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GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019
Yeah, pretty sure it makes it so behind the scenes you get characters as certain roles so you can get the events, but you may miss the particular trigger, like a character dying/getting cold sleep when you need them for an event.

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Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
I'm very angry about accidentally posting a duplicate thread because for whatever reason this one wasn't listed in the Index, so instead I'm going to share with you the story of the time I, the world's tired-est Guardian Angel, and Raqio, the worst logician in the Universe, cold slept almost the entire crew:



Raqio managed to declare themself Definitely Human and Jonas as Definitely Enemy, and then immediately offered to collaborate. Chipie swiftly followed so I figured, right, well, this one's in the bag. Sha-Ming (of course it was Sha-Ming) just kept trying to assassinate Raqio, and I protected them three times in a row as they repeatedly failed to spot the last Gnosia (Kukruska died on day 7). It was literally down to me, them, and Sha-Ming on the last day.

Fedule fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Apr 5, 2021

sirtommygunn
Mar 7, 2013



Just a heads up that Raqio is nonbinary and uses they/them.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Hah, I remembered there was a non-binary player but for some reason I thought it was Setsu. Guess it doesn't help that most of the dialogue by volume is written to meticulously avoid having to use pronouns.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.

Fedule posted:

Hah, I remembered there was a non-binary player but for some reason I thought it was Setsu. Guess it doesn't help that most of the dialogue by volume is written to meticulously avoid having to use pronouns.

You weren't wrong about that; Setsu and Raqio are both non-binary.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.


With as much as you spammed doubt at the end there i'm surprised the others didn't tell you to shut up and space you right there :v:

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Well, I'm sure if there were anyone else left besides my stalwart misguided logician companion who had my back if absolutely nothing else it might've gone that way. What was Sha-Ming gonna do, convince himself to hate me more?

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
I'm really surprised Sha-Ming didn't just ice you during the night eventually.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

HenryEx posted:

I'm really surprised Sha-Ming didn't just ice you during the night eventually.

If you use Small Talk and have high Stealth Gnosia will generally ignore you unless you are Definitive Human or they don't have many options left, as in there are only 2-3 targets possible and you have been leading discussions.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Yeah, Raqio was the one making big splashy arguments, I was just backing them up sometimes. I guess the Gnosia AI doesn't reason about the Guardian Angel, it just targets whoever it most hates.

I had another unbelievably stupid outcome today when, as Gnosia, we killed Yuriko on Day 1 and Comet helpfully reported her as human. We then spent four days trying to identify which of the remaining Engineers was the real one and which was the Bug, as I had become sure Comet was the Follower. I couldn't figure it out and just took a gamble on framing one of them. As you have probably guessed from reading, Comet was the real Engineer and Yuriko was the Bug.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



My favorite runs are when I misidentify the Bug as the AC follower as Gnosia and snatch a loss out of the jaws of victory.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
lmao got absolutely chumped by 3 gnosia in a crew of 9 because Setsu decided to pre-shank Sha-Ming, and he was the engineer, so it was a wipe on day one when we froze the wrong guy.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Fedule posted:

lmao got absolutely chumped by 3 gnosia in a crew of 9 because Setsu decided to pre-shank Sha-Ming, and he was the engineer, so it was a wipe on day one when we froze the wrong guy.

Sha-Ming totally deserves it though.

Digital Osmosis
Nov 10, 2002

Smile, Citizen! Happiness is Mandatory.

Mostly wanted to say that Fedule, your alternative OP was quite comprehensive and good and I'm sorry you wasted that effort. I haven't played much since I'm nearly maxed out on all my stats after finishing the game and it's not super fun anymore-- I'll probably go to the new-save file when I feel the itch again.

But also wanted to point out the implied world-design in this game is actually pretty loving cool. I like how relentlessly transhumanist it is in almost every corner of the backstory. I feel like other settings would have picked, say, either uplifted animals or transferring consciousness into vat-grown bodies but Gnosia is all por-que-no-los-dos and then also throws five or six other "what is humanity" cyberpunky identity riddles at the player to top it off. Even "the boring one" (Gina, IMO) has connections to that theme and is how I at first started learning about how they inform the setting.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Fedule posted:

Yeah, Raqio was the one making big splashy arguments, I was just backing them up sometimes. I guess the Gnosia AI doesn't reason about the Guardian Angel, it just targets whoever it most hates.
Different characters actually choose targets differently as gnosia. Emotional characters avoid killing people they like and beeline towards people they hate(which is sometimes hilarious if, say, they're pretending to be the doctor/engineer and kill the only other one), more logical characters go for the rational targets(ex. killing both Guard Duty first, killing people who've caught onto them, not killing the real doctor/engineer if they're pretending to be that), and SQ and Jonas just kinda go for whoever. I'm not sure how the game decides which gnosia is the killer each night if the player isn't one of the gnosia, though.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


What exactly should I be using the end-of-day visits for? Aside from being able to level, I can kinda just go say hi to someone and that’s about it.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS

It can help you work out if someone likes you or not which can be helpful for making kill decisions as gnosia.

Tergaso
Mar 4, 2007

My God! Wooden eels! Surface! Surface!

Pollyanna posted:

What exactly should I be using the end-of-day visits for? Aside from being able to level, I can kinda just go say hi to someone and that’s about it.

It boosts your relationship with that character, which means they may come to your defense or support during the debates. Some characters base their decisions on who to go after based on whether or not they like you. If someone like Kukrushka is doubting you for no good reason, a visit at night might take the heat off. Some events won't trigger unless the person in question likes you, so the visits at night can help with that too. My recommendation is to always go for the event icons when they come up, especially early on when it's more likely to be a crew data event or skill unlock.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Hmm, got it. I definitely picked up on getting skills, at least.

It seems like sometimes attacking someone as a Gnosia doesn’t work, and it just says “no one was attacked last night”. Why does that happen? So I have to choose the same target as the other Gnosia?

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Pollyanna posted:

Hmm, got it. I definitely picked up on getting skills, at least.

It seems like sometimes attacking someone as a Gnosia doesn’t work, and it just says “no one was attacked last night”. Why does that happen? So I have to choose the same target as the other Gnosia?

Guardian angel protected them or they were a Bug

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

How do you actually use the "Definite Human" and "Definite Enemy" skills. I've unlocked them and I have the logic stat necessary, but I never seem to see them as an option. I may just never have gotten the in the moment prerequisites for them but I guess I'm not 100% sure what those are.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019
Here's a post I made before summarizing how the skill works. TL;DR: They pop up when you can pinpoint someone as Human or Gnosia based on elimination/logic.

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Basically you can use them when there's logic that makes them human/Gnosia 100%. So for example:

-A single Engineer/Doctor steps. They are human because AI always steps if they have the role (unless you don't step, in which case it bugs out and an evil is treated as Human). Any person a confirmed Engineer calls out is confirmed human/Gnosia as well. This can only happen if there are no death/cold sleeps before the calling (because the real Engineer could be dead/cold sleep).

-A fake claim makes an obvious lie, such as a doctor saying everyone voted out was Gnosia/Human because then the game should have ended right there. Or an Engineer who calls out someone as Gnosia but they die at night. Or any Engineer/Doctor claims when one of them dies at night (which is why you should NEVER kill those if claiming a role as evil and Raqio/Setsu/Yuriko are alive).

-By elimination. Let's say you are crew and the only people left are 2 Doctor claims and 2 Engineer claims, and the game has no bugs/AC Follower. You are definitively human because there are 2 evils and 2 crew in the rest and if you were Gnosia the game would end.

-Finally, what happened to you: if all D1 Engineers say someone is human, they are human because 1 of them is real and none of the contradict each other. The same if all say someone is Gnosia.

Gaffle
Aug 23, 2013

sWAg

It depends on the facts if the gamestate, which includes the number of gnosia in play, whether there's a bug or an ac follower, whether special roles came forward on day 1 or later. It kind of annoyed me that all the characters in the game know exactly how many gnosia and evil roles are in play because I would just mash event search and go and then forget while playing haha. But it is an important thing.

If only one person comes forward as doctor or engineer day one, they are the true doc/engineer because they will always come forward. But from day 2 onward that can't be trusted because the true role might have been voted out or killed.

If two characters come forward day one, then one of them dies overnight, then the dead one was true engineer and the other is gnosia so the moves will show up then. But that only applies if ac follower or bug are not in play. With an ac follower, the two engineers could both have been humans, so you can't say for sure whether the one left alive is enemy or not.

Once a true engineer or doctor is confirmed, their reports can also be used for Definite Human / Enemy as well. Or a logical inconsistency between a confirmed Doctor and several engineer reports can expose a lying engineer and the skills should show up then too.

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."

Regy Rusty posted:

How do you actually use the "Definite Human" and "Definite Enemy" skills. I've unlocked them and I have the logic stat necessary, but I never seem to see them as an option. I may just never have gotten the in the moment prerequisites for them but I guess I'm not 100% sure what those are.

You have to be logically sure that they are a human or a Gnosia. For instance, if there are two total engineers, and they both say someone is human, then that person is Definitely Human (one engineer is gnosia/AC/bug, and the other engineer is human because if the AI is human and has a role they will always claim it, and humans cannot lie about who they report on). Same thing is true if both engineers say that someone is a gnosia. There are a lot of other ways for it to happen, but they primarily revolve around the engineers, doctors, and total number of gnosia in the game.

(Another example would be a game with 1 gnosia, no AC, and no bug, and two people claim to be the engineer. In this case, all non-engineers are Definite Human, and if the gnosia engineer calls anyone else a gnosia, they become Definite Enemy)

Mega64
May 23, 2008

They only show up when the logic works out that at least one person must be human/Gnosia based on how the Engineer/Doctor reports shake out. There’s a few examples in the “How to Play” section.

For instance, I had a game where I was Engineer and Sha-Ming counter-claimed, with no AC Follower or Bug. By the final six, Sha-Ming had said two people still living were Gnosia. Since I would have had to be the third Gnosia, the game should’ve been over, but clearly wasn’t, which is why “Definite Enemy” popped up.

Dunno what happens if you choose the wrong person for Definite Human/Enemy though. I think it still lists everyone alive when choosing those, so you still have to logic things out yourself, but once those options pop up you know someone applies to that criteria, and that the Gnosia hosed up hard.

StarkRavingMad
Sep 27, 2001


Yams Fan
It always makes me laugh when Definite Human/Enemy pops up in the choice list and I'm like "????? No idea, hopefully someone else figures it out. Raqio, stage is all yours"

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Mega64 posted:

Dunno what happens if you choose the wrong person for Definite Human/Enemy though. I think it still lists everyone alive when choosing those, so you still have to logic things out yourself, but once those options pop up you know someone applies to that criteria, and that the Gnosia hosed up hard.

It either has someone tell you "Uuuuh where are you pulling that from?" Or, in case of a Guard Duty/already Definitive Human/Enemy, "Well, duh, Captain Obvious". I guess it tanks Affection and raises hate since you're being dumb and making random accusations or stating the obvious. The first one also happens if you use Vote on someone not marked as Gnosia by an Engineer.

Once you get high stats it's a perfectly valid option to spam it to negate turns/randomly guess who triggered it :v:

Scrap Dragon
Oct 6, 2013

SECRET TECHNIQUE:
DARK SHADOW
BLACK FALLEN ANGEL!


If you choose wrong on Definite Human/Enemy another character will step in and day, “That’s dumb, you’re dumb.” and probably increases how sus you seem to the rest of the crew.

Just, uh... don’t ask me how I know :negative:

e;fb

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

So is there any kind of strategy that I should go about turning on and off roles? It looks like the main reason I haven't seen it come up is I've never turned AC follower back off, and that adds so much more room for doubt. I've just been going with max people, 3 gnosia, and all roles for a bit now.

I did just finally unlock the bug I was the bug and I won by complete accident since I didn't even know, I assume this is not too unusual.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011
Just keep going with whatever. You'll get a thing later on. It's a thing that helps you narrow down the settings of games you should be playing to get events you haven't seen yet.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Lmao I had a run where Shigemichi was for some reason an un CCed Day 1 Engineer. They all still did their best to lose by sometimes following the blatantly obvious Gnosia in voting off randos but he and I corralled them to victory in the end.

Mega64
May 23, 2008

Shigemichi could be Guard Duty and still get voted off as suspected Gnosia because he’s just that bad.

Chaotic Flame
May 31, 2009

So...


Mega64 posted:

Shigemichi could be Guard Duty and still get voted off as suspected Gnosia because he’s just that bad.

Unless Remnan supports him because Everyone Hates Renman :shrug:

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I think I’m too stupid for this game. :negative: 99% of the time I have no real idea who could possibly be good or bad, especially with no clues to work off of. I’ve done multiple games now where I get ganged up on by two Gnosia and an AC picking off the rest of the party without me being able to tell who’s who.

This feels extremely random. Is there a way to tell what the gently caress is going on?

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Everyone dunks on Shigemichi but I'm convinced Gina is even worse at this than he is.

e:

Pollyanna posted:

I think I’m too stupid for this game. :negative: 99% of the time I have no real idea who could possibly be good or bad, especially with no clues to work off of. I’ve done multiple games now where I get ganged up on by two Gnosia and an AC picking off the rest of the party without me being able to tell who’s who.

This feels extremely random. Is there a way to tell what the gently caress is going on?
A large part of it is learning how each character operates so you can pick up on when they're being suspicious, and which characters to pay attention to when they suddenly start going after someone for no apparent reason(looking over the log at the end of each game can help with this, since you can go 'ohhhh, Comet suddenly started picking on Shigemichi because she noticed he was lying'. Or like in the screenshot below, 'oh, everyone turned on Gina because a bunch of people noticed her lying'. :v:).

Unlocking skills(and by extension, the AI characters getting their own skills) also helps reduce the amount of everyone flailing around at random. High intuition can help you notice lies, but it has to be so high for this to be even semi-reliable that I wouldn't invest in intuition just for that.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Haifisch fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 6, 2021

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS

Yeah but Gina hates being Gnosia so much that she deliberately loses. Shigemichi is just that bad

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.

Pollyanna posted:

I think I’m too stupid for this game. :negative: 99% of the time I have no real idea who could possibly be good or bad, especially with no clues to work off of. I’ve done multiple games now where I get ganged up on by two Gnosia and an AC picking off the rest of the party without me being able to tell who’s who.

This feels extremely random. Is there a way to tell what the gently caress is going on?

Get information. Learn personalities.

As Humans, at the beginning, you're going to be starving for details. Wait and watch. Make a note of who immediately starts throwing shade - it might be people on their bullshit but you might see some obvious patterns emerging. If you've got decent intuition, just get people talking, maybe one will slip. Get the Engineer and Doctor to pipe up ASAP; at least one of the liar classes will always try and claim those roles. Having the Guard Duty pipe up might also narrow your choices down. Basically, follow your gut on day one and be prepared to take a stab in the dark. The more people talk and act the more information you have. Watch for Comet, Chipie, and Remnan suddenly accusing people; they're intuitive and might have flashed on a lie. It's usually a solid plan to throw shade at whoever yesterday's victim voted for. Check the reports and try and draw inferences. And read the in-game help, it lists a lot of esoteric logic tricks you can use on people.

As Gnosia, remember that every time you defend a Gnosia or doubt a human or present any report (even if it's actually true) you are lying and people might perceive it; it's considerably less risky to join a dogpile in progress than start one yourself. Level up Stealth to get people to not immediately hate you when you try and lead a discussion and Performance if you want to be able to lie safely (and try and clean out the intuition crew early).

Remember that it's not about winning, necessarily. Plenty of events are contingent on losing. And, no matter what you do, you're still gaining levels, and every stat point makes things easier.

You can respec your character by playing as the Bug and visiting Yuriko after a round (she'll have a <!> event)

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Remember that you have an advantage none of these chuckleheads have - a functioning brain. You don't have magical lie spotting powers but you can spot patterns and weird things that they're literally incapable of. Make use of it.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Fedule posted:

The more people talk and act the more information you have. Watch for Comet, Chipie, and Remnan suddenly accusing people; they're intuitive and might have flashed on a lie. It's usually a solid plan to throw shade at whoever yesterday's victim voted for. Check the reports and try and draw inferences. And read the in-game help, it lists a lot of esoteric logic tricks you can use on people.
On this note, once you unlock Say You're Human, it's a good idea to use it relatively early on as non-gnosia/AC/bug if none of the AI beats you to it. The sheer volume of people talking makes it more likely that someone will notice a liar, and people not speaking up(if they're not one of the characters who almost never participates in a round of Say You're Human) acts as another tell.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Okay then, how about this. Game began, Comet accused Remnan and like literally everyone defended him, then like four people agreed that Comet was sus, then Comet accused Sha-Ming, the same thing happened, then Comet got like six guess what it was NINE votes and froze.

This was the beginning of the game. We didn’t even have time for anyone to lie. Way I see it, everyone ganging up on Comet is more suspicious than Comet’s accusations. What the gently caress happened?

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Apr 6, 2021

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