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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 14, 2021

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Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



It’s literally such a choppy movie, characters change looks and personality from scene to scene and sometimes within the same scene

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Metaphorically. But we know for certain the suit is partially bulletproof.



This guy was super proud of himself for a few seconds

Violator
May 15, 2003



Robot Style posted:

Snyder did a Q&A a few years ago and apparently Cyborg is the one who does the calculations that allow Flash to travel back in time to warn Bruce in BvS, so it's likely that he's actually still alive in that timeframe.
It's also supposed to explain why Flash is "too soon" in BvS. Because Flash can travel through time but not space, they need the Earth to be at the same point in its rotation around the sun, or else he'll end up floating in the void when he gets to the past. Cyborg's able to calculate two viable points in spacetime for Flash to visit, but Batman remembers that the one they chose initially was too early, so he gets them to go to the other one instead, and may be what triggers his premonitions in this movie.


As someone who grew up listening to Art Bell and paranormal stuff, when I realized that time travel would likely involve XYZ coordinates in the universe made me feel like a genius. "Aliens from the future are actually humans further evolved and they need space ships because the earth is in a different galactic position" made a lot of sense to teenager me. I'm super jazzed that it's apparently part of JL because it makes sense in that type of pseudo science that a Superman would exist in.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





Neither Man of Steel nor BvS is anywhere near as cynical as Watchmen, a film which ends with space 9/11. Compare the use of Hallelujah in Watchmen with the use of Hallelujah in the JL trailer.

Violator
May 15, 2003



MacheteZombie posted:

This guy was super proud of himself for a few seconds

I don't know why, but I absolutely loved Batman taking a headshot and shrugging it off.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester


josh04 posted:

Neither Man of Steel nor BvS is anywhere near as cynical as Watchmen, a film which ends with space 9/11. Compare the use of Hallelujah in Watchmen with the use of Hallelujah in the JL trailer.

A second kryptonian has hit Wayne Tower

Bullbar
Apr 18, 2007

The Aristocrats!


What can I say I like the flash

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





RBA Starblade posted:

A second kryptonian has hit Wayne Tower

Sometimes I just make incorrect posts!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Bullbar posted:

What can I say I like the flash

You mean the guy who attacked and choked someone?

Ezra Miller is lower on the list of People Who Shouldn't Be Getting Acting Work than some of the other co-stars but he's still a piece of poo poo.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Bullbar posted:

What can I say I like the flash

I’ve been waiting my entire life for the Flash in a movie and Whedon made him fall on some tits like come onnnn

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


MacheteZombie posted:



This guy was super proud of himself for a few seconds

He's not having it today!

Bullbar
Apr 18, 2007

The Aristocrats!


ImpAtom posted:

You mean the guy who attacked and choked someone?

Ezra Miller is lower on the list of People Who Shouldn't Be Getting Acting Work than some of the other co-stars but he's still a piece of poo poo.

Well I mean the comic book character, not specifically Ezra Miller

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Neurolimal posted:

If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

You're right. If you simplify the argument and also get it wrong, then cite other films that don't fit this new argument either, then its refuted.

Violator posted:

I don't know why, but I absolutely loved Batman taking a headshot and shrugging it off.

"aah" like he just stubbed his toe is a loving great gag.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



Neurolimal posted:

If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

Difference being that those weren't directed by Zack Snyder. People don't like him for some reason and there's a reason why folks mockingly post about the Randian Objectivist poo poo - there's an industry of hot-takes about the filmmaker's politics from youtubers, bloggers and the like. Yeah, psycho-analysis of people not liking the film in general terms isn't good form, but people do it to Zack Snyder and his fanbase all the time. But also keep in mind that "not my superman" talking point was a thing because that's what it boiled down to. When the Snydercut was announced you had a lot of people talking about rewarding a toxic fanbase in the same tone as they'd talk about Trump both-siding literal neo-nazis and Antifa. All fanbases have bad apples and I wouldn't lump TLJ fans with the same Star Wars fans that were pieces of poo poo to the actresses who starred in that film. You can see why people get defensive when people do that.

All just feel like caveats to rationalize the main point of "I did not like this adaptation of this character". The reason why the discourse is so lovely is because of overzealous Zack Snyder fans on social media and people profiling the filmmaker as some super Objectivist Fascist. Things would be a whole lot more pleasant if those two groups understood that not everyone has to like their film/filmmaker and it's okay to understand that this adaptation isn't for you and to move on. A lot of criticisms at this point have devolved into meme so if you engage in good faith chances are you'll just get some meme in return expecting to understand "why it's bad" or whatever.

Bullbar
Apr 18, 2007

The Aristocrats!


Snowman_McK posted:

Even if you didn't like any of the three, regarding JL as the least bad is still completely mystifying.

I admit the other two are probably better made and have less troubled productions, just JL had more elements/characters/whatever that I enjoy from DC so it felt like less of a slog.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Neurolimal posted:

If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

People pretend to hate Man of Steel because of its color palette or violence or whatever, but as you point out they're perfectly fine with other movies containing those things. The actual objection is political, not aesthetic.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Jimbot posted:

Difference being that those weren't directed by Zack Snyder. People don't like him for some reason and there's a reason why folks mockingly post about the Randian Objectivist poo poo - there's an industry of hot-takes about the filmmaker's politics from youtubers, bloggers and the like. Yeah, psycho-analysis of people not liking the film in general terms isn't good form, but people do it to Zack Snyder and his fanbase all the time. But also keep in mind that "not my superman" talking point was a thing because that's what it boiled down to. When the Snydercut was announced you had a lot of people talking about rewarding a toxic fanbase in the same tone as they'd talk about Trump both-siding literal neo-nazis and Antifa. All fanbases have bad apples and I wouldn't lump TLJ fans with the same Star Wars fans that were pieces of poo poo to the actresses who starred in that film. You can see why people get defensive when people do that.

All just feel like caveats to rationalize the main point of "I did not like this adaptation of this character". The reason why the discourse is so lovely is because of overzealous Zack Snyder fans on social media and people profiling the filmmaker as some super Objectivist Fascist. Things would be a whole lot more pleasant if those two groups understood that not everyone has to like their film/filmmaker and it's okay to understand that this adaptation isn't for you and to move on. A lot of criticisms at this point have devolved into meme so if you engage in good faith chances are you'll just get some meme in return expecting to understand "why it's bad" or whatever.

I don't like Snyder because he makes rape jokes and hires abusers. There are precious few directors I genuinely like because a lot of them are loving awful people who have openly either contributed to or ignored Hollywood's history of abuse. It is possible to dislike a director and still think positively of their work but not everyone is going to be able to get over that hill. God knows I've had a hard time enjoying a lot of movies these days because the odds that a rapist or monster is going to be put in a sympathetic role is hard for me to get past. Justice League is a little worse than most but it isn't like Avengers doesn't have Jeremy loving Renner and Chris Pratt (not to mention much worse director Joss Whedon) just off the top of my head.

Acting like anyone who dislikes Snyder's behavior is just upset about Superman Portrayal is frustrating because Snyder has done some genuinely lovely stuff. Again not anywhere as bad as the OTHER Justice League director but I don't think anyone in this or any other thread is going to bat for Joss Whedon anytime soon.

And I actually like Man of Steel and my primary problem with BvS is that it focuses so much on Batman and shoehorns in a bunch of Justice League setup that detracts from the movie less than anything else. Snyder is an excellent director visually and I'm at least curious to see what he does, but him intentionally going out of his way to hire on Leto is a huge black mark to me and makes it harder for me to justify supporting The Snyder Cut when one of their primary marketing tools is Leto.

I'm probably going to end up watching it anyway because I'm a lovely nerd and the curiosity is overwhelming but it's super depressing in a way Amber Heard isn't because instead of having someone cast ages ago in existing footage it's bringing back someone who had already been removed to film new footage.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Feb 14, 2021

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





what rape joke? When he said that prison rape was darker than anything in comic movies?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Rape jokes? Snyder can barely bring himself to say a naughty word in most of the interviews I've seen

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



2house2fly posted:

Rape jokes? Snyder can barely bring himself to say a naughty word in most of the interviews I've seen

"Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go."

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester


It's not a joke but I'm guessing it's about what he'd have had happened to Batman in prison

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


drat, the one quote from over a decade ago.

I heard James Gunn has some tweets you're going to hate.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



RBA Starblade posted:

It's not a joke but I'm guessing it's about what he'd have had happened to Batman in prison

If it isn't a joke then that is even worse. "Man, how do I make a superhero movie dark? I have someone get raped" is an abhorrent thing to say and something a lot of comic writers are rightly criticized for using carelessly.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


I'm not even sure how you could misinterpret that. What he's saying is that Batman is not dark. Batman is cool. Darkness is not about brooding over how cool it is to be a ninja.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Roth posted:

drat, the one quote from over a decade ago.

I heard James Gunn has some tweets you're going to hate.

Those were also lovely jokes. He has long since apologized for them where Zach Snyder has not. He is also the same guy who said "You said you enjoyed the theatrical cut of Justice League like you enjoy your Saturday morning cartoons… Well this is made for grownups, so you’re not in the demographic. Also, cool of you to comment on a leaked teaser" which is in fact the exact same attitude people criticize from the bad segment of the Snyder fandom. He isn't Mr. Rogers.

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





ImpAtom posted:

If it isn't a joke then that is even worse. "Man, how do I make a superhero movie dark? I have someone get raped" is an abhorrent thing to say and something a lot of comic writers are rightly criticized for using carelessly.

why is it bad for a film maker to discuss hypothetical scenes in a film? Are you saying that it makes light of real rape? I do not follow you here.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


ImpAtom posted:

If it isn't a joke then that is even worse. "Man, how do I make a superhero movie dark? I have someone get raped" is an abhorrent thing to say and something a lot of comic writers are rightly criticized for using carelessly.

The quote was in response to an interviewer saying that Nolan's Batman is "dark" like Watchmen. Snyder points out that it's still a movie where Batman trains to be a cool ninja. The movie he's referring to is his adaptation of Watchmen. A movie with rape in it.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

ImpAtom posted:

"Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go."

It's a stretch to call that a joke; I guess it's kind of flippant. It's just an example of the kind of things actual dark movies have in them; Rorschach doesn't actually get raped in prison but Watchmen does have rape in it so the subjects are kind of adjacent

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005



One of the most beloved movies of the last thirty years has prison rape as a major plot point in the first half.

“I’d like to say Andy fought the good fight, and the Sisters let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But prison is no fairy-tale world. He never said who did it, but we all knew.”

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



well why not posted:

why is it bad for a film maker to discuss hypothetical scenes in a film? Are you saying that it makes light of real rape? I do not follow you here.

When discussing how you make a movie about a man in a bat suit dark your answer is "include rape" then yes, that is lovely. This isn't unique to Snyder and Alan Moore (to use a similar example) has been largely and heavily criticized lately for doing exactly that. The Killing Joke may be one of the most influential Batman stories ever but it still features a scene where Barbara Gordon is sexually terrorized by The Joker which is both unnecessary and disgusting considering it comes right after he shoots her which is horrifying enough on its own without the needless inclusion of sexual terror.

The Cameo posted:

One of the most beloved movies of the last thirty years has prison rape as a major plot point in the first half.

“I’d like to say Andy fought the good fight, and the Sisters let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But prison is no fairy-tale world. He never said who did it, but we all knew.”

There is a significant difference between how the Shawshank Redemption handles it (and to be honest The Shawkshank Redemption playing into the 'evil rapist prisoners' stereotype has aged like poo poo) and doing it in a superhero movie.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Here's the mythical, logic defying way to understand that Snyder did not want to actually make a Batman movie where he gets raped:

He did not have Batman get prison raped in BvS.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





This is a grimdark topic of discussion for a superhero movie thread.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





ImpAtom posted:

The films are still power fantasies though? Like through and through. Batman in particular will never escape being a power fantasy and even if BvS gives him the Space Racism angle they also give him tons of scenes showing how cool and awesome he is. Superman is still plenty power fantasy, it's just the more angsty "why don't people see" kind of power fantasy. And Wonder Woman basically exists to swoop in with a kickin' rad theme and kick the poo poo out of a monster and look neat doing it.

There is nothing not power fantasy about the Snyder movies. They represent flawed characters but that does not preclude the other because there is a large genre of power fantasy which revolves around that and uses it as melodrama fuel. There are absolutely people for who the Snyder films are fun power fantasy. You can argue they are misreading the film but when the film goes out of its way to present Batman kicking the rear end of a room full of people in brutal violent ways as Fuckin' Sweet there is at least some element of that there.

The major difference is largely what people want in their power fantasy. Snyder's films are very focused on the idea of the Great People who stand above and the difficulties they face from jealousy, spite and hatred, whereas Marvel has decided to go all-in on the idea of 'normal people' who obtain great power. Both are power fantasies it just depends on what flavor of power fantasy you enjoy.

Saying Snyders Superman is empowering is certainly a strange take, unless one finds it empowering to constantly be questioned, belittled or demonized by Society. He's constantly second guessing himself, unsure of how to best go about helping people who have legitimate reasons to be scared shitless of him. Even when he uses his powers, arguably what the power fantasy about Superman centers around, it comes off as almost horrifying and scary, it's more akin to a natural disaster than anything else.

Batman is portrayed as a violent sociopath vigilante that prowls on the underclass and commits extrajudicial violence while the cops look the other way, and he's deranged enough that he now outright plans to commit premeditated murder. Yeah, he looks cool while he kicks a dude into a grenade he's still portrayed unsympathetically for large portions of the film. Him being a broken person is very much not part of a power fantasy, kickass action sequence not withstanding. Like, the "fantasy" of Batman is that of a super ninja with a moral code who has tons of cool toys and can "Disable you 25 ways, 2 are lethal, 4 really hurt" and then cripple a dude, but will never kill, because he's a good guy, honest! Him killing is voiding the fantasy, because that's the one figleaf people have of him being a hero, and you take that away and there's no hero left, just a bully.

And that's where I think the problem is for a lot of people. Ultimately a lot of these folks watch these movies for the fuzzy feel good feelings, and both BvS and MoS very specifically don't give the audience that. They're not interested in seeing "angsty Superman", they want the confident Smiling version that saves kittens stuck in trees. Instead these films gives them space 9/11 and shows their heroes as undecisive or fallen seeking redemption, and that's not going to be in everybodies wheelhouse.

I also disagree with your assertion that the MCU is about "Normal people" who obtain great power. There's nothing normal about a billionaire, let alone one that can invent an infinite power source in a cave, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS, or being a literal god of thunder, and Captain America was specifically chosen because he wasn't normal. There's nothing "normal" there. And Black Panther is a king of a futuristic nation with technology centuries ahead of anyone else. Hell, even the Hulk is now a team player who has no issues controlling his anger (unless a mcguffin fucks him over). Like, maybe hawkeye and Widow would be considered normal, but they didn't do anything interesting with them so eh

You are right about WW though.

Rabelais D
Dec 11, 2012

ts'u nnu k'u k'o t'khye:
A demon doth defecate at thy door

Lol that this is your argument against Snyder, he once made an off-hand non-serious comment that mentioned prison rape. Why won't he do the good thing and apologise to the world?!?

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





goofy logic

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB




He makes one off color joke and you shame him? Get over yourself.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



McCloud posted:

Saying Snyders Superman is empowering is certainly a strange take, unless one finds it empowering to constantly be questioned, belittled or demonized by Society. He's constantly second guessing himself, unsure of how to best go about helping people who have legitimate reasons to be scared shitless of him. Even when he uses his powers, arguably what the power fantasy about Superman centers around, it comes off as almost horrifying and scary, it's more akin to a natural disaster than anything else.

Have you ever heard of The X-Men? Being an outsider who is rejected by society but having the power to ignore that is totally a power fantasy. Even the melodrama and angst that goes with it is part of the fantasy. If it wasn't then nobody would want to be any of the X-Men, even ignoring the fact the majority of them are superpowerful supermodels.


McCloud posted:

Batman is portrayed as a violent sociopath vigilante that prowls on the underclass and commits extrajudicial violence while the cops look the other way, and he's deranged enough that he now outright plans to commit premeditated murder. Yeah, he looks cool while he kicks a dude into a grenade he's still portrayed unsympathetically for large portions of the film. Him being a broken person is very much not part of a power fantasy, kickass action sequence not withstanding. Like, the "fantasy" of Batman is that of a super ninja with a moral code who has tons of cool toys and can "Disable you 25 ways, 2 are lethal, 4 really hurt" and then cripple a dude, but will never kill, because he's a good guy, honest! Him killing is voiding the fantasy, because that's the one figleaf people have of him being a hero, and you take that away and there's no hero left, just a bully. :

Again, this really doesn't mesh because this argument would suggest Batman is almost never a power fantasy. It's just a different kind of power fantasy. The Punisher is also a power fantasy and he is a literal violent sociopath vigilante who does all those things and is known for killing. Even in versions where he is portrayed as his most broken and awful it still goes out of its way to show how cool he is when he kills people and works to give the viewer a sense of satisfaction when he murders the Real Bad Guys. You're not removing the power fantasy by having Batman kill people, you're just shifting it even more over to the Punisher then most modern Batman already is.

I am not saying this is a wrong interpretation of Batman. It is absolutely not and certainly the "billionare who beats up poor people" thing has gotten worse and worse over the years. But it absolutely is a power fantasy and even the elements of being broken or hosed up don't prevent it from being a fantasy when it plays so hard into those elements.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Feb 15, 2021

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



ImpAtom posted:

There is a significant difference between how the Shawshank Redemption handles it (and to be honest The Shawkshank Redemption playing into the 'evil rapist prisoners' stereotype has aged like poo poo) and doing it in a superhero movie.

Snyder did not put prison rape in a super hero movie, he used it in a interview as an example of a “dark” story you could do in a setting such as the Watchmen universe.

At a certain point you’re asking the guy to apologize for mentioning the fact that prison rape is a thing that exists in too flippant a manner

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Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Like ImpAtom, someone said they liked the Flash and you said “you mean the character played by a woman assaulter!?

What are you trying to accomplish here if not making people feel morally wrong for liking the wrong brand of super hero movies

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