually that invested in progressive politics outside of vanity or self-interest.

Like, yes, there arenít many nonwhite characters central to the show, but thatís probably realistic of these charactersí lifestyles in the 60ís. Itís not trying to speak authentically to POC experiences in the 60ís, but itís also pretty explicit about criticizing the white people itís depicting. ďYou know what they say about the South! It isnít 1963, itís 1863!Ē

Lady Radia
Jul 13, 2021

Despite everything, it's still you.


i cant even talk about some of my fave abe scenes yet. i love abe.

R. Guyovich
Dec 25, 1991



kalel posted:

I also feel like the scene where Sandy and Betty talk in the kitchen is way too long. Sandy's character in general seems to have a disproportionate amount of screentime in relation to what her character contributes to the show. It seems her only purpose narratively is to get Betty to be jealous and to realize that young hobos exist. Sandy is given the introduction and initial screentime of an important recurring character but she disappears from the show and from every character's memory after the end of the next episode. maybe Jerusalem will give his thoughts about the character next time but next time will be his only opportunity lol

you think betty's desire to "rescue" this obviously talented girl from what she sees as a ruinous future is about jealousy? there are pretty obvious parallels between betty's youth and sandy's, and reasons why betty might be looking back and seeing mistakes she's made and time she's wasted. that's not jealousy, it's regret. don has a similar journey over several episodes in season 7 with the much-maligned diana.

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Blood Nightmaster
Sep 6, 2011

“また遊んであげるわ!”


R. Guyovich posted:

this is extremely uncharitable. there's plenty of value in having another pair of eyes observing a show you think you've dissected thoroughly

Also yes this, for example the first time I watched through the series I had no clue the car Lane's wife bought him was (ironically) an actual Jaguar because I'm loving car blind. I'm not even kidding, until the writeup here I had no clue :sweatdrop:

I used to look up old episode reviews on the AV Club and The Guardian back then because they really helped me contextualize what I just saw so this thread has been pretty cool actually,

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