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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Waffleman_ posted:

This seems like a silly argument because like all isekai are ripping each other off nowadays.

I'm a Spider so What was published as a WN originally in lets see, 2015. That Time I Got Reincarnated As a Slime is 2013 to 2016 as a Web Novel. So technically Slime was first but I think there's definitely some salt to be pinched as to whether for sure Slime was an influence on Spider when there's probably some other web novel of reincarnating to a cockroach or grasshopper that probably existed even earlier.

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Doodles
Apr 14, 2001



They're all just cribbing from Franz Kafka.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Isekai WNs are copies of copies of Familiar of Zero and Sword Art Online fanfiction. It feels weird to criticize specific isekai WNs for copying from each other.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Familiar of Zero is I hear a very old example of isekai (oldest though is Alice in Wonderland), in this specific example though we want to consider an isekai where you reincarnate as a dragon or some other creature. So not like the King Arthur story of him being turned into a Mouse because there also needs a component of being in another world.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


divine realms generally count as other worlds and there are a metric fuckton of myths where humans go to one. it's not a new concept.

heck, afterlife parables are isekai stories.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



let's dig deep here though and talk about how zero no tsukaima and other otaku works in the early 00s were influenced by the first few harry potter movies, isekai themselves, and how everyone was enamored with young hermione's huge poofy hair and this resulted in chars like louise

'magic school' itself being a hugely common LN premise behind or sometimes company to isekai, ofc

SatoshiMiwa
May 6, 2007




We all know that 00's/10's isekai are influenced by the true 90's animated Classic....

King Arthur and the Knights of Justice

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


getting isekai’d from one story to the next by means of a persistent magical artifact that summons a runaway semi in any environment

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



All modern isekai are just ripoffs of the great and illustrious Tomino's magnum opus, Garzey's Wing.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


Everyone always pulls out the "ACTUALLY Alice in Wonderland and Narnia are Isekai!" card but I've never really bought it. Isekai confers a whole list of tropes and cliches that stories like that don't really have. "Goes to a fantasy land" is so broad a genre qualifier as to be useless on it's own.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





The first modern isekai is the Barsoom series. It's got the bikini girls, candy-colored hair (skin), other world transit by barely explained magic, racism, monstrously powerful protagonist, most major female characters falling in love with the protag, long rants on the author's opinion of religion and society. It's all there.

Xun
Apr 25, 2010



C-christianity is an isekai????

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012



Xun posted:

C-christianity is an isekai????

The new testament is an isekai from Jesus' perspective. Think about it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



john carter definitely traces pretty closely to modern isekai, yeah. carter's past is specifically barely addressed, even - the immediate circumstances before he gets transported to mars are there (civil war vet, prospector), but he can't remember his childhood and so he never reflects on it. that's another trope a lot of z-grade isekai sticks to.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Space Flower posted:

granted, it was garters, and you mixed her up with an erodoujin afterword i brought up before (the LN author just says "arent garters nice?"), but the endorsement stands
yeah thats close enough for me

Doodles
Apr 14, 2001



I'm just surprised no one ever brings up Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

Nipponophile
Apr 8, 2009


Doodles posted:

I'm just surprised no one ever brings up Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

People bring it up constantly.

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014





galagazombie posted:

Everyone always pulls out the "ACTUALLY Alice in Wonderland and Narnia are Isekai!" card but I've never really bought it. Isekai confers a whole list of tropes and cliches that stories like that don't really have. "Goes to a fantasy land" is so broad a genre qualifier as to be useless on it's own.

This is a perennial problem in nerd discourse: someone brings up a recent trend and tries to analyse why it's a thing, and then people pipe up with things that are technically examples from 50 years ago, or the other side of the world. And, like, yes, they might be correct, but it doesn't really give much insight into the question "what's with the current isekai boom?" or whatever the thing at hand is.


Terrible Opinions posted:

The first modern isekai is the Barsoom series. It's got the bikini girls, candy-colored hair (skin), other world transit by barely explained magic, racism, monstrously powerful protagonist, most major female characters falling in love with the protag, long rants on the author's opinion of religion and society. It's all there.

This on the other hand is a fine point.

IShallRiseAgain
Sep 12, 2008

Well ain't that precious?



Endorph posted:

john carter definitely traces pretty closely to modern isekai, yeah. carter's past is specifically barely addressed, even - the immediate circumstances before he gets transported to mars are there (civil war vet, prospector), but he can't remember his childhood and so he never reflects on it. that's another trope a lot of z-grade isekai sticks to.

He can't remember his childhood because he is immortal, and this is before the whole teleported to mars thing. One would assume that would be relevant to the plot, but its not.

Mentat Radnor
Apr 24, 2008

~Water flowers every day~


Bishounen Tanteidan is giving off a big feeling of "What if SHAFT made Ouran Highschool Host Club, but they solve mysteries?"

So exactly as expected, which means I'm enjoying it. The first episode was mostly character introductions with snappy dialogue and gorgeous art.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Spring Season 2021: Christianity is Isekai?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

divine realms generally count as other worlds and there are a metric fuckton of myths where humans go to one. it's not a new concept.

heck, afterlife parables are isekai stories.

My question was more which story predates Kumo desu ga/Slime Reincarnation in the subgenre of "reincarnates as a monster/other creature".


galagazombie posted:

Everyone always pulls out the "ACTUALLY Alice in Wonderland and Narnia are Isekai!" card but I've never really bought it. Isekai confers a whole list of tropes and cliches that stories like that don't really have. "Goes to a fantasy land" is so broad a genre qualifier as to be useless on it's own.

I like to bring up Alice in Wonderland mainly as a joke (because it's one of those statements the more you think about it the more thought and effort your forced into thinking about it and its fun watching those gears turn). But the main serious reason for pointing it out is to make a point about how nearly all stories share similar structures, such as the Heroes Journey. In Isekai crossing the threshold requires dying while in Alice in Wonderland/Narnia there's a portal instead. This could matter because isekai tend to have buddhist themes about reincarnation/starting over while stuff like Narnia/Alice in Wonderland is more about fixing/protecting what you have with the goal of actually returning to resume where you left off. It's actually not useless but you have to contextualize it in the right discussion framework like Carl Jung and the fact that all of these stories have repeating patterns and structures (I think this is also called Structuralism) to turn around to then discuss why the small differences matter.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


even though there were definitely others kumoko was the popular one that started the trend. it's not like there's an obscure origin for any of these, really. it's just what was popular on narou 10-15 years ago.

Everything Burrito
Jun 2, 2011



Brutal Garcon posted:

This is a perennial problem in nerd discourse: someone brings up a recent trend and tries to analyse why it's a thing, and then people pipe up with things that are technically examples from 50 years ago, or the other side of the world. And, like, yes, they might be correct, but it doesn't really give much insight into the question "what's with the current isekai boom?" or whatever the thing at hand is.

plus it's super tedious and always derails whatever the conversation was originally about

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Brutal Garcon posted:

This is a perennial problem in nerd discourse: someone brings up a recent trend and tries to analyse why it's a thing, and then people pipe up with things that are technically examples from 50 years ago, or the other side of the world. And, like, yes, they might be correct, but it doesn't really give much insight into the question "what's with the current isekai boom?" or whatever the thing at hand is.
Alice and Narnia don't count because there's a method of transmission that remains open. I'd also argue that Isekai now has a definite aspect of rebirth and transformation (either a physical rebirth or a transformation of the characters to be able to achieve spectacular things not common in the Real World like Elder Chaos Magiks or whatever).

There's things like InuYasha and Digimon and Escaflowne that involve travel to other worlds and traditional hero stories but don't quite count.

Like then you get silly and start saying Harlan Ellison's Soldier from Tomorrow is an Isekai.

As for why it's en vogue now? I think we saw some trappings of it with things like Lain exploring the idea of divides between the world of technology and our everyday human lives. The idea that the digital world mirrors/affects us is a tantalizing topic. And you then had .hack// and SAO and Overlord being increasingly gameitic and drawing on mmo trappings directly. I think the current trend of "MMO But" style iseks have more to do with the increased presence of technology in our lives, and the experimentation like Spider is a consequence of the genre being old enough to invite that kind of alternate take.

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 12, 2021

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



Reborn in Another World Where People Endlessly Rehash the Definition of Isekai

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Brutal Garcon posted:

This is a perennial problem in nerd discourse: someone brings up a recent trend and tries to analyse why it's a thing, and then people pipe up with things that are technically examples from 50 years ago, or the other side of the world. And, like, yes, they might be correct, but it doesn't really give much insight into the question "what's with the current isekai boom?" or whatever the thing at hand is.
i mean nobody ever goes 'whats with the current isekai boom' they go 'i cant believe slime is the first ln ever to have a guy go to another world!!!'

and also spaces comment about zero no tsukaima fanfic actually answered the question of whats with the current isekai boom. that isnt a joke. that is the answer you're looking for.

esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

The 7th Guest posted:

'heroes are the ultimate cringe'" localization. can't wait for all the epic memery XD hope they make a freakin FTW "that's gonna be a no from me dawg" reference :twisted:

Which English word you would use to translate "chuunibyou"?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



multiple authors of popular isekai web novels: i based it off zero no tsukaima fanfic

'alright, but where does it come from?'

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008



Harry potter

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



esselfortium posted:

Which English word you would use to translate "chuunibyou"?
LARPer would probably work fine, but it's not 1 to 1 since LARPers aren't actually delusional. if you wanted to strip out any modern colloquialism you could just say "they're heroes in name only". but dearia already kind of says that, explaining that heroes are basically for-hire goons. "they are indeed cringe" is just some localizer hoping that shot will be clipped and spread on twitter

esselfortium
Jul 19, 2006

Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

The 7th Guest posted:

some localizer hoping that shot will be clipped and spread on twitter

This is the absolute last thing that any translator wants.

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



esselfortium posted:

This is the absolute last thing that any translator wants.
then I guess just translate it as i said it

if at any point letty says "wow! this house is truly poggers" i will leave my body

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



i'm sure it's not so much effort to edit your own sub track for the show

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





A very direct translation of a comedy is gonna be pretty bad. Needs localization to preserve a joke.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Terrible Opinions posted:

A very direct translation of a comedy is gonna be pretty bad. Needs localization to preserve a joke.

Sleepy Princess has tonnes of subtle localization changes in its dub, and it just fantastic :allears:.

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



if you want dubs going wild, this one has been blowing up the past day

https://twitter.com/kaegozho/status/1380960013045366791?s=19

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


FilthyImp posted:

Alice and Narnia don't count because there's a method of transmission that remains open.

That depends on which book you're reading for the Chronicles. LWW and MN have hopping back and forth between worlds, in others they're summoned and don't have access to a way back without doing something like reaching the Edge of the World.

Allarion
May 16, 2009

がんばルビ!


FilthyImp posted:

Alice and Narnia don't count because there's a method of transmission that remains open. I'd also argue that Isekai now has a definite aspect of rebirth and transformation (either a physical rebirth or a transformation of the characters to be able to achieve spectacular things not common in the Real World like Elder Chaos Magiks or whatever).

There's things like InuYasha and Digimon and Escaflowne that involve travel to other worlds and traditional hero stories but don't quite count.

Like then you get silly and start saying Harlan Ellison's Soldier from Tomorrow is an Isekai.

As for why it's en vogue now? I think we saw some trappings of it with things like Lain exploring the idea of divides between the world of technology and our everyday human lives. The idea that the digital world mirrors/affects us is a tantalizing topic. And you then had .hack// and SAO and Overlord being increasingly gameitic and drawing on mmo trappings directly. I think the current trend of "MMO But" style iseks have more to do with the increased presence of technology in our lives, and the experimentation like Spider is a consequence of the genre being old enough to invite that kind of alternate take.

I mean, there’s plenty of isekai that play around with the format of whether they can go back to their original world or not. There’s already a few about characters who’ve returned from an isekai adventure, so it’s a bit silly to just narrowly define it as a one-way/reincarnation trip cause even in modern webnovels, there’s already a sizeable amount that play with that restriction. Even current popular ones like Spider have already shown that the way back is possible but there are other reasons why a character might choose to stay.

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The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003



Terrible Opinions posted:

A very direct translation of a comedy is gonna be pretty bad. Needs localization to preserve a joke.
i agree, actually, i just disliked those couple of lines

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