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Bullbar
Apr 18, 2007

The Aristocrats!


Darko posted:

People have jumped on you. I'm not trying to. Heres a simple question.

How do you feel about the score/music progression between MoS and BvS as compared to Justice League and how that informs what shows up on film? Only asking to see if we are talking about the same things.

I'm probably going to revisit them all in the lead up to this snyder cut coming out, so I'll let you know.

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Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



The Man of Steel series takes place in a setting where superheroes don't previously exist, just a handful of powerful beings who aren't quite sure what to do with themselves as they go around living in a society.

The DC Cinematic Universe does contain a film where the existence of superheroes is taken as normal in this way, however: Shazam.

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





Watch the first 5 minutes of Batman V Superman and pretend you don't know what a Superman is. Bruce Wayne looks up as he clutches that kid and sees two kryptonians. Not Superman fighting Zod. Just two aliens making the city into scrap. How could he know that Superman was a benevolent force?

live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


well why not posted:

Watch the first 5 minutes of Batman V Superman and pretend you don't know what a Superman is. Bruce Wayne looks up as he clutches that kid and sees two kryptonians. Not Superman fighting Zod. Just two aliens making the city into scrap. How could he know that Superman was a benevolent force?

Isn't Batman's thing being super prepared/the world's greatest detective? Seems like he could've looked into Superman at some point between the attack on Metropolis and trying to kill him.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





RBA Starblade posted:

Everyone's already said the myriad ways that these films are absolutely power fantasies but on top of that, consider also you get to bang Amy Adams and live in a cool studio apartment

Don't wanna get dragged too much into "is it/isn't it a power fantasy" because I don't know how much that alone tells you about the films, but Man of Steel is very different to BvS in this regard: In MoS Clark has neither an apartment nor a budding relationship with Amy Adams, in BvS he gets to cook his cool reporter gf some obviously fake eggs in an apartment outside the reach of any news intern.

In MoS Clark has the power but using it is ineffectual and is ruining his life, in BvS he has the power and a cool life but everyone's mad at him on the TV news and these billionaire are trying to kill him.

live with fruit posted:

Isn't Batman's thing being super prepared/the world's greatest detective? Seems like he could've looked into Superman at some point between the attack on Metropolis and trying to kill him.

He does, and has the Dick Cheney response.

Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs


live with fruit posted:

Isn't Batman's thing being super prepared/the world's greatest detective? Seems like he could've looked into Superman at some point between the attack on Metropolis and trying to kill him.

It wasn't a question of being unprepared/a bad detective, because he does completely succeed in his mission to never let that happen again. He just needed to see supes in a different light. You can't really deduce your way into empathy, and Bruce basically locked his away in his mother's tomb.

live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


Shanty posted:

It wasn't a question of being unprepared/a bad detective, because he does completely succeed in his mission to never let that happen again. He just needed to see supes in a different light. You can't really deduce your way into empathy, and Bruce basically locked his away in his mother's tomb.

But the idea is that Bruce just sees "sees two kryptonians, not Superman fighting Zod." The military was aware of what was going on. That Superman was benevolent was known.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



Batman is very well-researched and well-prepared for the kind of threat that he thinks Superman is: an all-powerful space tyrant who considers humanity beneath him. Lex Luthor, on the other hand, is happy to let the whole world fear Superman's power so that they come and buy Kryptonite weapons from him, but he knows from the beginning that the "man" part of "Superman" is the vulnerable part, which is why that's the part he attacks.

These respective conclusions reflect the two men's biases and traumas. Bruce thinks of someone disguising himself as a human the way he himself wears a human disguise in order to do his real work of dressing up as a demon and passing judgment on the wicked - to him, that's what a secret identity is for, and anything else is irrelevant. Lex keeps tabs on extraordinary people of all kinds because of his own preoccupation with the nature of divinity: he knows they're not gods, so they must be mortals - and no man is an island, not even Superman, so he knows there's someone to find.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







live with fruit posted:

But the idea is that Bruce just sees "sees two kryptonians, not Superman fighting Zod." The military was aware of what was going on. That Superman was benevolent was known.

That was brought up and accounted for, "if there is even a 1% chance he could become a threat we have to treat it as an absolute certainty". Bruce is jaded as hell after spending 20 years fighting crime in Gotham with nothing to show for it, most of his enemies were good people turned bad by terrible circumstances and corruption is rife at every level. He simply doesn't believe that someone with Superman's power will remain good and not become a civilization-ending threat some day.

live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


McSpanky posted:

That was brought up and accounted for, "if there is even a 1% chance he could become a threat we have to treat it as an absolute certainty". Bruce is jaded as hell after spending 20 years fighting crime in Gotham with nothing to show for it, most of his enemies were good people turned bad by terrible circumstances and corruption is rife at every level. He simply doesn't believe that someone with Superman's power will remain good and not become a civilization-ending threat some day.

I guess this is my problem with BvS. I think it would've gone a lot further if, instead of seeing the Waynes get murdered yet again, the opening was an actual scene of Robin getting murdered. Every Batman loses his parents but not every Batman starts branding people so they can get murdered in prison and it feels like the audience is just expected to go along with this interpretation.

brawleh
Feb 25, 2011

I figured out why the hippo did it.



ImpAtom posted:

It is how the characters are presented.

Huh? You’re just talking about how Marvel presents their characters as celebrity billionaire philanthropists/techno-feudal kings, but who are approachable/relateable or whatever. Thor didn’t lose his abilities just because he’s gained a bunch of weight, he just wasn’t cover of the swimsuit edition hot.

And who gives a poo poo about about WB/DC films? They’re not into Snyder’s interpretation of the characters, how do we know this? Well this thread isn’t about the loving theatrical cut. The difference between that and the Snyder cut in terms of how it handles these characters will be pretty significant.

Though something like Clark’s memory of having a stupid argument with his dad just before he loses him, are incredibly human moments. You can’t compartmentalize these scenes of characterization away without losing track of the narrative because they’re part and parcel of who Clark is and like more generally, what the movie is.

Hell, Snyder's interpretation of Bruce Wayne was trying to find a way to step back from the brink with this character, through the link of his mother. Where Stark just straight up escalated his war on terror - him eating a big mac doesn't change that.

brawleh fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Feb 15, 2021

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



live with fruit posted:

I guess this is my problem with BvS. I think it would've gone a lot further if, instead of seeing the Waynes get murdered yet again, the opening was an actual scene of Robin getting murdered. Every Batman loses his parents but not every Batman starts branding people so they can get murdered in prison and it feels like the audience is just expected to go along with this interpretation.

I didn't have an issue with this because we saw the dead Robin suit in BvS (a Robin suit spraypainted with Joker stuff all over it basically meant that) and no new Robin with him, and we know every single Batman goes bad without a Robin in every continuity anyway.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Superrodan posted:

There was also very little fun in that movie. The mall scene was like that sitcom trope of someone that doesn't know how to have fun doing something they think is fun and then turning to everyone and saying "See? I'm fun!". and it just got worse from there.

I think the only person having fun was Kristen Wiig, near the beginning anyways. Oh and maybe one or two of the scenes with Chris Pine catching up on the 80s.

Still really funny that literally everything Chris Pine was supposed to be impressed by was stuff he already would have seen having been in WW1 London.


live with fruit posted:

I guess this is my problem with BvS. I think it would've gone a lot further if, instead of seeing the Waynes get murdered yet again, the opening was an actual scene of Robin getting murdered. Every Batman loses his parents but not every Batman starts branding people so they can get murdered in prison and it feels like the audience is just expected to go along with this interpretation.

A big theme of the BvS version of Batman seems to be focus on his mother rather than his father for once; Martha Wayne usually is barely an entity compared to Thomas.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


ImpAtom posted:


At no point do I go into a DC or Marvel story expecting realism because it isn't something they can provide. Even Snyder's films basically assume a fairly normal world despite having backstory that is anathema to that because it isn't really easy to structure and create such a world. And that is *absolutely fine.* The story is the important part, not the plausibility thereof.

It's fine if that isn't the story you want to see but the reasoning behind it is that superhero stories are specifically structured not to do that, at least the kind DC and Marvel tell. Hell part of the reason Watchmen stood out and still kind of does is that it does show a world where superheroes existed and it basically changed a ton of things and even if all those changes aren't super plausible it's a world that can't be our world even in goofy little ways (like superhero comics being replaced by pirate comics.)
...

Comic-book superheroes are largely structured to be a certain way, that is - extremely insular (Detached from history/culture), and petrified of taking risks/tackling big ideas, which results in deeply conservative works, both creatively and politically. But this extends far beyond just superhero fiction, to what I think is the reason for a lot of bad genre fiction as well as contemporary U.S. literature (U.S. authors even say they’re proud that their fiction is about nothing, as a way to proudly emphasize their dedication to pure craft and the aesthetics of language).

But as you’ve said, Watchmen & The Dark Knight Returns were watershed moments for the comic book genre, because it presented genuine new possibilities for the form by shedding the insularity of its past in a turning to the world. The problem is that the comic book industry used the new spotlight to exploit the ‘serious’ and ‘adult’ aspects purged entirely of their social/political content, and so the traumatic opening created by Moore and Miller was closed up and the extant history is used to justify its own continuance: superhero fiction has always been this way, so it can’t be any other way and compelling stories can’t be told otherwise. But there’s no such thing as inevitable forward progress.

Superman previously destroyed slums to force the U.S. government to improve the material conditions of the underclass. Where did this guy go? Sure, it's kind of dumb, but when was the last time a superhero did anything as interesting as this?



Brawleh is right that the real contention about Snyder is politics & ideology, since the typical complaints about his DC work is beloved in other superhero films and even the most ardent critics admit that his films are well designed. Nerds cheered TDK Joker killing a bunch of people in really dark ways, but are committed to Batman not killing - All of this is political. People deride his films for being CGI-fests, but the Avengers films, particularly the latter ones, are far more egregious.

As a genre filmmaker, Snyder not only isn’t afraid to touch sacred cows, but often finds that that’s the most creatively interesting thing to do (Hence Zod’s snapped neck). What makes him not simply a contrarian or nihilist, in the vein of Brightburn (2019) or Super (2010), is his commitment to following through as honestly as he can. Post-Watchmen, he doesn’t think there is a ‘going back’ to a world where Raimi’s Spider-Man 2 is considered the platonic ideal of comic book filmmaking, and in the process wants to redeem the mistake of the comic book industry in the realm of studio blockbuster filmmaking.

Of course, you can say that Snyder is failing to do it well, but I disagree that it’s not worth trying in the first place because of tradition.

live with fruit posted:

I guess this is my problem with BvS. I think it would've gone a lot further if, instead of seeing the Waynes get murdered yet again, the opening was an actual scene of Robin getting murdered. Every Batman loses his parents but not every Batman starts branding people so they can get murdered in prison and it feels like the audience is just expected to go along with this interpretation.

Certainly, the death of Batman’s parents has been a staple of every Batman film, but we should recognize how Snyder does it differently and how dependent the entire structure of the film is on that opening. “Martha” memes aside, the theme of parental figures permeates the film. While Batman is having nightmares about his parents and his mother being a monstrous vampire, Superman is able to turn to his mother and (The idea of) his father to find a calm island in times of crisis. The film makes Lex Luthor into a Jr., and although Luthor Sr. is long gone, his presence remains an ominous specter over the film.

Robin’s murder is an important event, but far more crucial to Batman’s descent is Snyder’s critique of Batman’s entire vigilante career. Clark investigates Batman and is deeply troubled that he’s mostly targeting the underclass with the consent of the police (An investigation that his boss doesn’t want him to do in lieu of puff pieces, the film’s critique of private news media under contemporary capitalism). Batman reflects on the fact that he hasn’t been able to cause real change, that “Criminals are like weeds” - the trauma of losing his parents to street level crime has him blinded to a structural analysis, which he comes face to face with at the end of BvS when the justice system lets Lex Luthor off free.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 15, 2021

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Lex Luthor having extreme daddy issues strikes me as building on his Smallville characterisation, where Lionel Luthor is basically his prototype.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

KVeezy3 posted:

Comic-book superheroes are largely structured to be a certain way, that is - extremely insular (Detached from history/culture), and petrified of taking risks/tackling big ideas, which results in deeply conservative works, both creatively and politically. But this extends far beyond just superhero fiction, to what I think is the reason for a lot of bad genre fiction as well as contemporary U.S. literature (U.S. authors even say they’re proud that their fiction is about nothing, as a way to proudly emphasize their dedication to pure craft and the aesthetics of language).

But as you’ve said, Watchmen & The Dark Knight Returns were watershed moments for the comic book genre, because it presented genuine new possibilities for the form by shedding the insularity of its past in a turning to the world. The problem is that the comic book industry used the new spotlight to exploit the ‘serious’ and ‘adult’ aspects purged entirely of their social/political content, and so the traumatic opening created by Moore and Miler was closed up and the extant history is used to justify its own continuance: superhero fiction has always been this way, so it can’t be any other way and compelling stories can’t be told otherwise. But there’s no such thing as inevitable forward progress.

Superman previously destroyed slums to force the U.S. government to improve the material conditions of the underclass. Where did this guy go? Sure, it's kind of dumb, but when was the last time a superhero did anything as interesting as this?



Brawleh is right that the real contention about Snyder is politics & ideology, since the typical complaints about his DC work is beloved in other superhero films and even the most ardent critics admit that his films are well designed. Nerds are cool with the TDK Joker killing a bunch of people, but committed to Batman killing none [b]is[/i] political. People deride his films for being CGI-fests, but the Avengers films, particularly the latter ones, are far more egregious.

As a genre filmmaker, Snyder not only isn’t afraid to touch sacred cows, but often finds that that’s the most creatively interesting thing to do (Hence Zod’s snapped neck). What makes him not simply a contrarian or nihilist, in the vein of Brightburn (2019) or Super (2010), is his commitment to following through as honestly as he can. Post-Watchmen, he doesn’t think there is a ‘going back’ to a world where Raimi’s Spider-Man 2 is considered the platonic ideal of comic book filmmaking, and in the process wants to redeem the mistake of the comic book industry in the realm of studio blockbuster filmmaking.

Of course, you can say that Snyder is failing to do it well, but I disagree that it’s not worth trying in the first place because of tradition.


Certainly, the death of Batman’s parents has been a staple of every Batman film, but we should recognize how Snyder does it differently and how dependent the entire structure of the film is on that opening. “Martha” memes aside, the theme of parental figures permeates the film. While Batman is having nightmares about his parents and his mother being a monstrous vampire, Superman is able to turn to his mother and (The idea of) his father to find a calm island in times of crisis. The film makes Lex Luthor into a Jr., and although Luthor Sr. is long gone, his presence remains an ominous specter over the film.

Robin’s murder is an important event, but far more crucial to Batman’s descent is Snyder’s critique of Batman’s entire vigilante career. Clark investigates Batman and is deeply troubled that he’s mostly targeting the underclass with the consent of the police (An investigation that his boss doesn’t want him to do in lieu of puff pieces, the film’s critique of private news media under contemporary capitalism). Batman reflects on the fact that he hasn’t been able to cause real change, that “Criminals are like weeds” - the trauma of losing his parents to street level crime has him blinded to a structural analysis, which he comes face to face with at the end of BvS when the justice system lets Lex Luthor off free.

This is great stuff. Thank you.

live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


KVeezy3 posted:

Certainly, the death of Batman’s parents has been a staple of every Batman film, but we should recognize how Snyder does it differently and how dependent the entire structure of the film is on that opening. “Martha” memes aside, the theme of parental figures permeates the film. While Batman is having nightmares about his parents and his mother being a monstrous vampire, Superman is able to turn to his mother and (The idea of) his father to find a calm island in times of crisis. The film makes Lex Luthor into a Jr., and although Luthor Sr. is long gone, his presence remains an ominous specter over the film.

Robin’s murder is an important event, but far more crucial to Batman’s descent is Snyder’s critique of Batman’s entire vigilante career. Clark investigates Batman and is deeply troubled that he’s mostly targeting the underclass with the consent of the police (An investigation that his boss doesn’t want him to do in lieu of puff pieces, the film’s critique of private news media under contemporary capitalism). Batman reflects on the fact that he hasn’t been able to cause real change, that “Criminals are like weeds” - the trauma of losing his parents to street level crime has him blinded to a structural analysis, which he comes face to face with at the end of BvS when the justice system lets Lex Luthor off free.

Batman is both the point of view character who has understandable reasons to distrust Superman, even though the audience knows he's good because he was the hero of this first film, but also a vicious vigilante who's deeply troubled and condemns any criminal he comes in contact with to death. It's like Snyder wanted to have his cake and eat it too. At least the death of Robin would have given Batman a concrete breaking point that he could eventually work back towards.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Gatts posted:

This is great stuff. Thank you.

Cheers! Thanks for reading.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Lex Luthor having extreme daddy issues strikes me as building on his Smallville characterisation, where Lionel Luthor is basically his prototype.

I’m not too familiar with Smallville, but an interesting thing BvS notes is that Lex Sr. grew up in East Germany under tyrannical rule, and Lex Jr. inherits his father’s disdain for communism by going full anarcho-capitalist and directly linking Superman to a communist tyrant.

Maybe comic-book heads can confirm – was this historical connection invented for this film?

live with fruit posted:

Batman is both the point of view character who has understandable reasons to distrust Superman, even though the audience knows he's good because he was the hero of this first film, but also a vicious vigilante who's deeply troubled and condemns any criminal he comes in contact with to death. It's like Snyder wanted to have his cake and eat it too. At least the death of Robin would have given Batman a concrete breaking point that he could eventually work back towards.

I'm not sure I follow - How is that having your cake and eating it too? Batman explicitly says at the end of BvS that he failed Superman.

Atrocious Joe
Sep 2, 2011

I'll leave the past in the past, tomorrow's not promised
And today's just an anime titty I guess that's why it's the present







KVeezy3 posted:

I’m not too familiar with Smallville, but an interesting thing BvS notes is that Lex Sr. grew up in East Germany under tyrannical rule, and Lex Jr. inherits his father’s disdain for communism by going full anarcho-capitalist and directly linking Superman to a communist tyrant.

Maybe comic-book heads can confirm – was this historical connection invented for this film?

This is probably drawn from Ayn Rand's biography. She lived through the Russian Revolution and early Soviet Union, came to the US and became a capitalist zealot.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Blasphemy. Why would the preeminent uber-objectivist filmmaker of our time use Ayn Rand's history to inform the origin story of a supervillain?

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Oh, you didn't know? Lex is the good guy.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



Ayn Rand's life story would make for the best and most entertaining mockumenery ever conceived. Her entire life is just a big dose of dramatic irony. She lived off the welfare state while claiming it was supreme evil and got super pissy when her boytoy started sleeping around, following the tenants of her broken, toxic philosophy. It's glorious. It's no wonder why failsons and daughers love her philosophy so much because she was like the ur-faildaughter, except she didn't quite fail upwards as much as they did.

hiddenriverninja
May 10, 2013

life is locomotion
keep moving
trust that you'll find your way


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwlT2mblEFg

drat I am so hyped for this new (original?) score

PeterCat
Apr 8, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 9 hours!



It was fun explaining to my non-comic book movie watching wife the joke of Leto's Joker putting on Ledger's Joker makeup and doing a Joker meme. Several layers going on there that relies on way too much context for people who aren't seriously online.

I do think that Leto's Joker would have a Twitter account though.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

live with fruit posted:

But the idea is that Bruce just sees "sees two kryptonians, not Superman fighting Zod." The military was aware of what was going on. That Superman was benevolent was known.

Bruce clutching the child in the ruins in one arm, while his other hand fishes out his iPhone and keeps hitting refresh on col Hardy's blog

commielingus
Jan 23, 2021

by Athanatos


Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

I don’t get the complains on the CG. I think it looks good and projects power and character.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.
Games Idiot Court Jester



"Bruce, revive me!"

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008




This doesn't work because his design is better than anything in that franchise.

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal


This is incredible and I say that as someone who genuinely thinks this Darkseid looks awesome.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

hiddenriverninja posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwlT2mblEFg

drat I am so hyped for this new (original?) score

gently caress me.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Blood Boils posted:

Bruce clutching the child in the ruins in one arm, while his other hand fishes out his iPhone and keeps hitting refresh on col Hardy's blog

feeling cute might die a good death later

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





RBA Starblade posted:

"Bruce, revive me!"

Lol I can hear the gow voice acting in this post

Farg
Nov 19, 2013



https://mobile.twitter.com/valaval_/status/1361121652629716998

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



hiddenriverninja posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwlT2mblEFg

drat I am so hyped for this new (original?) score

this is loving incredible

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

It slaps for sure

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Jimbot posted:

This doesn't work because his design is better than anything in that franchise.

He’s another black and grey CGI monstrosity that’s lost all the Neo-fantasy esque touches of his original design to do a big angry guy in space armor.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Darkseid, very famously, is not grey

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Nodosaur posted:

He’s another black and grey CGI monstrosity that’s lost all the Neo-fantasy esque touches of his original design to do a big angry guy in space armor.

Theres really only so much you can do with naturally lighting Darkseid grey and blue design in making him live action.

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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


KVeezy3 posted:

I’m not too familiar with Smallville,

Smallville is fascinating but it's also unbelievably bad and it runs for 10 seasons of 20+ episodes each, which means that much as I'd love to hear more people's takes on it I can't really ask them to suffer through it.

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