Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Mr. Trampoline
May 16, 2010

Pollyanna posted:

Okay then, how about this. Game began, Comet accused Remnan and like literally everyone defended him, then like four people agreed that Comet was sus, then Comet accused Sha-Ming, the same thing happened, then Comet got like six guess what it was NINE votes and froze.

This was the beginning of the game. We didn’t even have time for anyone to lie. Way I see it, everyone ganging up on Comet is more suspicious than Comet’s accusations. What the gently caress happened?

Comet accusing people could have been a lie that others picked up on but you didn't.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Scrap Dragon
Oct 6, 2013

SECRET TECHNIQUE:
DARK SHADOW
BLACK FALLEN ANGEL!


Did you check the log at the end? Lies can be detected from any statement, even just doubting/covering someone.

Also, someoneís gotta get voted out day one. Might as well be the person throwing around doubts

sirtommygunn
Mar 7, 2013



Don't overthink day 1, it's all about establishing relationships, role claims, and voting histories. Someone will be voted out based on nearly zero information, and they'll usually be one of the less persuasive crew members.

That said, once you get to know the characters there are some moves they can make day 1 that will immediately out them as non-human.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Certain characters tend to get voted out easily if there's no more obvious choice, and Comet's one of them. But given how lopsided those events were, I'm guessing she got caught in a lie(and Comet is really bad at lying).

Incidentally, it's worth looking at the character data for everyone(people who aren't in your current loop won't appear as an option though) and scrolling down to see their stats+blurb if you haven't already. It explains a lot about who tends to randomly get booted day 1, who's good at picking up on lies, who's bad at lying, etc.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Comet not only was human, but correctly identified Remnan as a Bug.





:shrug:

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
In that case it was likely just an unfortunate dogpile that she couldn't defend against because she's really bad at defending herself(and once a dogpile starts, it tends to feed into itself unless the player does something about it or until something else leads the AI to another character).

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.
Jonas and SQ are two of the more annoying Gnosia to deal with just because they both do incredibly suspicious poo poo even when they're human.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.


Haifisch posted:

Everyone dunks on Shigemichi but I'm convinced Gina is even worse at this than he is.

e:

A large part of it is learning how each character operates so you can pick up on when they're being suspicious, and which characters to pay attention to when they suddenly start going after someone for no apparent reason(looking over the log at the end of each game can help with this, since you can go 'ohhhh, Comet suddenly started picking on Shigemichi because she noticed he was lying'. Or like in the screenshot below, 'oh, everyone turned on Gina because a bunch of people noticed her lying'. :v:).

Unlocking skills(and by extension, the AI characters getting their own skills) also helps reduce the amount of everyone flailing around at random. High intuition can help you notice lies, but it has to be so high for this to be even semi-reliable that I wouldn't invest in intuition just for that.



Whaaa i didn't realize that showed when people's intuition stat procs and such like that! I might have to actually start reading those now.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Basically Comet likely picked up on a lie from Remnan and went in too hard causing others to doubt her in turn. Note that with all Gnosia and both liars voting for her, she would've had a hard time regardless. I dunno how the order of events went, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more persuasive liars accused her and swayed some weak willed others and a bandwagon formed. That can happen and sometimes there's just not much you can do about it! I just lost a game because a particularly chaotic bug Chipie kept swapping his suspicions and I just couldn't get people to focus on him and the last Gnosia.

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."
Another thing that helps a lot is to play as Gnosia and to remove the AC and Bug. This way you know exactly who is on what team and can start learning how everyone behaves. Doing this for 10 or so games will really get you into the flow of how different people act, and a lot of the events require you to be Gnosia anyway, so it's not like you're not advancing the story by doing so.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

The biggest adjustment for me in this game was coming to terms with the fact that the actual most important thing is to keep yourself alive. When I used to play Mafia I was very much the type who went all in hard with little regard for my own life because even if I got taken out, if I could rustle enough feathers my team could still win. Realizing that that's just not an option here really makes you reevaluate how you wanna go about it and when it's most important to try to force your agenda through.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

The single most satisfying action you can take in this is telling Gnosia Yuriko to shut up.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.


It took me longer than expected to unlock that Setsu fact because i always though the "lets play" dialog option was suppose to be said in a taunting or slightly aggressive sort of way


That was a good scene though.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice

Regy Rusty posted:

The single most satisfying action you can take in this is telling Gnosia Yuriko to shut up.

Where I'm at it feels like Yuriko is Gnosia and I'm not I basically just accept defeat. Maybe a lucky engineer push can get people hating her but most of the time whoever doubts her just gets frozen instantly

I'm level 70 but it still feels like I basically can't do anything so I don't know if the game is intended to scale to like level 300 or if I'm just crap at it

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.

cheetah7071 posted:

Where I'm at it feels like Yuriko is Gnosia and I'm not I basically just accept defeat. Maybe a lucky engineer push can get people hating her but most of the time whoever doubts her just gets frozen instantly

I'm level 70 but it still feels like I basically can't do anything so I don't know if the game is intended to scale to like level 300 or if I'm just crap at it

Character stats scale up as you unlock more information about them, so if you're advancing the story fast you'll start to have trouble keeping up. I finished the game with my level and loop count both somewhere in the 130s, I think, and that was with using a guide for the last few events.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
I love how Jonas is just so terminally Like That that a lot of the time the group just randomly votes him out on day one even when he didn't say anything, nobody called him sus, and everybody spent the whole round throwing shade at Gina.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Lmao I just had a hilarious loss where I was collaborating with Gnosia SQ and she decided to keep me alive as her sex slave because she liked me so much. :allears:

This is a good game

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Regy Rusty posted:

Lmao I just had a hilarious loss where I was collaborating with Gnosia SQ and she decided to keep me alive as her sex slave because she liked me so much. :allears:

This is a good game

That's a lot less hilarious when you realize (true ending spoilers) that's her mother Manan talking, meaning you're gonna be her new Remnan :gonk:

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.


I won Raqio's admiration by managing to catch them in a lie (they, as the Follower, claimed in one of their early reports (before they stepped forward) that SQ was Gnosia. On Day 1, Jonas was the only person claiming to be the Doctor, and before he got assassinated on Day 3, the day we voted SQ out, he confirmed that the two people we voted for on Day 1 were Gnosia. There were 3 Gnosia.) It took me a minute to figure out why Definite Enemy had appeared as an option but I sat and worked through it and here we are.



This happened immediately afterward. gently caress you too, Stella.



Setsu absolutely tried to shank me for that, but sweet blessed Otome stepped the gently caress up. Absolutely everyone rounded on Setsu on day 5.



Comet was rightly astonished to have survived a game as Guard Duty. Previously the targets were Yuriko (was trying to collaborate with me for plot, so I guess she had to die), Chipie, the other Guard, Jonas, the actual Doctor, and me, the annoying logic guy. I guess we all took the heat off.

As for why Setsu was so sus...



...Day 1 Human Stating remains a power move.

Fedule fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 6, 2021

WhiteHowler
Apr 3, 2001

I'M HUGE!
I've had Intuition at 20+ for a while now, but it hasn't unlocked the Say You're Human skill for me yet.

Is there a trick to doing this? I use the event search for most missions but don't look up what each one is, specifically.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

WhiteHowler posted:

I've had Intuition at 20+ for a while now, but it hasn't unlocked the Say You're Human skill for me yet.

Is there a trick to doing this? I use the event search for most missions but don't look up what each one is, specifically.

Not really, you get the skills from events with characters associated with them. I think Comet gives it? Generally high affection helps.

There's one that's horrible to get because you need to have a shitton of claimants at once and I think to have seen all of Raqios logic tutorials? That was the last I got.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
As far as I know you don't need high Intuition to get the scene, you just need to have Comet on a high affection and both be human.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Further post: It seems the game has a few localisation issues?



The caption says I "succeeded" in putting all the claimed Engineers into cold sleep, when actually I was just agreeing with the plan. There are a couple of weird instances like this that as far as I remember are all technical summaries of stuff.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

I know the AC Follower role is kind of dumb and busted, but it still blew my mind here when Sha-Ming collaborated with me and staunchly backed me up against the blatantly Gnosia Otome.

Digital Osmosis
Nov 10, 2002

Smile, Citizen! Happiness is Mandatory.

He probably thought you were Gnosia. I power-leveled using the setup mentioned earlier in the thread (5 people, engineer, doctor, 1 Gnosia, you as the AC follower) and there were a number of times before I had my skills high enough / learned the personalities when it was down to me and two people on day 2 and I accidently iced the Gnosia instead of the crew member. Just like in real Mafia sometimes you guess wrong or fixate on one thing that actually has no real significance.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Lol the very next round using the same setup the exact same thing happened, except this time Sha-Ming was the bug so he actually won.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Dirk the Average posted:

Another thing that helps a lot is to play as Gnosia and to remove the AC and Bug. This way you know exactly who is on what team and can start learning how everyone behaves. Doing this for 10 or so games will really get you into the flow of how different people act, and a lot of the events require you to be Gnosia anyway, so it's not like you're not advancing the story by doing so.

Thanks, Iíll try that out. 5 people, me Gnosia, Eng+Doctor. Iíve picked up on a couple things: Raqio and Setsu can immediately tell when someoneís lying about claiming a role, cause they always put down definite human when they come forward. Thatís good to know, means I canít claim a role as Gnosia when theyíre in game.

Not sure what else to watch out for. Iím really only seeing the typical group dynamics, not much else thatís unique to characters.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Pollyanna posted:

Raqio and Setsu can immediately tell when someoneís lying about claiming a role, cause they always put down definite human when they come forward.

That's probably because if only one person claims a role, they are 100% that role, th AI will always claim. (If you don't, bad things can happen....). Setsu and Raqio just have enough Logic to call out they are human. If you claim a role as Gnosia, or someone else claims they can't confirm it unless one of the claims dies at night since, duh. In fact Raqio is bad at finding lies iirc, he's just good at figuring out who's sus by... logic.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Oh. Hm.

Iím learning nothing, then.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice
I do wish this game had a few more months of polish layered on top of it. Something like a screen that sorts information by character: like I can select Setsu and it tells me that on day one they doubted SQ, defended Raqio, and voted for SQ, then on day 2 they claimed Engineer, said Raqio was human, voted for Jonas, then got killed by Gnosia. Having all that information sorted by character rather than having to look in five different menus would be really nice. Maybe even with a system for taking notes, like being able to jot down that Setsu seemed really chummy with Raqio in that scenario.

Plus I think it would have been nice to have more variety in the text that can pop up for each combination of character and action

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Also wow 5/1 as Gnosia is real fuckin hard. Iíve lost more on this setup than anything else.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Good god the EXP gains from the 5v1 AC setup are indeed obscene. How is this stuff actually calculated? It doesn't seem like it should be so high; it's not difficult if you're passable at just staying alive and maybe have literally any Performance.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer

Pollyanna posted:

Thanks, Iíll try that out. 5 people, me Gnosia, Eng+Doctor. Iíve picked up on a couple things: Raqio and Setsu can immediately tell when someoneís lying about claiming a role, cause they always put down definite human when they come forward. Thatís good to know, means I canít claim a role as Gnosia when theyíre in game.

Not sure what else to watch out for. Iím really only seeing the typical group dynamics, not much else thatís unique to characters.

You're not supposed to play as Gnosia to level up. You're supposed to play as AC follower, because that's the "hardest" role to succeed in and thus gives the most exp.

5 people: 1 Gnosia (not you), 1 engineer, 1 doctor, 1 AC follower (you), 1 normal human. I actually posted this before, let me see....


HenryEx posted:

Since winning as AC Follower is so "hard", it gives great exp.

So if you want to farm EXP real quick, do:

- Start as AC Follower
- 5 players
- 1 Gnosia
- Engineer in play
- Doctor in play

This means there's exactly one normal crew member, 1 engi, 1 doctor, 1 gnosia, and you. Call out the other roles on day 1, claim engineer and get the other (real) one voted out. If you can't do that, try to figure out the obvious 1 crew member and get them voted out. Claim the Gnosia to be human with your fake engineer powers, and day 2 should be a cake walk.

Even if you gently caress up the first day, it's like 30 seconds and you still get some exp. If you win on day 2, it's exp payday for a hard-earned "tough" AC follower round that takes like 2 minutes.

this does limit your character pool somewhat though and Setsu is always a part, so it's purely good for stats and not so good for learning characters.


edit: now that i think about it, i do like how they took the time to build story justification for Setsu to always be part of the crew, aside from "Setsu is the player's companion gameplay-wise". A loop without Setsu just couldn't exist.

HenryEx fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 6, 2021

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Fedule posted:

Good god the EXP gains from the 5v1 AC setup are indeed obscene. How is this stuff actually calculated? It doesn't seem like it should be so high; it's not difficult if you're passable at just staying alive and maybe have literally any Performance.

It's basically how stacked are the odds against you. I late game farmed 15 crew 1 Gnosia as Gnosia with no other evils and all the good roles and as long as your stats are high you can just gain the trust of a few members and pray the Guardian Angel misses. You can get hundreds of thousands of EXP even if it takes a bit.

15 crew 6 Gnosia no roles and AC Follower/Bug is not as good since putting a crew to cold sleep means Game Over and you also have to find the Bug.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I won a 15/3 as Crew with everyone enabled and I have no idea now. Yuriko carried my rear end.

HenryEx posted:

You're not supposed to play as Gnosia to level up. You're supposed to play as AC follower, because that's the "hardest" role to succeed in and thus gives the most exp.

5 people: 1 Gnosia (not you), 1 engineer, 1 doctor, 1 AC follower (you), 1 normal human. I actually posted this before, let me see....


this does limit your character pool somewhat though and Setsu is always a part, so it's purely good for stats and not so good for learning characters.


edit: now that i think about it, i do like how they took the time to build story justification for Setsu to always be part of the crew, aside from "Setsu is the player's companion gameplay-wise". A loop without Setsu just couldn't exist.

Iím following this post:

Dirk the Average posted:

Another thing that helps a lot is to play as Gnosia and to remove the AC and Bug. This way you know exactly who is on what team and can start learning how everyone behaves. Doing this for 10 or so games will really get you into the flow of how different people act, and a lot of the events require you to be Gnosia anyway, so it's not like you're not advancing the story by doing so.

Cause I think itís kinda pointless to thoroughly learn characters aside from Comet being bad at lying, Shigemichi always claiming to be a role heís not, and Kukrushka and Yuriko amassing a meat shield of followers. Most of the game takes place by figuring out whoís sympathetic to who, and then using the Engineer/Doctor reports to figure out which roles are fake, then correlating that with voting records and discussions.

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 6, 2021

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."

Pollyanna posted:

I won a 15/3 as Crew with everyone enabled and I have no idea now. Yuriko carried my rear end.


Iím following this post:


Cause I think itís kinda pointless to thoroughly learn characters aside from Comet being bad at lying, Shigemichi always claiming to be a role heís not, and Kukrushka and Yuriko amassing a meat shield of followers. Most of the game takes place by figuring out whoís sympathetic to who, and then using the Engineer/Doctor reports to figure out which roles are fake, then correlating that with voting records and discussions.

Honestly I suggested it less as a way to learn characters and more as a way to learn how the Gnosia work and think. By being able to precisely see who is on which side (since you as Gnosia know all of your fellow Gnosia), you can much more easily learn how the AI plays as Gnosia and how to play it yourself.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Okay, well, lemme think a little bit.

Gnosia are more likely to Doubt, Cover, etc. unpromoted since they donít have to worry about getting killed for voicing an opinion or pissing off the wrong people.

Theyíll also defend each other, unless theyíre Sha-Ming I guess.

If youíre Gnosia, is it better to immediately claim a role to muddy the waters from the start, or wait until someone brings it up?

Also, should I always waste the real Eng/Doctor if possible? And if so, does that mean if I see this happen, the surviving role is fake?

Edit: Also also, is there any downside to immediately Doubting the fake role of someone claims it but youíre the real one?

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.

Pollyanna posted:

If youíre Gnosia, is it better to immediately claim a role to muddy the waters from the start, or wait until someone brings it up?

Not always. If multiple people claim a role on day one, everyone will be certain that all but one of the people claiming each role are liars, so you'll have to continually deal with that. You'll need a lot more performance than normal to do this, because every time you present any report you'll be lying (ordinarily as Gnosia you're always lying if you defend a Gnosia or doubt a human). If you wait until later days, you can remove the ability of people to be certain that the real engineer is in play, and also make it more likely that you'll be the only one contending the role. This isn't airtight, since people will be wary of the possibility that whoever got cold-slept or ganked on Day 1 might be the real one, but it also means you won't have the real one immediately gunning for you, and if you can get people onside you can write the truth with your reports.


Pollyanna posted:

Also, should I always waste the real Eng/Doctor if possible? And if so, does that mean if I see this happen, the surviving role is fake?

Edit: Also also, is there any downside to immediately Doubting the fake role of someone claims it but you’re the real one?

If an Engineer or Doctor is ganked, it confirms they were human. They might have been the AC follower, but on the whole if all but one of the Engineers or Doctors are ganked it looks very, very sus.

If you're the real Engineer or Doctor you obviously know for certain that others are faking, but nobody else can be sure that you know this. If you have the stats you will be able to start a dogpile on the fake just with sheer charisma, but if you're going up against SQ or Kukrushka or motherfucking Yuriko this can backfire on you if you go in half-cocked.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
As Gnosia, every time you doubt a not-Gnosia or cover a not-Human, you open yourself up for getting caught in a lie. If i play Gnosia, i'm far more careful about doubting someone / joining in on a bandwagon than when i play Human and can just go ham on bullying someone.

My M.O. for role claiming is to avoid it if possible and let your team mates take the fall, unless i have a plan for sabotage. Keep in mind that when you fake a role, you'll be lying constantly and have the high intuition characters on your rear end constantly. If needed, i usually claim a role second if someone prompts or the role themself speak up. If no one asks for a step forward and you get to day two or maybe even three with roles unclaimed, i can take a chance and claim a role and hope the real one was already iced and i have no contenders. The others will know you're possibly an impostor, but you can dictate the records freely and uncontested, which is worth a lot.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ryanbomber
Sep 27, 2004

Pollyanna posted:

Edit: Also also, is there any downside to immediately Doubting the fake role of someone claims it but youíre the real one?

What to do with fakeclaimers depend on your and their stats - high Logic players might want to wait until they make a mistake to Definite Enemy them, high Charisma players can just bully them into getting iced, low Performance fakeclaimers you can wait for other characters to catch onto lies, etc. Unless they're super charismatic, you can usually let them live for a few days without worrying about people following their false reports.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply