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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Franchescanado posted:

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my last gripe. All of previous points are problems, but they don't instill anger or anything with me. It just feels lazy, lackluster, and pointless. "Meh," is about all they're worth. However, I got genuinely frustrated by Louis Tully blasting the ooze at the end. It just seems unnecessary, and kind of a cruel joke on a character I like? "I'm a ghostbuster! I defeated the ooze!" No you didn't Louis. You just wasted time and kinda pissed me off. I don't know why this moment is so frustrating to me, but I got genuinely agitated by it. Just spend time with Janine, who's looking cute as hell in her new Edith Head look.
I will say this, I think Louis actually does have purpose. We establish the whole film that positive energy has an effect on the slime. The Ghostbuster can only get into the museum with the crowd's positive energy. So I've always felt like the timing of Louis blasting at the exact time the Ghostbusters take their last shot wasn't a joke on Louis, it was him rallying the crowd's positive energy one last time. I really do think Louis helped save the day there, albeit it not in the way he thought.

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment



Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

I will say this, I think Louis actually does have purpose. We establish the whole film that positive energy has an effect on the slime. The Ghostbuster can only get into the museum with the crowd's positive energy. So I've always felt like the timing of Louis blasting at the exact time the Ghostbusters take their last shot wasn't a joke on Louis, it was him rallying the crowd's positive energy one last time. I really do think Louis helped save the day there, albeit it not in the way he thought.

That’s a sweet and cute interpretation I hadn’t really considered.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

I don't see why it even matters, Louis thinks he helped and the crowd thinks he helped. Louis is a character who seems to never get a break except for that one time when he turned into a dog and the guys helped him, and finally here's a moment where he feels like he can finally repay them and even be one of them! It's a feelgood moment for him, who cares if he really made a difference or not. He didn't gently caress it up, he didn't make it worse, he didn't lock himself out or step on a rake or anything that his character would normally do. He put the gear on and got the gently caress over there and tried his best to help. A true Ghostbuster.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



Basebf555 posted:

I don't see why it even matters, Louis thinks he helped and the crowd thinks he helped. Louis is a character who seems to never get a break except for that one time when he turned into a dog and the guys helped him, and finally here's a moment where he feels like he can finally repay them and even be one of them! It's a feelgood moment for him, who cares if he really made a difference or not. He didn't gently caress it up, he didn't make it worse, he didn't lock himself out or step on a rake or anything that his character would normally do. He put the gear on and got the gently caress over there and tried his best to help. A true Ghostbuster.

This is how I've always interpreted that scene

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Yeah for as "dour" as I admit GB2 can be I actually think Louis does well in it? Like he's a joke and a victim in the first film. In the second film he's managed to remain friends with Dana and the GBs (or at least trusted associates), he gets together with Janine (and whatever you think of Louis, he's a more receptive object of affection than Egon is and a nicer guy), and then he gets to feel like a hero. I think he was kinda a hero, but even if he JUST showed bravery and stepped up into a dangerous situation to try and save the day I'm still happy for him and think he deserves the applause.

Its funny I don't think I ever saw the setup of the film as too dour. I always felt like as much as they are broke and embarrassed they kind of all landed in natural places. Like I gotta kinda imagine Egon and Ray are happy as researchers and owning an old occult book store. I kinda want to own an old occult book store. I man i'm sure the bills suck and its not as fun but the Ghostbuster thing always felt like a whirlwind that Venkman pushd. And Pete feels like the kind of scoundrel who always lands on his feet.

Don't get me wrong, I can absolutely see the other interpretation. I can see their failure and embarrassment being more and being upset Dana gets charmed by Pete again. Obviously that's part of the story with the birthday scene or the court room. I guess it just always felt like a joke we were all in on to me. Everyone comes out ok and in my head canon Dana dumps Venkman again when his poo poo gets more annoying than fun again.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





I think Louis is an incel self-insert fantasy of being rewarded for just turning up. Why is Janine attracted to him? Janine was a wonderfully acerbic and derisive character in the first film, and leagues more interesting than Louis, and then all of her edges are polished off in the sequel just to support his one-dimensional character arc.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I feel like "incel insert" feels like a bit of a modern insertion. Louis seems like a perfectly nice guy by all accounts. Like his greatest crime in the first movie was not getting the hint that Dana didn't want to be his friend, but he didn't com off as predatory or creepy to me. And we actually see that he behaves the same way with his other party guests/clients. I really can't think of anything from either movie that he really does wrong or screws up, except the court case, but he's clearly pushed into that by the GBs when he's not a lawyer. He's just a successful accountant and ok guy who's kind of socially awkward and wants friends. I like Louis. He got turned into a dog and stuck in an elevator when he had to make.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

Deb is just jealous that he gets to be with Janine.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





I don't doubt that the film wants us to find him relatable, and that this is no doubt due to Rick Moranis' iconic performance. He does however fall into that Revenge of the Nerds archetype which we would today characterise as incel behaviour. My real gripe though is with the fact that Janine is sacrificed to build up his character, when the film is already such a childish male fantasy. If you literally just switched Janine and Louis' roles in the film, it would be a thousand times more enjoyable imho

married but discreet posted:

Deb is just jealous that he gets to be with Janine.

Yes :colbert:

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



I think if he was an incel (a personality type that definitely would have existed at the time, just unnamed), he'd have gone babysitting as a friend with Janine and just tried it on with her when they were alone. He actually asked her out, which for me just makes him a dorky guy who's awkward around people but generally honest about his feelings.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Yeah. The problem with Revenge of the Nerds isn't that they're socially awkward nerds, its that they're creepy predators. If Louis is aggressively hitting on Dana and Janine then he'd be bad. If Louis felt like Dana owed him a relationship because he was a nice guy he'd be bad. If Louis acted the way Venkman did he'd be bad and wouldn't get away with it BECAUSE he's a nerdy little guy and not a charming, confident guy. But I don't think being a nerdy little guy fulfills the "incel" label. Louis is a little desperate but its clearly for companionship, not horniness. And even when he asks Janine out he actually takes the "rejection" and rolls with it until she turns the babysitting into a date.

Would I be attracted to Louis and Egon if I were Janine? Probably not. But Janine seems self assured enough that I don't question she goes for what she wants.

But yes, of course I'd agree the film would be better if Janine was a fuller character and it was less a boys club.

...

Maybe they should remake the Ghostbusters with female comedians?

...

:angel:


edit: After dropping that bomb I'm gonna go watch my 4K Blu Ray copy of Ghostbusters.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 4, 2021

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment



Grimey Drawer

Basebf555 posted:

I don't see why it even matters, Louis thinks he helped and the crowd thinks he helped. Louis is a character who seems to never get a break except for that one time when he turned into a dog and the guys helped him, and finally here's a moment where he feels like he can finally repay them and even be one of them! It's a feelgood moment for him, who cares if he really made a difference or not. He didn't gently caress it up, he didn't make it worse, he didn't lock himself out or step on a rake or anything that his character would normally do. He put the gear on and got the gently caress over there and tried his best to help. A true Ghostbuster.

I don't know why it gave me such a strong negative reaction. Maybe because he could have actually helped? It just seems like a lot of effort to put into a joke, and the punchline is "None of this matters, but he thinks it does." Which could be good. The Coen Bros love that kind of set-up and delivery. But something about it just really frustrated me.

Maybe that's the encapsulation of the whole thing. Louis could have an effect. He could help. The Ghostbusters could be hosed, Vigo could be winning, but then Louis actually helps out and saves them. It'd be a nice change from him being one of the dog keys from the first movie, and would be a nice punctuation to his character arc. Instead, the joke is "nothing happened", which feels like a lame duck. Kinda like so much of the movie's potential.

Wish I had a stronger inclination for why it affected me so much.

I feel like I should clarify: I like Louis a lot. He's a great character in the first movie, and I like that he asks out Janine and that it kinda works out. And I like that he tries to politely let Dana know that he's into Janine now, and that he doesn't want it to affect his friendship with Dana (although he assumes Dana's into him). It just seems like a weird joke. It would be better if Louis is paraded like a hero while the Ghostbusters just walk home in tired obscurity. Something with weight! As of now, it's just empty feeling.

edit: I'm also gonna push back against Louis being Incel, cuz that doesn't have a positive connotation. Louis is a Confident Nerd. He's socially awkward, and a dweeb, and ridiculous, but he's nice and charismatic to a fault. GB1 he's throwing a really nice successful party for all of his co-workers, and his attractive co-worker happily dances with him. Janine likes him too! It's just that Dana and the GhostBusters team are Cool and Jaded, and don't care about confident normies like Louis.

Debbie Does Dagon posted:

My real gripe though is with the fact that Janine is sacrificed to build up his character, when the film is already such a childish male fantasy. If you literally just switched Janine and Louis' roles in the film, it would be a thousand times more enjoyable imho

I would also like to see Janine do more. There's an episode of the Ghostbusters cartoon where she's fed up from being railroaded all the time, I think, and actually goes into why she's an important character. I only vaguely remember it, but Lurdiak has shown it on Scream Stream at least once.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Feb 4, 2021

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment



Grimey Drawer

If you told me the most divisive match-up that upset people was The Faculty vs Ghostbusters 2, I’d have laughed.

I’d believe it, but I’d laugh.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Franchescanado posted:

I don't know why it gave me such a strong negative reaction. Maybe because he could have actually helped? It just seems like a lot of effort to put into a joke, and the punchline is "None of this matters, but he thinks it does." Which could be good. The Coen Bros love that kind of set-up and delivery. But something about it just really frustrated me.

Maybe that's the encapsulation of the whole thing. Louis could have an effect. He could help. The Ghostbusters could be hosed, Vigo could be winning, but then Louis actually helps out and saves them. It'd be a nice change from him being one of the dog keys from the first movie, and would be a nice punctuation to his character arc. Instead, the joke is "nothing happened", which feels like a lame duck. Kinda like so much of the movie's potential.

I think what Louis represents, and this plays into what STAC already brought up, is positivity and an honest desire to do good and help people. That's what saves the day in the end, regardless of whether Louis himself had a direct hand it in. But he's with the crowd on the outside of the building for a reason, he is like the avatar of goodwill towards the other members of your community, he embodies being a Good Neighbor. And it's those good intentions that really win out, that's the deciding factor much more so than the proton packs.

Peacoffee
Feb 11, 2013




Well, I voted a couple of days ago somewhat unhappily for Trouble Every Day and The Faculty. Both match ups were of movies which elicited strong negative responses paired with one which fell flat for me. Frans post is wonderful, and appreciated, as I really can’t bring myself to write much about either of the films I picked lol.

I think Trouble Every Day has lots of merit even if I wasn’t in a good place when I saw it, whereas I’m not as convinced Rabid needs a second viewing. The Faculty is extremely problematic in ways which invite discussion, whereas GB2 feels like its gonna do its thing, get its claps, and take its seat as the GB film to skip.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



Franchescanado posted:

If you told me the most divisive match-up that upset people was The Faculty vs Ghostbusters 2, I’d have laughed.

I’d believe it, but I’d laugh.

Most divisive match up yet

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Wes Craven vs Lloyd Kaufman has a lot of potential for silly anger.

No one was prepared for the war that started between Vampire in Brooklyn and Poultrygeist.

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





That's a Goat vs DDD matchup, and I know I'll be eager to keep Wes' one-and-done streak alive.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I will not let Deb make me cry...
I will not let Deb make me cry...
I will not let Deb make me cry...


Wes will probably lose and I'll probably cry.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Time is up. Lets see the results.


No real surprises here. No one really excited the crowd this week but there were clearly films that went over like a lead balloon. Rabid was a huge flop so even though Trouble Every Day got a pretty cold reaction itself it still had enough to knock out my More Women Directors team. And while The Faculty had its share of problems people had enough fun with it to beat out Ghostbusters II which seemed to just serve to remind people how much more fun they had with the original. So Trix's oddball couple in this tournament of Ivan Reitman and Mel Brooks are out with my Soskas/Takal team. And that sends Fran's Femme Fatales into the second round for a quasi rematch with me and my appropriately polar opposite Team Grindhouse.

Ok, lets see what the US Slasher Conference has in store for us… Spoiler, no US slashers!

4. (MacheteZombie’s The One n Dones) Lesley Manning’s Ghostwatch vs. 13. (STAC Goat’s Team… I don’t know… Cat People?) Robert Wise's Audrey Rose


Man I have a lot of teams in this thing. This one looks like a bad draw though and another case where I suspect I’ll be voting against my own crew. Ghostwatch has become a Halloween favorite of mine and while it has some elements I could see hurting it with this crowd it sounds like Rose has them more. I wanted to make sure Robert Wise and Jacques Tourneur found their way into this thing and they’ll get a chance. It just might not be the best chance.

Ghostwatch
Audrey Rose is on Amazon Prime, AMC+, and Shudder.

5. (married but discreet’s Wuxia Horror) Sun Chung’s Human Lanterns vs. 12. Mike Flanagan’s Doctor Sleep


I love Flanagan, I love King, and Wuxia is so “foreign” to me that I don’t even really understand those quotes. I just kind of think they’re clever? Dunno. So while I think Doctor Sleep is a really good film and a really interesting adaption of Kubrick and King I also have a feeling this one’s gonna go the other way. I’d like to say something about Lanterns but I just really am largely unfamiliar with the genre and haven’t been a fan of what I’ve seen. But I do think its gonna be some popular stuff with the crowd. But Ive gotten used to being on the wrong side of the vote.

Doctor Sleep is of course a sequel to The Shining. It gets a little tricky there as Stanley Kubrick’s classic film is very different from Stephen King’s classic novel, and Flanagan attempts to be faithful to both as best as is possible. There is a Mick Garris version more faithful to King’s story, but its not exactly a good film. So your call how you want to play this. I’d say you really do have to watch Kubrick’s film to get Flanagan’s. It helps to know King’s story but I’d skip Garris’ movie unless you’re crazy like me.

Human Lanterns is on Amazon Prime.
Doctor Sleep is on HBOMax.

Kubrick's The Shining is on HBOMax, AMC+, Fubo, and DirectTV.
Garris' The Shining

That’s all we got. I’m actually looking forward to this one as it more my groove, and no french extremity to be seen anywhere. Hopefully it goes over well with all as its nice to have some mix of stuff in here. But if not there’s always next week.

Vote until 3 AM EST Feb 11th (or when I wake up)

Bracket & Noms Spreadsheet
Letterboxd List

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



This is a fun draw! Other than being mildly irritated at the prospect of seeing Doctor Sleep again, I'm looking forward to the streams

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I am going to do my very best not to be bothered by the inevitable bomb of my King/Flanagan ship.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



I'm interested to see if I've mellowed at all since my first viewing which basically went:

- how dare this have the audacity to be longer than the shining
- rose the hat is a stupid name and she's not remotely scary or even unsettling
- how dare this have the audacity to think I'd be watching it without having seen the shining, and so think it needs to reshoot scenes from that film with worse actors

I actually quite like Flanagan as a director, but I think inviting comparisons between himself and Kubrick makes him look like a hack

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



The thing with Doctor Sleep is I think its a really great King adaption and if you ain't a King fan but your are a Kubrick fan then its "WHY IS THIS PIECE OF poo poo FRAUD PLAGIARIZING KUBRICK!!!!!"

As someone who loves both the Kubrick film and the King novel I find the whole thing really rewarding and all the nods and recreations very satisfying. And as a King reader all the Rose the Hat and shining stuff feels very familiar to me and always part of the bigger package. But for people who just see this as a direct sequel to Kubrick... well I can't understand the intensity people seem to have towards it. But I can get why it would just be this weird film that has nothing to do with "The Shining" until its like "ripping off The Shining." I think that's a very wrong interpretation from a lack of info, but I'm also not gonna blame anyone for not watching a Mick Garris mini series or reading a novel or a dozen others or like seeing NOS4A2 to get on my same wavelength.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



I read a lot of King (although haven't revisited for a while) but I think I only like him on booze and/or coke. I'm glad he got sober for himself and his family, but his writing got less fun for me as a result.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I also think like... the part that so many Kubrick fans seem bothered about in the final act isn't actually him copying Kubrick, its him giving King the ending he originally wrote and finding a way to bridge the gap between it and Kubrick's film.

Now whether that is a good or bad idea or something you appreciate, I dunno. But I definitely think Doctor Sleep is more rewarding as a King fan than as a Kubrick followup.

But of course I can't blame people for seeing it as the sequel to the classic film... because it is.

Its complicated and odd and basically made for me.

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

Pull me out



I actually think the film connects to both King's and Kubrick's versions of the story just fine. Of all the things it tries to do, that is both the most impressive and the most successful. I just didn't find the story especially compelling. King said he wrote Doctor Sleep because people kept asking him what happened to Danny, and that's not a question that ever interested me, so it's a story that started off by having to justify its existence. I don't think it managed that. It has some fun and impressive sequences but I think it needs more than that to be worth almost 3 hours and to be invoking one of the greatest horror films ever made.

If it was a tighter film with a more sharply written villain and the confidence to go back to the Overlook while trusting the audience to remember the scenes it was recalling (cut the flashbacks, basically), I'd have liked it a hell of a lot more. It may be that on a second viewing with more grounded expectations I'll be OK with it, and I'm already trying to prepare myself to set aside my emotional reaction from the first viewing and give it the fairest chance I can.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Yeah, I get all that. I'm gonna do my best to get less defensive about a film I've only seen once. All that "Danny Torrance's adventures with shining people" is obviously an idea that really interests King (if just the shining people less than the Danny part) and its always really clicked with me. Hell, his son basically wrote the same connecting stuff with NOS4A2 and Locke & Key. So I just like, love that stuff. Just the basic idea of all these people in the world with a "gift". And its a bigger part of King's Shining than it is Kubrick's. Its literally the shining. And I think I personally was all on board for a movie about the shining, not The Shining.

But its super over indulgent, and its super different from Kubrick (even when its recreating Kubrick), and its super weird but not in the way a lot of people like weird. So I'm already mentally and emotionally preparing for this one.

The Berzerker
Feb 24, 2006

treat me like a dog




OK, real life deadline stuff has settled down and I will hopefully be participating from here on out. I watched Ghostwatch for the first time around the end of December so I'll likely not rewatch it again so soon, and I am having trouble finding Human Lanterns (it isn't on Prime :canada:) and will hopefully make a stream of it. I've been following the thread so far and just not voting, but am looking forward to getting back into it.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

Oooh, really interested to see Doctor Sleep, but if it beats Human Lanterns I'm going to yell.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Ohh this will be an interesting week because I've seen and enjoyed Doctor Sleep and Ghostwatch, but not so much that these other films don't have a chance. I've heard a lot of good things about Human Lanterns and I love the wuxia/horror combo so yea that one definitely has a good chance at winning my vote, and Audrey Rose has also been on my radar for a long time. Plus I own Doctor Sleep on blu ray so it's always nice to be given an excuse to actually use something I've already spent money on.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007






*Bangs fists on the table*
Ghostwatch!

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



could someone please prepare for me an edit of Doctor Sleep that is under two hours tia

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007






Uncle Boogeyman posted:

could someone please prepare for me an edit of Doctor Sleep that is under two hours tia

Co-signed.

Preferably 30 minutes

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



hell i'd settle for an edit that is just a different Ewan McGregor movie, maybe Shallow Grave

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007






Uncle Boogeyman posted:

hell i'd settle for an edit that is just a different Ewan McGregor movie, maybe Shallow Grave

Careful a monekys paw somewhere might curl and give an attack of clones fan edit

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



MacheteZombie posted:

Careful a monekys paw somewhere might curl and give an attack of clones fan edit

I mean, the video of him learning the title is surely one of McGregor's best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6klOn2DZ3fY

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007






Lol I had never seen that. What a great response

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



I actually posted the wrong one, this is the one I was thinking of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwL8wlBMflA

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Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005

Nosferatu Enthusiast
@shrecknet



Just watched Human Lanterns:

quote:

The ethereal, dream-like qualities that make Giallos almost unwatchable to me - the wild explosions of color and oneiristic plotting - are what Human Lanterns brings in spades. Essentially a Giallo kung-fu Shaw Brothers production, Human Lanterns doesn't bother much with escalating tension so much as descend almost instantly into full-bore insanity with the enthusiasm of someone who doesn't really know what they're doing but is gonna do the hell out of it.
The sets, costumes and - as always - stunt work are so incredibly well-done it's hard to fault it for the absolute schlock that it offers in terms of plot and performances, and although it whipsaws back and forth from a cheesy Saturday-afternoon UHF tone to some really gruesome grindhouse places, it's hard to really be disappointed.

Human Lanterns isn't always good, but it is always trying its best.

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