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GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Thuryl posted:

No AC follower, no Bug.

Yeah, this. The harder the conditions to win, the better exp. Except solo Gnosia is easy peasy with enough commands if you kill roles early enough and have high stats. You just have to keep people who trust you alive and dogpile on doubts.

6 Gnosia with AC Follower and Bug, on the other hand, is hard as balls cause if you freeze a human you autolose to Bug or Gnosia and you have no roles to find them.

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HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
Since winning as AC Follower is so "hard", it gives great exp.

So if you want to farm EXP real quick, do:

- Start as AC Follower
- 5 players
- 1 Gnosia
- Engineer in play
- Doctor in play

This means there's exactly one normal crew member, 1 engi, 1 doctor, 1 gnosia, and you. Call out the other roles on day 1, claim engineer and get the other (real) one voted out. If you can't do that, try to figure out the obvious 1 crew member and get them voted out. Claim the Gnosia to be human with your fake engineer powers, and day 2 should be a cake walk.

Even if you gently caress up the first day, it's like 30 seconds and you still get some exp. If you win on day 2, it's exp payday for a hard-earned "tough" AC follower round that takes like 2 minutes.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.


I was missing one of SQ's last infos and it's the one near the bottom that was labels a Gnosia. I had been spoiled about Gnosia SQ putting you in a collar if you both survive until the end but hadn't seen it myself yet so i figured that was it. But my Gnosia round justnow i accepted one of her requests to team up (she was doing it an awful lot) and...wow i didn't expect to have to try and keep only the 2 of us alive and it was surprisingly hard as i had Comet and Remnan as teammates, but it worked out and now i'm a bit sad :(


At least that explains why she was trying to partner up with me so much, i wonder how much sooner i could have gotten that one.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.

The Shame Boy posted:

I was missing one of SQ's last infos and it's the one near the bottom that was labels a Gnosia. I had been spoiled about Gnosia SQ putting you in a collar if you both survive until the end but hadn't seen it myself yet so i figured that was it. But my Gnosia round justnow i accepted one of her requests to team up (she was doing it an awful lot) and...wow i didn't expect to have to try and keep only the 2 of us alive and it was surprisingly hard as i had Comet and Remnan as teammates, but it worked out and now i'm a bit sad :(


At least that explains why she was trying to partner up with me so much, i wonder how much sooner i could have gotten that one.

You can still get the data file if you survive with SQ after making a deal with her even if there are other survivors, but you get a slightly shorter version of the scene.

It's one of the harder scenes to get since you have to be Gnosia, SQ has to be crew, and she has to catch you in a lie, and she kinda sucks at catching lies.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
There's kind of a catch to the data hints (human / gnosia), since they mean that YOU need to be that role to be able to unlock that note, not (as i assumed at the start) that the character needs to be on that side.

minya
Sep 7, 2004

SUN RA WAS HERE IN HIS ELEMENT
he invited me back for a ride
I am up to loop 30 or so, and I think I've lost the past 10 games in a row. I am bad at this game.

I've been playing with 15 crew and 3 gnosia and all roles turned on. All of my guesses as to who is Gnosia and who is not turn out to be wrong, probably 80% of the time.

I think, perhaps, my main problem is that I'm relying too much on trying to suss out true Engineers/Doctors and ignoring other tells/strategies.

Like, only within the past couple of loops have I been trying to think, OK, if I were gnosia, who would I be supporting/attacking? Like trying to figure out who they would doubt/support to turn the tide in their favor (even though they can lie about these things). It seems like it might be helping a little bit, but I'm not sure.

I'm also spreading out my level up stats fairly evenly. I think all of my stats are 10+ and I have Charisma at 15. Should I be focusing on one stat instead of spreading them around?

Belgian Waffle
Jul 31, 2006
This game has been really fun but I am losing my mind over seeing something like a triple-claim for a role and the group isn't icing everyone out of policy.

Similarly, I've had one game where, at that point, the mostly human group of survivors votes off one of the guards and I'm wondering why it's even an option.

Generally, everyone behaves about as realistically as you can expect (and I'm surprised by how consistent most of the characters behave) but sometimes I am just completely baffled with how the AI is voting.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

minya posted:

I am up to loop 30 or so, and I think I've lost the past 10 games in a row. I am bad at this game.

I've been playing with 15 crew and 3 gnosia and all roles turned on. All of my guesses as to who is Gnosia and who is not turn out to be wrong, probably 80% of the time.

I think, perhaps, my main problem is that I'm relying too much on trying to suss out true Engineers/Doctors and ignoring other tells/strategies.

Like, only within the past couple of loops have I been trying to think, OK, if I were gnosia, who would I be supporting/attacking? Like trying to figure out who they would doubt/support to turn the tide in their favor (even though they can lie about these things). It seems like it might be helping a little bit, but I'm not sure.

I'm also spreading out my level up stats fairly evenly. I think all of my stats are 10+ and I have Charisma at 15. Should I be focusing on one stat instead of spreading them around?

Personally I'd try to go for stats that give you access to new commands (Step Foward and Small Talk are two big ones I'd go for), but it depends on what goes wrong: if you're getting voted out or killed at night a lot you should go for Charm and Stealth, since you get more EXP and chances of seeing new events by surviving until the end.

For strategies, keep in mind both a character's personality and stats influence how they act: Shigemichi tends to defend fellow Gnosia, Kukrushka votes based on how much she hates someone, Comet tends to Doubt liars but she also doubts a lot randomly. The worst part is when characters like Yuriko or SQ or Kukrushka are Gnosia since they're really hard to sus out because their high defensive stats.

Also read the How to Play section, it gives a lot of tips and info about how Likeability and Hate work.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Also read the How to Play section, it gives a lot of tips and info about how Likeability and Hate work.
It's really useful documentation. Helped reinforce to me that you don't necessarily want to be too stand-offish, either, because they'll get suspicious if you haven't spoken up in ages just like they get annoyed if you speak up too often.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Hogama posted:

It's really useful documentation. Helped reinforce to me that you don't necessarily want to be too stand-offish, either, because they'll get suspicious if you haven't spoken up in ages just like they get annoyed if you speak up too often.

I'm pretty sure it's related to your stats though: after maxing them out I can constantly act in conversation and it may take days before someone uses shut up.

Guessing it's related to the Hate values so high Stealth should help with that, but I also think the game might count wrong guessings as being purposely lying? Like, if you start doubting humans people with high Intuition like COmet get over your rear end, so I wouldn't be surprised it works that way.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Sometimes I really wish the summary at the end of the game would let you see more specifically what triggered Definite Human for people.

In my most recent game, both Chipie and Shigemichi claimed engineer(with Chipie being Gnosia & Shige being the real one). Partway through everyone started treating Chipie's reports as 100% accurate for Definite Human purposes, which confused me to no end(there was also one point where Stella realized I was definitely human, based on no apparent train of logic or evidence except Shige saying I was while Chipie was still around). We did eventually win but I have no idea what triggered the Definite Human actions. And those were across multiple days, not a wave of 'oh ok everyone is human except for the one person who has to be gnosia'.

minya
Sep 7, 2004

SUN RA WAS HERE IN HIS ELEMENT
he invited me back for a ride

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Personally I'd try to go for stats that give you access to new commands (Step Foward and Small Talk are two big ones I'd go for), but it depends on what goes wrong: if you're getting voted out or killed at night a lot you should go for Charm and Stealth, since you get more EXP and chances of seeing new events by surviving until the end.

For strategies, keep in mind both a character's personality and stats influence how they act: Shigemichi tends to defend fellow Gnosia, Kukrushka votes based on how much she hates someone, Comet tends to Doubt liars but she also doubts a lot randomly. The worst part is when characters like Yuriko or SQ or Kukrushka are Gnosia since they're really hard to sus out because their high defensive stats.

Also read the How to Play section, it gives a lot of tips and info about how Likeability and Hate work.

Thanks, this is helpful. I do actually have both of these commands, but I hardly ever use them. Step Forward, in particular, seems like something the AI characters will always use. Is there any advantage to doing it myself? And I'm unsure when to use Small Talk... that is useful when I suspect I am going to be targeted by Gnosia, right?

I've dug into the How To Play section, it's very helpful. I think there's just so many systems to manage / things to consider that I'm losing sight of how it all fits together and probably making lots of mistakes or bad guesses along the way.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

minya posted:

Thanks, this is helpful. I do actually have both of these commands, but I hardly ever use them. Step Forward, in particular, seems like something the AI characters will always use. Is there any advantage to doing it myself? And I'm unsure when to use Small Talk... that is useful when I suspect I am going to be targeted by Gnosia, right?

I've dug into the How To Play section, it's very helpful. I think there's just so many systems to manage / things to consider that I'm losing sight of how it all fits together and probably making lots of mistakes or bad guesses along the way.

It's ok, it took me a bit to learn how to play the game to my advantage, because I was dumb and never read How to Play thinking it was a dumb manual :v:

Step Forward is useful cause if there are enough Evils they will fake claim (ensuring you know who can be sussed as Gnosia), and sometimes the AI won't call for roles until D2 when it's better to know it earlier. Small talk basically makes it so the Gnosia won't attack you even if you have lowish Stealth, it's super powerful.


Haifisch posted:

Sometimes I really wish the summary at the end of the game would let you see more specifically what triggered Definite Human for people.

Basically you can use them when there's logic that makes them human/Gnosia 100%. So for example:

-A single Engineer/Doctor steps. They are human because AI always steps if they have the role (unless you don't step, in which case it bugs out and an evil is treated as Human). Any person a confirmed Engineer calls out is confirmed human/Gnosia as well. This can only happen if there are no death/cold sleeps before the calling (because the real Engineer could be dead/cold sleep).

-A fake claim makes an obvious lie, such as a doctor saying everyone voted out was Gnosia/Human because then the game should have ended right there. Or an Engineer who calls out someone as Gnosia but they die at night. Or any Engineer/Doctor claims when one of them dies at night (which is why you should NEVER kill those if claiming a role as evil and Raqio/Setsu/Yuriko are alive).

-By elimination. Let's say you are crew and the only people left are 2 Doctor claims and 2 Engineer claims, and the game has no bugs/AC Follower. You are definitively human because there are 2 evils and 2 crew in the rest and if you were Gnosia the game would end.

-Finally, what happened to you: if all D1 Engineers say someone is human, they are human because 1 of them is real and none of the contradict each other. The same if all say someone is Gnosia.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer

Haifisch posted:

Sometimes I really wish the summary at the end of the game would let you see more specifically what triggered Definite Human for people.

In my most recent game, both Chipie and Shigemichi claimed engineer(with Chipie being Gnosia & Shige being the real one). Partway through everyone started treating Chipie's reports as 100% accurate for Definite Human purposes, which confused me to no end(there was also one point where Stella realized I was definitely human, based on no apparent train of logic or evidence except Shige saying I was while Chipie was still around). We did eventually win but I have no idea what triggered the Definite Human actions. And those were across multiple days, not a wave of 'oh ok everyone is human except for the one person who has to be gnosia'.

It's usually a combination of which engineer/doctor reported what, combined with who died via Gnosia and who must have thus definitely lied. By process of elimination (figuratively or literally), you can end up knowing someone must be human by cross-referncing reports.

It's hrd to tell for your specific case without knowing who reported what and who died when.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
Also, Definite Human gets to be very fun if Setsu happens to airlock Sha-Ming again on Day 1 before the first discussion. All bets on veracity regarding doctors or engineers are off then :v:

404notfound
Mar 5, 2006

stop staring at me

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

It's ok, it took me a bit to learn how to play the game to my advantage, because I was dumb and never read How to Play thinking it was a dumb manual :v:

Step Forward is useful cause if there are enough Evils they will fake claim (ensuring you know who can be sussed as Gnosia), and sometimes the AI won't call for roles until D2 when it's better to know it earlier. Small talk basically makes it so the Gnosia won't attack you even if you have lowish Stealth, it's super powerful.


Basically you can use them when there's logic that makes them human/Gnosia 100%. So for example:

-A single Engineer/Doctor steps. They are human because AI always steps if they have the role (unless you don't step, in which case it bugs out and an evil is treated as Human). Any person a confirmed Engineer calls out is confirmed human/Gnosia as well. This can only happen if there are no death/cold sleeps before the calling (because the real Engineer could be dead/cold sleep).

-A fake claim makes an obvious lie, such as a doctor saying everyone voted out was Gnosia/Human because then the game should have ended right there. Or an Engineer who calls out someone as Gnosia but they die at night. Or any Engineer/Doctor claims when one of them dies at night (which is why you should NEVER kill those if claiming a role as evil and Raqio/Setsu/Yuriko are alive).

-By elimination. Let's say you are crew and the only people left are 2 Doctor claims and 2 Engineer claims, and the game has no bugs/AC Follower. You are definitively human because there are 2 evils and 2 crew in the rest and if you were Gnosia the game would end.

-Finally, what happened to you: if all D1 Engineers say someone is human, they are human because 1 of them is real and none of the contradict each other. The same if all say someone is Gnosia.

Also, each role will only have one gnosia claimant at most. So if a role has three people, you know one of them is bug or follower. If it has four, then you've got both bug and follower.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if you could end up with real/bug/follower if there are still gnosia players, although theoretically that should be possible. I don't think I've ever seen it though.

In any case, using it right off the bat is pretty much always a smart idea, since the value of knowing the engineer seems to outweigh the risk that they're making themselves a target. But more importantly it gives you an extra day of gathering information. If you don't have anything else to go off of, then the first day is pretty much just everyone pointing fingers at each other, and it's only useful retrospectively when you're trying to match what people said with their later actions.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

I'm pretty sure it's related to your stats though: after maxing them out I can constantly act in conversation and it may take days before someone uses shut up.
Oh, right, I am talking more from an early-ish game perspective.

As far as step forward goes, one time before I had it as an available action I was mildly confused about some doctor reports in an early game until I remembered it was day 2 they stepped forward and of course the real doctor was the first person put on ice :v:

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

404notfound posted:

Also, each role will only have one gnosia claimant at most. So if a role has three people, you know one of them is bug or follower. If it has four, then you've got both bug and follower.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if you could end up with real/bug/follower if there are still gnosia players, although theoretically that should be possible. I don't think I've ever seen it though.

In any case, using it right off the bat is pretty much always a smart idea, since the value of knowing the engineer seems to outweigh the risk that they're making themselves a target. But more importantly it gives you an extra day of gathering information. If you don't have anything else to go off of, then the first day is pretty much just everyone pointing fingers at each other, and it's only useful retrospectively when you're trying to match what people said with their later actions.

I think you can't because the less evils there are the less likely they are to claim. So for example with 1 Gnosia/Ac/Bug, you'd probably get 2 Doctor and 2 Engineer claims and the Gnosia would probably not be one of them: claiming as evil is risky cause you may end up declared Definitive Enemy by elimination/lying.

Say I'm Human is also great for D1 once you have high Int, only evils can lie so anyone who lies can be voted off surely (also anyone who stops it will get voted off unless you are a god with 50 Charm/Stealth).

ymgve
Jan 2, 2004


:dukedog:
Offensive Clock

StarkRavingMad posted:

Finally beat it on Loop 176. I finally gave in and looked up how to trigger the last event I needed, and Iím glad I did because it seems like I needed to use the cover command on someone (which I almost never do anymore), so it would have taken me ages to luck into that.

Really enjoyed both the ending and the True Ending. What a cool, weird little game. I can definitely still see myself firing it back up for a loop or two every now and again.

Wait, there are two endings?

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
The first day can be useful for some people. LIke if Renman is talking a lot chances are he is gnosia. And if Raqio survives the first round, clearly the game is broken.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Waltzing Along posted:

The first day can be useful for some people. LIke if Renman is talking a lot chances are he is gnosia. And if Raqio survives the first round, clearly the game is broken.

Look, Raqio took 50 loops to give me my final command, I'm not letting him die until that!

(Like seriously, he has by far the worst command to get).

404notfound
Mar 5, 2006

stop staring at me

ymgve posted:

Wait, there are two endings?

Hint on how to get the other one: what would you do if you wanted to see Setsu again?

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Look, Raqio took 50 loops to give me my final command, I'm not letting him die until that!

(Like seriously, he has by far the worst command to get).

I can't stand them. I tried to like them but it's hard when they try to be unlikable. When I was doing the "keep me alive" quest I had a few occasions where I got it down to 3. Me, raqio and a 3rd. And idiot Raqio would vote against me and get me knocked off in the final round. Even when I am using regret and doubt and whatever and having things look like we will oust the final person. But nope. Raqio is a POS. So I vote them off every first round if they show up now no matter what.

Initially I didn't like Yuriko and Sha-ming. But Raqio has taken it to a whole other level. All due to the frustration with trying to keep them alive.

Fight! For your kite!
Jul 29, 2008
If you don't mind your loop counter going up, a turbo controller is an easy way to level up.

StarkRavingMad
Sep 27, 2001


Yams Fan

404notfound posted:

Hint on how to get the other one: what would you do if you wanted to see Setsu again?

I'll lay it out (without spoiling the story) if people can't figure it out from that hint, since I never would have found this on my own if I hadn't stumbled across a spoiler, and it's worth seeing.

If you don't want to see the spoiler and want to figure it out for yourself, I'll say that you don't have to worry that you are losing out on the true ending by playing any particular way, you can't screw it up such that you are locked out of the second ending, so feel free to experiment.

Anyway, if you can't figure it out: After you get the first ending and the credits roll, you'll come back to the main screen with a different graphic behind the title. Start a new game in a new slot. I'm not sure if you need to name your character the same or have the same details, but I did. It should be pretty obvious what to do from that point.

StarkRavingMad fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Mar 24, 2021

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
^
You don't need to use the same details.
Setsu will recognize you regardless and address you as your previous incarnation

Crass Casualty
May 9, 2004
The artist formerly known as Iron Stalin
I appreciated the ending where Stella was Gnosia and Jonas acted like an indifferent prick about it and in response LeVi kills him in the middle of the night.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Crass Casualty posted:

I appreciated the ending where Stella was Gnosia and Jonas acted like an indifferent prick about it and in response LeVi kills him in the middle of the night.

Funny you mention that, despite thinking I found everything in the game I found out just now there's an opposite ending where Jonas is Gnosia and Stella is Crew where she decides you are her new master and she's totally DTF drat girl is thirsty.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

HenryEx posted:

It's usually a combination of which engineer/doctor reported what, combined with who died via Gnosia and who must have thus definitely lied. By process of elimination (figuratively or literally), you can end up knowing someone must be human by cross-referncing reports.

It's hrd to tell for your specific case without knowing who reported what and who died when.
I actually took screenshots of the endgame log because I was that confused. (although in retrospect I should have taken them of the entire log and not just the parts that seemed related to what confused me)

-Chipie and Shige never investigated the same person at all.
-Shige lived all the way to the end, so there was no 'Chipie was obviously lying about being engineer because Shige got murdered'.
-Chipie only got Definite Enemy after literally everyone else was either dead/on ice or declared Definite Human.
-Chipie never claimed anyone was gnosia, and never pretended to investigate the other gnosia.
-Stella was the only doctor claimant & claimed on day 1(and I immediately Definite Humaned her, because that's obvious even to me :v:). She never investigated anyone that Chipie pretended to. She did check Raqio and corraborated Shige's real investigation that said they were Gnosia.
-There was no AC follower, Bug, or Guard Duty in the game.
-Day 1 we froze SQ(who turned out to be Gnosia but didn't claim any roles or get spotted lying by anyone).
-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.
-Day 3 had Chipie say Kukrushka was human and Shige say I was human. This was immediately followed up by Otome saying Kukrushka was definitely human. Later that day Otome also said Setsu was definitely human, despite Setsu not having been investigated by anyone or claiming any roles.

I'm sure there's some chain of logic that could lead to the various Definite Human results but I figured that sitting there 10 minutes was the max I was willing to spend on that.

ymgve
Jan 2, 2004


:dukedog:
Offensive Clock
It could be that the number of Gnosia donít match up. For example, If the engineer has identified two Gnosia and the doctor has identified two different characters as Gnosia and there are only three according to the rules, one of them is lying. Or if the game is still going but there should have been a human/Gnosia victory at that point.

ymgve fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Mar 25, 2021

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
I figured that was what happened on the last day, it was just the previous days that confused me since it appeared that characters were just taking Chipie's fake examinations as fact(which were incidentally correct, but still).

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
Setsu: we need to survive together till the end
Me: yes, we're a team!

Setsu then doesn't follow my lead when I say someone is gnosia 3 rounds in a row. Twice it survives by 1 votes. Then it eats me.

I've tried both of us to whatever that scene is 4 times now. Last time she got ate 1st round.

I hate how stupid the AI is sometimes.

Princey
Mar 22, 2013

Haifisch posted:

-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.

This took me a bit to figure out, but: there are three Gnosia. One is in cold sleep (confirmed by definite doctor), one is one of the engineer claims, and there's one other floating around. In that case, if Sha-ming is Gnosia, then BOTH engineers would be lying, because then Raqio couldn't be Gnosia, because there's only one left to find. Therefore, Sha-ming must be human.

Edit: And on the last day, the only Gnosia left has to be one of the engineer claims, so everyone else is definitely human.

Princey fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Mar 25, 2021

Nick Buntline
Dec 20, 2007
Doesn't know the impossible.

Haifisch posted:

I actually took screenshots of the endgame log because I was that confused. (although in retrospect I should have taken them of the entire log and not just the parts that seemed related to what confused me)

-Chipie and Shige never investigated the same person at all.
-Shige lived all the way to the end, so there was no 'Chipie was obviously lying about being engineer because Shige got murdered'.
-Chipie only got Definite Enemy after literally everyone else was either dead/on ice or declared Definite Human.
-Chipie never claimed anyone was gnosia, and never pretended to investigate the other gnosia.
-Stella was the only doctor claimant & claimed on day 1(and I immediately Definite Humaned her, because that's obvious even to me :v:). She never investigated anyone that Chipie pretended to. She did check Raqio and corraborated Shige's real investigation that said they were Gnosia.
-There was no AC follower, Bug, or Guard Duty in the game.
-Day 1 we froze SQ(who turned out to be Gnosia but didn't claim any roles or get spotted lying by anyone).
-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.
-Day 3 had Chipie say Kukrushka was human and Shige say I was human. This was immediately followed up by Otome saying Kukrushka was definitely human. Later that day Otome also said Setsu was definitely human, despite Setsu not having been investigated by anyone or claiming any roles.

I'm sure there's some chain of logic that could lead to the various Definite Human results but I figured that sitting there 10 minutes was the max I was willing to spend on that.

Assuming your game had three Gnosia, at day 2 Stella would have known:

Gnosia 1: SQ, which Stella, as the confirmed human doctor, would have known based on her own investigation;
Gnosia 2: One of Chipie or Shige, depending on who was lying;

At that point, if Chipie is Human, then Sha-ming is Human. If Shige if Human, then Raqio is Gnosia, all 3 Gnosia have been identified, and Shige is therefore implicitly calling the rest of the crew Human. This means both Engineers called Sha-ming Human, making them Definite. Since Raqio then got frozen (and confirmed as Gnosia by the confirmed Doctor), that just leaves whichever of Chipie or Shige as the last Gnosia and everyone else can be confirmed as Definite. Technically Chipie could have been called Definite Enemy before everyone else got confirmed Human, but the AI tends to want to follow the logic directly in my experience.

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
I must be near the end. I am not "full" yet. I only have 2 crew reports to fill. A Remnan and a Gina. They just aren't popping. My stats are high enough that I win every round but it's just more and more XP with no progress. I think it's like 15 games in a row with nothing. Sigh.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.

Waltzing Along posted:

I must be near the end. I am not "full" yet. I only have 2 crew reports to fill. A Remnan and a Gina. They just aren't popping. My stats are high enough that I win every round but it's just more and more XP with no progress. I think it's like 15 games in a row with nothing. Sigh.

There's a guide here if you need it: https://www.halfstaratelier.com/gnos

Minimal story spoilers, but obviously there are spoilers for event triggers.

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
I found some guide and got the last two. All done now. That was a diversion for sure. And yeah, I went back to see spoilers and the Remnan one is pretty messed up. I wonder how many people got that without a guide as it is 100% non-intuitive.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS

Nick Buntline posted:

Technically Chipie could have been called Definite Enemy before everyone else got confirmed Human, but the AI tends to want to follow the logic directly in my experience.
So far the story is still consistent with Shige being gnosia. Don't think Chipie could be confirmed as guilty unless he claimed a Human result on Shigemichi.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Haifisch posted:

I actually took screenshots of the endgame log because I was that confused. (although in retrospect I should have taken them of the entire log and not just the parts that seemed related to what confused me)

-Chipie and Shige never investigated the same person at all.
-Shige lived all the way to the end, so there was no 'Chipie was obviously lying about being engineer because Shige got murdered'.
-Chipie only got Definite Enemy after literally everyone else was either dead/on ice or declared Definite Human.
-Chipie never claimed anyone was gnosia, and never pretended to investigate the other gnosia.
-Stella was the only doctor claimant & claimed on day 1(and I immediately Definite Humaned her, because that's obvious even to me :v:). She never investigated anyone that Chipie pretended to. She did check Raqio and corraborated Shige's real investigation that said they were Gnosia.
-There was no AC follower, Bug, or Guard Duty in the game.
-Day 1 we froze SQ(who turned out to be Gnosia but didn't claim any roles or get spotted lying by anyone).
-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.
-Day 3 had Chipie say Kukrushka was human and Shige say I was human. This was immediately followed up by Otome saying Kukrushka was definitely human. Later that day Otome also said Setsu was definitely human, despite Setsu not having been investigated by anyone or claiming any roles.

I'm sure there's some chain of logic that could lead to the various Definite Human results but I figured that sitting there 10 minutes was the max I was willing to spend on that.

So you've got three Gnosia, no AC Follower, no Bug, so you've got three liers. Stella confirmed two of them in SQ and Raqio.

So, the first question is, why was Chipie saying Sha-ming was human informing that he was human? It wasn't, really. It was Shigemichi saying Raqio was Gnosia. There are two options: Shigemichi is lying, or Chipie is lying. In a set of Day 1 claims, one of them is definitely human.

If Chipie is telling the truth, then Sha-ming is human, great! What if Shigemichi is telling the truth? Then Chipie is lying, making him Gnosia...but also, then Shigemichi is telling the truth, making Raqio Gnosia. There's no other options: either Chipie is Gnosia and thus Shigemichi must be correct and Raqio is Gnosia (making everyone else human) or Chipie is human and Shigemichi must be Gnosia (making anyone Chipie declares human definitely so).

Day 3 comes, and Stella confirms Raqio as Gnosia. So we've got two Gnosia on ice, meaning the third one is one of the two declared Engineers. From here, everyone else can be declared as Definite Human but Shigemichi and Chipie, because there's only one Gnosia left. You eventually ice Chipie and get confused as to how this happened, because everyone just suddenly became human for no reason?

Well, here's what happened.

You know after the fact that Chipie is Gnosia, and so you get confused because why was Chipie's fake report exonerating of Sha-ming? But you're working backward from the conclusion there: the answer isn't that Chipie's fake report revealed anything, it's that Chipie's possibly real report plus Shigemichi's possibly real report together reveal the truth: either one Engineer is right about someone being human, or the other one is right about someone being Gnosia and so the only remaining Gnosia is the other Engineer.

As with lots of logic puzzles, the solution can be obtained by starting by assuming a premise is true and seeing if you arrive at a contradiction.

tl;dr: Chipie was Gnosia but that doesn't change the fact that anyone he cleared had to be considered human once Shigemichi's report of Raqio was taken into account, because either his reports are true or Shigemichi's are true, and any place the two reports both point to someone being human mean that person must be human because one report must be true, not both and not zero.

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minya
Sep 7, 2004

SUN RA WAS HERE IN HIS ELEMENT
he invited me back for a ride
I'm still so bad at this game.

I'm up to loop 35 or so and I keep losing over and over. In particular, one loop last night I got spectacularly crushed. I forget the exact specifics, but I had zeroed in on Setsu as a human and an ally that I could rely on. I'm pretty sure I had the Gnosia figured out. We keep voting people off until we reach 4 crew left, but I still haven't won. I realize I've made a big mistake somewhere along the line.

The next night, I get killed. Turns out Setsu was Gnosia the whole time. I was completely, utterly hoodwinked.

So yeah, that was a devastating loss, but man, the AI in this game is so good. Maybe sooner or later I'll manage a win.

Also I can't believe how good the music in this game is. It's been stuck in my head for days. The one song/theme that plays during night-time reminds me of Boris, kind of.

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