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It's like six words to memorize with a relatively consistent pattern, not exactly rocket surgery
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# ? Feb 19, 2025 05:27 |
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Garu and Zio also already make sense if you associate them with 'Garuda' and 'Zap' from other JRPGs/terminology. Media is similar to Medic or Medica. The Raku/Taru/Suku terms are probably the most confusing of the bunch but pattern recognition and repeated use just drills it in you after a while.
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Was playing around with Fusion now that I unlocked some options and not only got my first fusion mistake, but freaking two in a row! And the second one gave me a level 50 Arsene with 2 99 stats. Dear lord
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Commander Keene posted:[*]Tetrakarn reflects one physical attack back to the attacker (I don't know if it exists in this game though; I haven't seen any repels at all yet). Now that you mention it, I haven't seen any Personas with the repel affinity either, just drain. I guess maybe they figured repel would be difficult to implement into a musou type combat system. quote:Megido is Almighty (an element almost but not quite like non-elemental spells in other RPGs; very seldomly resisted). As far as I can remember the only thing that's ever resisted Almighty was Beldr in Devil Survivor, because they went for the mythological story where everything in existence vowed never to harm him, except for mistletoe. He doesn't just resist it, he flat out nullifies it, so you have to find a phone charm made of mistletoe to actually be able to damage and defeat him. ApplesandOranges posted:Honestly it's much better in P5(S) because anything that's non-status has a handy icon like fire or snowflake next to it so at least you can tell at a glance what element it hits or if it's a heal/buff/debuff. You then just have to work out buffs and debuffs. The game is nice enough to give you a description when you're in the Persona menu so you can immediately tell what the buff/debuff stuff does. It's just an issue when you're using the food items because it just says "Applies Matarukaja effect" and it's like great, okay, which one is that again? For what it's worth I've played a few SMT games and a bit of P3 and beaten P4, so I'm mostly familiar with elemental stuff but Nuke and Psy are new ones to me. I have no idea if they were in P5 or not and I think they're kind of weird as far as elements go. Morpheus posted:It's weird how I just parse all those weird elemental terms without even thinking these days, as opposed to back nearly two decades ago (loving hell) when I first picked up Digital Devil Saga and was like 'what the gently caress is a boofuh' I'm Vinny, and I cast Bufu on things I shouldn't.
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Nuke and Psy were in P5, yes, that's what Makoto/Haru's elemental affinities were. They were from P1/P2 (Nuclear was Force then) and were left out of modern Persona until now. They're generally less common than the other four and are mostly 'capitalize on Technical' elements (Wind is the only other one that can score a Technical on anything that's not Dizzy). Makoto can score the most Technicals practically since Nuclear gets Technical on Burn/Freeze/Shock and it's rarer to inflict the status ailments that Psy likes, but she's probably the worst at it out of anyone other than Ann and Sophie (who can't really do it at all) because she doesn't get Technical Expert like Morgana/Haru and scoring Technicals with physicals generally gets better results since chances are you have the HP to do it while spamming magic just runs you dry (in my opinion). She does eclipse Haru late game at it though.
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm Vinny, and I cast Bufu on things I shouldn't. ApplesandOranges posted:Nuke and Psy were in P5, yes, that's what Makoto/Haru's elemental affinities were. They were from P1/P2 (Nuclear was Force then) and were left out of modern Persona until now. They're generally less common than the other four and are mostly 'capitalize on Technical' elements (Wind is the only other one that can score a Technical on anything that's not Dizzy).
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Spiffster posted:Was playing around with Fusion now that I unlocked some options and not only got my first fusion mistake, but freaking two in a row! And the second one gave me a level 50 Arsene with 2 99 stats. Dear lord I'm so mad at you Game done, game good. Omega Force can make good games when motivated.
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Twelve by Pies posted:Now that you mention it, I haven't seen any Personas with the repel affinity either, just drain. I guess maybe they figured repel would be difficult to implement into a musou type combat system. Nuke and Psy are new to P5, and were in vanilla/Royal (though IIRC Nuclear existed in like Persona 1 or 2 as the game's Almighty equivalent).
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There is actually a hidden damage modifier in persona games for damage types, most noticeable in those rock type guys from P4, they take very little damage from almighty despite being supposedly neutral to it. You can also see it with some of the enemies super susceptible to status effects
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Persona 2 had Nuclear and Almighty as separate elements, and Devil Summoner used Psi skills. SMT just has, like, fifteen elements and every time a game comes out they roll some dice to figure out which ones get shuffled in and out. Maybe Persona 6 will bring back Aqua and Magna.
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I think Psy/Nuke were decent additions since in P3/P4 you had the issue of characters doubling up on elements because what else. So Koromaru/Junpei both used Fire, and Ken used Elec because the Eiga/Kouga line didn't exist there and they needed to have your Mudo/Hama guys have some way to do damage. Similarly, Teddie took over as the Ice caster in P4 since Chie pretty much used physicals, and they gave Naoto all four elements in P4G since otherwise she was pretty useless in boss fights other than throwing out expensive Megido spells that didn't do much more damage than actual casters. There's no repeat elements in the P5 lineup, just nobody being a Curse user since that's kind of Joker's in theory due to Arsene. Akechi had some Curse spells but his main focus as a party member was Bless. Honestly I'm just more appreciative that they gave Bless/Curse actual damage spells.
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it is very appropriate that i named my main character shaggy rogers in p5.
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Actually Jail 5 got me wondering some things since I didn't play P5, nothing major or necessary to enjoy the story but as someone who played previous games I'm curious. What exactly is the Metaverse/cognitive world? Persona 3 didn't really have an equivalent, I mean there was the Dark Hour but it wasn't really a world, just a period of time. Persona 4 had the TV world which was essentially humanity's subconscious thoughts about how they viewed people. It seems like the Metaverse grants "superpowers" to the Phantom Thieves they can only use there, at the very least when Zenkichi asks them to do that stuff shortly before Jail 4, Ryuji says they more or less can't in the real world. This makes it different from the TV world since the P4 cast could summon Personas there but were still just regular kids. How do people awaken their Personas? In P3 they had to have the fear of death, thus the Evokers. In P4 they just had to go into the TV world and face their Shadows and accept them as part of themselves. It seems like awakening a Persona in P5 also involves facing their Shadow (at the very least, (Jail 5 spoiler) it looked to me like Zenkichi was talking to his Shadow, though instead of accepting it it seemed more like he fought against it, which was what you didn't want to do in P4's case). Finally, how do people's Shadows get created in the Metaverse, and what exactly are their goals? In P4, a person had to go into the TV world and they spawned a Shadow version of themselves. The Shadow would then attempt to get the person to reject them, so that they could become their own person, and then try to kill the person they were created from. In P5, the Shadows seem to already exist in the Metaverse regardless of whether someone has gone there or not, but I guess not everyone has a Shadow, and it also seems they're uninterested in trying to replace the original. They also seem like they know and experience everything that their real world counterpart does, though this doesn't work the other way around.
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YggiDee posted:Persona 2 had Nuclear and Almighty as separate elements, and Devil Summoner used Psi skills. SMT just has, like, fifteen elements and every time a game comes out they roll some dice to figure out which ones get shuffled in and out. Maybe Persona 6 will bring back Aqua and Magna. It's not immediately obvious at times, but there's more than 15 elements in most games. That's why the vast majority of them do not display every element in a nice easy to understand way like you see in the modern Persona games. There's simply too many. Persona 1 is probably the most needlessly excessive, because on its own has 28 of the things. Even that still doesn't include all of them though. Anyway, bring back Gravity for Persona 6.
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Twelve by Pies posted:Actually Jail 5 got me wondering some things since I didn't play P5, nothing major or necessary to enjoy the story but as someone who played previous games I'm curious. Here's a fairly summarized version of it, but I'll try to hit as many points as possible. The Metaverse is essentially the world formed by human subconsciousness. It generally doesn't exist on a strong enough level in most areas, but can form when there's someone with a distorted viewpoint (Palace rulers) or when there's enough concentrated subconscious thoughts that it just naturally builds up - in P5, it was basically the subway system since it was packed with people all day. When a Palace ruler's cognition is stopped or changed, that area of the Metaverse collapses and can no longer be accessed. This is a fundamental difference from Jails. The key word is basically cognition. Morgana is the biggest example of this; to most people, he sounds like a cat. But when you hear him talk in the Metaverse, your brain becomes cognizant of the fact that he can talk, and so in the real world you subconsciously associate him with 'oh, he can talk' and all his meowing makes sense. In that regard, the Phantom Thieves' abilities in the Metaverse are a similar style; because they're considered 'dangerous' in the Metaverse, that cognition grants them power; in other words, if a Palace ruler considers them to be threats, then in that sense, they are threats. It doesn't mean they're powerless if they're not considered threats since the whole point of Persona users are their strength of heart and rebelling against what other people think of you, but cognition very much shapes the reality of the Metaverse. There are various instances where the PTs had to change someone's cognition in reality to affect the Metaverse; the calling cards are a notable example of that. Both the Metaverse and reality can affect each other. The difference is who's controlling each dimension. People are aware of Morgana talking because it's their own cognition of an individual. The PTs can't affect reality on that scale to summon their Personas in public, so they have to use their actual physical abilities. It's also why they get wiped out whenever they come back from the Metaverse; their bodies actually catch up to them from all the stunts they effortlessly do in the Metaverse. P5 Persona users awaken to their powers by gaining the strength of rebellion. In other words, they face up against a world that rejects their view and their defiance forms their Persona. It's similar to P4 in a way, in that it's basically strength of will. That will manifests itself in their Persona. I guess a slight difference is that it's less 'accepting' their Persona and more 'okay you're that rebellious side of me that I can finally set free'. In the Metaverse, again, cognition shapes everything. Thus, each person has a subconscious version of everyone they meet. So if, say, Ryuji had a Palace, there might be versions of Joker or Ann or Futaba in his Metaverse dungeon as how he views them. You could say that there are multiple Shadow versions of anybody, depending on how many Metaverse entrances there are and who they belong to (specific people you've encountered, collective unconsciousness). For the most parts, Shadows don't affect reality unless they are killed or have a change of heart. Strikers amps up the stakes by making it so that Shadows do, in, fact, affect their real selves. I'm not sure I've covered everything, but I'm happy enough to answer more questions (here or in DMs).
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Eiha/Kouha light/dark effects were in Persona 1 and made a return appearance in 5 along with Nuclear from 1 and 2. As confusing as the SMT spell names can be for first-time players, I think it was actually more confusing in the one game where they gave the spells English names in the English localization (the original PS1 version of Persona 1). In that game most of the spells had really similar names like Ray, Flash, Blast, and Nuke and it was hard to tell what element they were and which one was stronger than the other. There was a nuclear element but "Nuke" wasn't a nuclear spell, it was the name for the Megido almighty line. Made more confusing by the fact that enemy weaknesses weren't directly mentioned when analyzing, and they instead had vaguely worded Pokemon-style types written out instead IIRC.
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The Metaverse is Persona 5 nomenclature, but it can apply to 3 and 4 too without problems. The Dark Hour is the Metaverse encroaching into reality due to the mess made by the Kirijo corporation's experiments. Similar encroachments happen towards the end of 5, Strikers and a couple bad endings in 4. The TV world is Inaba's local section of the Metaverse, accessed through TVs because why not? Party had a smartphone app in 5 and Strikers, I see no significant difference. The different methods of acquiring Personas are probably influenced by whatever supernatural rear end in a top hat is responsible for the game's crisis, and I'd speculate that they are tailored to check that the group of teens with attitude that Igor is recruiting has the correct attitude to deal with said supernatural rear end in a top hat. In Strikers, the Jails are effectively based on Palaces, so similar awakening methods apply. As for the 5 style awakenings against 4 style, you misunderstood something. Fighting with the shadow is not what was verboten in 4, rejecting them was. In 5, awakenings are a painful moment of catharsis, where the awakener is forced to confront a lot of their contradictions head on. The shadow does not pull punches, but that's because this is the path is strife (as Johanna says first thing during Makoto's awakening). In the pivotal moment, the Phantom Thieves all decided to be true to themselves and stand tall against apparently insurmountable odds, come what may. Notice what is the climax of the awakening (not so coincidentally when Willpower starts playing): for all the Phantom Thief trappings, the masks and costumes and codenames and snappy team name, the awakening happens when they painfully rip that mask (and a lot of skin) off their face, to signal this resolve. Edit: unrelated, but they seriously couldn't have brought Sojiro to Mementoes for two minutes so he could understand Morgana? Dick move that, especially because he knows the cat is sentient/sapient (which one is the correct one in this context). Omobono fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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To add to what others are saying, Zenkichi was likely talking to his Persona; unlike in P4, each character's Persona awakening in 5 gives the Persona a bit of spoken dialogue (even Arsene). They then go silent for the rest of the game, IIRC. Shadows (or more accurately, Shadow Selves, because I think that's the term for the yellow-eyed Metaverse doppelgangers) are basically the same thing in P5 that they are in 4; they're the parts of you that you don't want to admit are there. However, because most of the Shadow Selves in P5/Strikers aren't party members (and are in fact villains), the Palace rulers/Monarchs never meet and accept them, and the Shadows seem to be dominant in their daily lives. That's in fact why Palace rulers and Monarchs have become so distorted; they've let a part of themselves people normally wall off become the dominant force in their personality.
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P5: Futaba has the closest equivalent to a P4 style awakening; the twist is that her Shadow is her repressed positivity. Either way, she gets her Persona by accepting herself, but there's no mask ripping for her.
BearDrivingTruck fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Really, Futaba's Shadow Self is the part of her that she's too broken psychologically to be capable of accepting; it isn't her positivity, it's just the part of her that knows the truth (that she isn't responsible for her mother's death) and the trauma and guilt she bears over her mother's "suicide" is the dominant force in her personality and won't let her accept the truth she knows is there. But ya might want to spoiler that one there champ; I specifically avoided mentioning character names and specific plot details because Twelve by Pies hasn't played P5 yet.
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Another thing about the Persona 5 portrayal of Personas is that they are masks this time, and I don't just mean that they literally take the form of the Phantom Thieves' masks when they're not summoned. In Persona 5, and by extension Strikers, characters' initial Personas are almost always one of two things: either the character weaponizing the image others have of them, or the character manifesting how they want to be seen. Joker is seen as a criminal, so his initial Persona weaponizes that and manifests as a great and accomplished thief. Ryuji wears the mask of a violent loose cannon, and Ann the mask of a seductress. It works even for Futaba, treated like some kind of weirdo alien hacker genius, so she gets her own flying saucer that represents forbidden knowledge. Morgana, on the other hand, has a Persona that represents how he wants to be seen: as a valiant, heroic swashbuckler. I like that a lot. Sometimes I feel like the modern Persona games play a little fast and loose with what a Persona is supposed to represent about its summoner--is it only one of many faces you wear, or is it the "truth" in your heart? It's never quite defined. Persona 5 has a clearer image of what a Persona is and plays with it pretty well. Harrow fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Makoto is a bike because vroom vroom Also in P5, every character has an evolved Persona for completing their Social Link, just like in P4 (and in Royal, they have an advanced form in January that combines their first two). Ryuji's is funny because Morgana calls him an ape as an epithet every now and then, and his second Persona is basically Sun Wukong.
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ApplesandOranges posted:Makoto is a bike because vroom vroom Not even just basically--Ryuji's second Persona is the Japanese version of Sun Wukong. The name, Seiten Taisei, is a Japanese translation of the title Sun Wukong gave himself when trying to win the respect of the heavens. Incidentally that's one of my favorite Personas in P5, both design-wise and fitting the character. Just a perfect Persona for Ryuji.
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Something I'd like more exploration of is the relationship between the persona users and the persona, if there even is one. In P5 they speak during the awakenings and the persona users call out to them when attacking - do they speak at any other times that we aren't seeing? Or if they're just extensions of the self, would it be the equivalent of talking to yourself? P5R spoilers: Maruki for instance seems to talk a lot to his, and we know it also talks back. When Maruki makes her go berserk, Cendrillon (I keep wondering why they didn't just call her Cinderella) talks about not wanting to go back to a life in ashes. Is that just Sumire's thoughts being translated through the Cendrillon story, or something more than that?
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Badger of Basra posted:Something I'd like more exploration of is the relationship between the persona users and the persona, if there even is one. In P5 they speak during the awakenings and the persona users call out to them when attacking - do they speak at any other times that we aren't seeing? Or if they're just extensions of the self, would it be the equivalent of talking to yourself? P5R spoilers: Maruki for instance seems to talk a lot to his, and we know it also talks back. When Maruki makes her go berserk, Cendrillon (I keep wondering why they didn't just call her Cinderella) talks about not wanting to go back to a life in ashes. Is that just Sumire's thoughts being translated through the Cendrillon story, or something more than that? I brought it up earlier in the thread and the loc team goon seemed to confirm it, but the voice that speaks to the party in the Okinawa Jail that uses Sophia's voice is apparently Pandora starting to manifest. Based on what she says she seems to do what most of the eventual Personas do as Shadows and take the role of hardass egging their host(?) on to reach the point where they actually manifest the mask and rip it off. Valjean also speaks to Zenkichi moments before he awakens proper, and he does the whole taunting-with-a-purpose shtick as the rest of the Personas do in the P5 arc.
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Come on. You're just a baby aren't ya, too afraid to manifest powers and shoot guns all over he place? What a baaaaabyyyyyyy you are. What a wimp, won't even leap thirty feet into the air and spin around a pole like a real cool dude
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BearDrivingTruck posted:I brought it up earlier in the thread and the loc team goon seemed to confirm it, but the voice that speaks to the party in the Okinawa Jail that uses Sophia's voice is apparently Pandora starting to manifest. Based on what she says she seems to do what most of the eventual Personas do as Shadows and take the role of hardass egging their host(?) on to reach the point where they actually manifest the mask and rip it off. Valjean also speaks to Zenkichi moments before he awakens proper, and he does the whole taunting-with-a-purpose shtick as the rest of the Personas do in the P5 arc. I like this theory, but if that was Pandora, then how could the others hear her at the end? I assumed it was EMMA, because she had a strong connection to that area and you don't realize it's self aware at the time. BearDrivingTruck posted:On the other hand (post final boss) Ichinose turns herself in for her part in creating EMMA and is immediately let go because they think she's making things up I actually chuckled at this in the game. Speaking of funny, (post Okinawa jail, hot springs scene) I like the implication that Makoto was so angry she went so far as to punch around Morgana in cat form. The mental image is great. And I wish they would have referenced that Makoto thrashed four teammates right before the cops show up. FireWorksWell fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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The hot springs scene wouldn't have happened the way it did if my dumb friends hadn't ignored my suggestion to just say "Hey we're on the other side of this rock, sorry, we came in right before the time change and we're leaving now."
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I'm trying to grind the sixth Junk Collection request for cash, and I'm having trouble because the Osaka Jail has two different types of junk. Does the Vague File List drop in the earlier areas only or can it drop in any part of the Jail?
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I'm pretty sure it's in the earlier areas because I have a vague memory of getting it off the first encounter. Twelve by Pies posted:The hot springs scene wouldn't have happened the way it did if my dumb friends hadn't ignored my suggestion to just say "Hey we're on the other side of this rock, sorry, we came in right before the time change and we're leaving now." Yeah, all you had to do was yell out, "Wait! We need to get out first!" And of course it's the Smart One who escalates things.
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Starting Merciless NG+ and it's not that hard for now, I assume it'll get worse after the first Jail. But man, does it teach you to DODGE really quickly. E: and anything with a name needs a debilitate into all three ma-kajas. Are there any good high level wind or nuke personas? I should drop Mara and Seth because of redundant skill coverage but I think the highest wind/nuke were Koppa Tengu and Trumpeter at level (and stats) $way_too_low. Omobono fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Omobono posted:Starting Merciless NG+ and it's not that hard for now, I assume it'll get worse after the first Jail. Yeah, when people mentioned dying over and over I was nervous, but it's not that bad yet. I don't know why but Seth always has Freidyne for me in p5 games so he's been my Nuke persona.
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Omobono posted:Starting Merciless NG+ and it's not that hard for now, I assume it'll get worse after the first Jail. I believe you'll need to fuse up; Norn learns Panta Rhei and Mot learns Cosmic Flare. I just shoved Magarudyne onto Alice and called it a day. Most of the high level Personas are actually physical leaning other than Alice. Merciless isn't too bad but yeah, you'll get random 'oh hey, I got tagged with a physical and I'm dead' moments. The early fight with a Bicorn is super rough because it's Game Over if Joker dies since the game doesn't let you switch between party members yet. Get used to bringing a physical character or two because boss fights where you forget to bring a weakness can really drain you of resources otherwise. There was this one fight with an Eligor in the second Jail that I didn't bring Ryuji to and I didn't have anyone with Ziodyne, so that fight took forever. ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Welp, only one way to fuse that stupid teddy bear and it involves a level loving 40 Pixie. Time to dump half a million PP into her.
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Workaround suggestion: Bugs appears in the 7th Jail. I don't know if you need to have fused it to get it drop its mask, but it saves you from dumping PP into Pixie.
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Twelve by Pies posted:The game is nice enough to give you a description when you're in the Persona menu so you can immediately tell what the buff/debuff stuff does. It's just an issue when you're using the food items because it just says "Applies Matarukaja effect" and it's like great, okay, which one is that again? I agree that it's a bit of a bummer the only solution was "hope you can remember these or look them up", and I didn't handle this file, but I suspect it was due to character limitations (describing the item and including the accurate spell info would potentially not fit for some items/spells, which means the descriptions would be inconsistent if we only spelled out some of them.) The fields we have to fit text in are sometimes a lot smaller than one would expect or hope for lol FireWorksWell posted:I like this theory, but if that was Pandora, then how could the others hear her at the end? I assumed it was EMMA, because she had a strong connection to that area and you don't realize it's self aware at the time. Sorry BDT, I should have been clearer--EMMA was indeed using Sophia's voice to speak to Sophia, rather than Pandora speaking to Sophia. Otherwise, I would've probably been told by the translator to not get so mean... and we may not have even gotten the precious f-word!
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Aw man, I thought I was so smart
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ApplesandOranges posted:Workaround suggestion: Bugs appears in the 7th Jail. I don't know if you need to have fused it to get it drop its mask, but it saves you from dumping PP into Pixie. Regarding that, you don't need to have fused an enemy to pick up their mask. That's how I got Bugs at first because fusing and leveling up a Pixie would have taken forever before then. Much faster on Merciless with the scaling, but by then it's pretty much a solved problem anyway.
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Haru dabbing is too powerful![]()
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# ? Feb 19, 2025 05:27 |
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BearDrivingTruck posted:Aw man, I thought I was so smart If it's any comfort, I did like your theory! It ties in with the other transformation in this game.
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