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OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?

I remember a textbook I had as a kid that describes the Portuguese reaching China and it talked about how unimpressed the Chinese were because the Portuguese ships were smaller than theirs and didn't have as many gold decorations. I guess it intended that to show how the Europeans were less advanced than the Chinese because their boats were small. It was only later that I realized how dumb that was and that the Chinese should probably have realized the advantages of working, ocean going vessels that can sail around the world instead of scoffing that they didn't have enough bling.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

A thing to keep in mind was 300 years ago, they had a massive fleet that sailed all the way to africa no problem, so from a certain perspective this is just Europeans barely catching up to where they were 300 years ago. China for whatever its worth, decided they didn't need to be a maritime power and so had no reason to be impressed with however advanced the ships were.

I think an important question is who was going to be "that person" to go against the grain and suggest they even cautiously keep an eye on things and possibly risk their position and career. People forward thinking and open minded enough to consider the implications probably could never have made it within earshot of the Emperor.

Beefeater1980 posted:

Ha ha yes, it worked out really well to send those idiots off with a flea in their ear :smith:

The Emperor and his officials quite correctly read the power dynamic as of 1795 but even if you donít blame them for not predicting the way the next 40 years would change that, they should possibly have put more weight on the implications of Macartneyís team, who were not morons, challenging the idea that the Emperor was on a level of his own above their King. I think this thread is the first time Iíve seen the response presented as a diplomatic masterstroke.

Then again, China had had lovely ships compared to Europeans for 300 years at that point and it had never been a problem so itís understandable that he didnít immediately see the implications of the Macartney ships (and when they eventually did build a proper fleet, the Japanese promptly sank it).

As unfortunate as things ended up being I think we're just amused that there was at least a period of time where a non-European power was still massive and powerful and stable enough to tell the Brits to go gently caress themselves and we're just retroactively clapping.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010


Beefeater1980 posted:

Ha ha yes, it worked out really well to send those idiots off with a flea in their ear :smith:

The Emperor and his officials quite correctly read the power dynamic as of 1795 but even if you donít blame them for not predicting the way the next 40 years would change that, they should possibly have put more weight on the implications of Macartneyís team, who were not morons, challenging the idea that the Emperor was on a level of his own above their King. I think this thread is the first time Iíve seen the response presented as a diplomatic masterstroke.

Then again, China had had lovely ships compared to Europeans for 300 years at that point and it had never been a problem so itís understandable that he didnít immediately see the implications of the Macartney ships (and when they eventually did build a proper fleet, the Japanese promptly sank it).

I think literally every other time I've ever seen this referenced it's been described as a disaster.

Tuna-Fish
Sep 13, 2017


Vasukhani posted:

I hate the ship designer thing too. The whole point is you choose the techs, and then ofc your naval college will figure out the rest. It doesnt need to be extrapolated on.

The only feature I want from Vic3 ships is realistic obsolescence as demonstrated in RTW. That is, it takes two years to build a big ship, and by the time it launches new ones will be laid down that will be able to effortlessly kill it once they launch. This is the opposite of the Vic2 model of a threshold tech you research after which all your ships are identical and you just build gazillion of them.

No designer is needed for this, just very rapid progression and spread in naval tech.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Raenir Salazar posted:

A thing to keep in mind was 300 years ago, they had a massive fleet that sailed all the way to africa no problem, so from a certain perspective this is just Europeans barely catching up to where they were 300 years ago. China for whatever its worth, decided they didn't need to be a maritime power and so had no reason to be impressed with however advanced the ships were.

That historian who reviews EU4 approach to history talks about this question in the latest blog post. Only here he mentions how Chinese didn't need early firearms because they couldn't foresee how effective late firearms would be and they didn't have many benefits from using early guns or cannons in their environment. It's probably similar with ocean going vessels: if they were forced to look for land to expand they probably could discover other lands and extract resources from there, but they were fine as it is. It'd be dumb for them to just hope to find Colorado gold mines so they stayed home.

https://acoup.blog/2021/05/28/collections-teaching-paradox-europa-universalis-iv-part-iv-why-europe/

He's going to talk about Victoria 2 in his next post by the way.

Dayton Sports Bar
Oct 31, 2019


Tuna-Fish posted:

The only feature I want from Vic3 ships is realistic obsolescence as demonstrated in RTW. That is, it takes two years to build a big ship, and by the time it launches new ones will be laid down that will be able to effortlessly kill it once they launch. This is the opposite of the Vic2 model of a threshold tech you research after which all your ships are identical and you just build gazillion of them.

No designer is needed for this, just very rapid progression and spread in naval tech.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at; RtW's systems produced some interesting interactions at the strategic level that would be great to see reflected in Vicky's mechanics. Like how that constant race against obsolescence leads to all sorts of foreign policy pressures and civil-military interactions.

yikes! posted:

I would prefer if we didn't even have manual control of our navies. Just let me assign ships to fleets and fleets to missions like blockade or trade protection or whatever. I hate controlling navies.

That's also a place I think Vicky could legitmately take after RtW. It would be a pretty extreme level of abstraction/blackboxing, but actually thinking in terms of tonnage spread across theatres just feels much more evocative of actual grand strategy than right-clicking stacks of ships around.

Pharohman777
Jan 14, 2012



Regarding silver, from what I've picked up from history podcasts, mercenary companies in europe were paid in silver, so a trade deficit in silver would be seen as a critical national security issue, especially after the war of the spanish succession, the revolutionary war, etc depleted Britians stores.
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/06/15/hired-guns-ten-amazing-facts-about-the-hessians/

quote:

IN 1715, Englandís King George I hired 12,000 Hessians when war broke out with the Scots and French. It would be the start of a long and profitable relationship for Hesse-Kassel. By the 1720s, Britain was doling out the princely sum of £125,000 yearly to Hesse-Kassel, simply to keep 12,000 Hessian troops on standby. By the end of the decade, that figure had doubled to £250,000 a year.
Having a vault of silver to pay mercenaries was literally a manner of national security, and it was being spent to feed Britain's tea craze.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Pharohman777 posted:

Regarding silver, from what I've picked up from history podcasts, mercenary companies in europe were paid in silver, so a trade deficit in silver would be seen as a critical national security issue, especially after the war of the spanish succession, the revolutionary war, etc depleted Britians stores.
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/06/15/hired-guns-ten-amazing-facts-about-the-hessians/
Having a vault of silver to pay mercenaries was literally a manner of national security, and it was being spent to feed Britain's tea craze.

That's not the case in 1836

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!





Raenir Salazar posted:

A thing to keep in mind was 300 years ago, they had a massive fleet that sailed all the way to africa no problem, so from a certain perspective this is just Europeans barely catching up to where they were 300 years ago. China for whatever its worth, decided they didn't need to be a maritime power and so had no reason to be impressed with however advanced the ships were.

I think an important question is who was going to be "that person" to go against the grain and suggest they even cautiously keep an eye on things and possibly risk their position and career. People forward thinking and open minded enough to consider the implications probably could never have made it within earshot of the Emperor.
As unfortunate as things ended up being I think we're just amused that there was at least a period of time where a non-European power was still massive and powerful and stable enough to tell the Brits to go gently caress themselves and we're just retroactively clapping.

Yeah fair enough. Itís still depressing how it all ended up.

Although the Qing were also an ethnically distinct military elite repressing a giant population of ďinferiorsĒ so eh. Iím actually pretty excited to see if and how Taiping and the end of the Qing are modelled, thereís a ton of cool and interesting alt history you could do around that.

Tuna-Fish
Sep 13, 2017


AnEdgelord posted:

Yeah it should be noted that, while the euros were 100% the bad guys and ultimately responsible for everything bad that happened, the Qing empire was also just very badly run. Thats part of the reason poo poo like the Taipei rebellion and other uprisings kept happening in the first place.

Not just badly run, but fundamentally evil. The Qing empire was a racist apartheid state where the ruling Manchu minority had a policy of trying to trigger revolts early, and for that reason had laws and policies that were specifically and only designed to be maximally offensive and repulsive to the majority of their population, just so that anyone who dared to question them could be easily identified and murdered. Know that weird hairstyle that all the Chinese people have in period stuff, shaved in the front with a braid in the back? That was the traditional Manchu hairstyle, which the Manchus forced all their male subjects to adopt on pain of execution for treason. That wouldn't be so bad, except for the fact that those living by traditional Confucian beliefs are not allowed to cut their hair. The catchy slogan for the law was: "Cut the hair and keep the head, (or) keep the hair and cut the head." They had a lot of that kind of stuff.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!





Tuna-Fish posted:

Not just badly run, but fundamentally evil. The Qing empire was a racist apartheid state where the ruling Manchu minority had a policy of trying to trigger revolts early,

So they were EU4 players is what Iím hearing?

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011




VostokProgram posted:

the game should have a sims style building editor, so that you can design your own palaces, government buildings, monuments, opera houses, etc. and when the worlds fair happens you get to design your pavilion for that

e: what are some cool books on imperialism i should read to get ready for vicky 3. besides the one by lenin

If you want books on India you could do much worse than William Dalrymple's books, recommend the Anarchy (decline and collapse of the Mughal Empire and the rise of the EIC in Bengal and eventually all of India), Return of a King (first Anglo-Afghan War) and the Last Mughal (1857 Indian Mutiny through the lens of the last Mughal ruler to nominally reign in Delhi).

Friar John
Aug 3, 2007

Saint Francis be my speed! how oft to-night
Have my old feet stumbled at graves!

One thing I'd like to be able to do is destabilize other nations, honestly. I want my Motojiro Akashi throwing cash at minority Nationalist parties in Russia, or to throw Lenin at my rival in a sealed train. Or just hold onto dissidents from other countries like pokemon I can call on when the time is right, or they get too comfortable and start agitating for poo poo in my country.

AG3
Feb 4, 2004

Ask me about spending hundreds of dollars on Mass Effect 2 emoticons and Avatars.



Oven Wrangler

This is fun until all the AI players do the same thing to you.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



AG3 posted:

This is fun until all the AI players do the same thing to you.

I wish the AI would do that poo poo to me

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

Tuna-Fish posted:

Not just badly run, but fundamentally evil. The Qing empire was a racist apartheid state where the ruling Manchu minority had a policy of trying to trigger revolts early, and for that reason had laws and policies that were specifically and only designed to be maximally offensive and repulsive to the majority of their population, just so that anyone who dared to question them could be easily identified and murdered.

They were also engaging in actual imperialism (up to genocide; see Dzungars) throughout the period; thereís a reason Qingís borders are so much more expansive than Mingís. The Qing really werenít the heroes in their story.

Uh, not that the British were either.

Zedhe Khoja
Nov 10, 2017

Truth Shines, Comrades!


I really think the "sending Lenin to destabilize Russia" thing is a bit overplayed. If giving the dude living in a sausage factory a bus ticket destroyed your empire, you were living on borrowed time already.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Zedhe Khoja posted:

I really think the "sending Lenin to destabilize Russia" thing is a bit overplayed. If giving the dude living in a sausage factory a bus ticket destroyed your empire, you were living on borrowed time already.

It's just a meme. The very same train had more democrats than communists. Those were just dissidents sent to Russia cause why not. So technically it's true but it's like saying that Austrian Academy of Arts exams are responsible for the rise of Nazism.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

This is why we have orders, general.

Koramei posted:

They were also engaging in actual imperialism (up to genocide; see Dzungars) throughout the period; thereís a reason Qingís borders are so much more expansive than Mingís. The Qing really werenít the heroes in their story.

Uh, not that the British were either.

It's one of the reasons the Qing court was so broke- they spent it all trying to fight frontier wars, the trade with Europeans, so long as it was bringing in silver and not, say, opium was a godsend for the court. Once that went away, things spiraled out of control, at least in the Qing imperial court- the provinces themselves(the coastal ones, anyway) seemed to do okay on the tolls the Europeans let them collect which is why they ended up fighting the Taiping rebellion and spearheaded Chinese military modernization.

Zeron
Oct 23, 2010


New dev diary, seems neat.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-2-capacities.1477662/

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


They've changed the font!

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




hello admin cap from stellaris, what are you doing here

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018


This is all one big thing.


Charlz Guybon posted:

I think literally every other time I've ever seen this referenced it's been described as a disaster.

dooming my country to 200 years of irrelevance and colonial exploitation to own the west

DaysBefore
Jan 24, 2019



Even if it is just the Stellaris administrative cap, I don't mind. Could go further, make it so you can only build admin buildings in colonies if you have like 1% primary culture pops there or something to represent colonial bureaucrat settlers.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


ilitarist posted:

They've changed the font!

YOU CAN'T SWITCH TO SANS-SERIF FONTS YOU WILL REGRET THIS!!!

(no, I actually really like the sans serif font even if the immersion of "being a Victorian aristocrat squinting at newspapers" is lessened a bit. It makes it so easy to read)

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that


Even if functionally this works very similarly to mana, I like the capacity approach a ton better. It feels more connected to the game world, and isn't a hard on/off system

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




I've always felt this kind of capacity system is more satisfying than saving up a pile of ??? and spending it on a thing.

That said, I'm not totally sold on the implications of "authority." I get the idea of letting the player do more things the more centralized their state is, but with the "road maintenance" example I'm not sure authoritarian states should really be presented as more effective at doing things. How good were Czarist Russian roads? I guess the balance could be that Russia has way more things they need to do with their authority because their society is falling apart.

Alternately it would be fine if the effect was only a bonus to represent shifting resources and, for instance, a workers council would maintain their own roads without player input, at the cost of not giving the player a choice in the matter.

The more I think about it, the more I may be worrying about nothing, depending on implementation, but I saw "road maintenance" and thought about the old myth of fascists making trains run on time and it rubbed me the wrong way.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


DrSunshine posted:


(no, I actually really like the sans serif font even if the immersion of "being a Victorian aristocrat squinting at newspapers" is lessened a bit. It makes it so easy to read)

Fonts are a big thing for me and it's a tragedy that only only Imperator and CK3 have high quality font rendering. Before Stellaris PDX didn't seem to think about fonts at all. Those games have a lot of reading and color-coding. I hoped they'd go for a lightly-stylized but readable font like CK3 - it's kinda stylized but still simple and readable. Maybe something like Bookerly would work for V3. But sans-serif is very strange decision, yeah.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Eiba posted:

Alternately it would be fine if the effect was only a bonus to represent shifting resources and, for instance, a workers council would maintain their own roads without player input, at the cost of not giving the player a choice in the matter.

There's a dev quote which clarifies that this is basically what is happening there.

Wiz
May 16, 2004



Nap Ghost

Eiba posted:

I've always felt this kind of capacity system is more satisfying than saving up a pile of ??? and spending it on a thing.

That said, I'm not totally sold on the implications of "authority." I get the idea of letting the player do more things the more centralized their state is, but with the "road maintenance" example I'm not sure authoritarian states should really be presented as more effective at doing things. How good were Czarist Russian roads? I guess the balance could be that Russia has way more things they need to do with their authority because their society is falling apart.

Alternately it would be fine if the effect was only a bonus to represent shifting resources and, for instance, a workers council would maintain their own roads without player input, at the cost of not giving the player a choice in the matter.

The more I think about it, the more I may be worrying about nothing, depending on implementation, but I saw "road maintenance" and thought about the old myth of fascists making trains run on time and it rubbed me the wrong way.

It gives you a limited set of pet projects for the ruler to act on, which are localized to states. You don't need to be fascist to have good infrastructure.

Robo-Slap
Jun 5, 2011


I could see this being better than admin capacity in Stellaris. Since admin is used for pops and districts in Stellaris, and you always want more pops and the equivalent number of districts, the optimum choice is always to build another admin building in your admin planet. So you're not making a real decision.

Here you have the choice of either increasing generation or reducing upkeep. Maybe the best move in a certain situation is to remove a law or whatever instead of devoting more pops to administration.

Will have to see how it works in practice though.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:


Kaza42 posted:

Even if functionally this works very similarly to mana, I like the capacity approach a ton better. It feels more connected to the game world, and isn't a hard on/off system
Yeah. I mean, we haven't actually tried it, but it seems like this level of abstraction might actually work pretty well for EU5 too. No need to go super deep, but expanding all these capacities over the course of the game - while also expanding the ways you can use them - would do a lot to sell the idea of growing state power.

Eiba posted:

I've always felt this kind of capacity system is more satisfying than saving up a pile of ??? and spending it on a thing.

That said, I'm not totally sold on the implications of "authority." I get the idea of letting the player do more things the more centralized their state is, but with the "road maintenance" example I'm not sure authoritarian states should really be presented as more effective at doing things. How good were Czarist Russian roads? I guess the balance could be that Russia has way more things they need to do with their authority because their society is falling apart.

Alternately it would be fine if the effect was only a bonus to represent shifting resources and, for instance, a workers council would maintain their own roads without player input, at the cost of not giving the player a choice in the matter.

The more I think about it, the more I may be worrying about nothing, depending on implementation, but I saw "road maintenance" and thought about the old myth of fascists making trains run on time and it rubbed me the wrong way.
I think you have to consider the interest groups here. Just because you CAN decree a bunch of poo poo doesn't mean everyone is gonna just accept it. Something as simple as passing something by decree resulting in a greater negative reaction (and possibly a smaller positive one) compared to passing it through slightly less autocratic means might do a lot to not make the game have a pro-autocracy slant in terms of mechanics. On top of that, authority being that centralized should arguable undermine your ability to build up a bureaucracy to some degree, which could result in longer-term issues that haunt the state well after the autocrat has been forced to relinquish power.

Of course if you manage to balance things well, authority should be extremely powerful in terms of carrying out specific visions. Stalin's rule probably couldn't have been replicated in the Third Republic.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Wiz posted:

It gives you a limited set of pet projects for the ruler to act on, which are localized to states. You don't need to be fascist to have good infrastructure.
Okay, cool. That makes sense. I do like the systems that let the player feel the same influences as historical leaders. The idea that certain things need to get done, so we can't let people be voting on them, is certainly an immersive historical perspective.

Still feels like a touchy thing to balance. If it's too useful compared the the alternative it would seem like an inadvertent endorsement of authoritarianism/critique of political liberalism, much as Vic2 was an inadvertent critique of free markets because left to their own devices capitalists are clipper obsessed idiots, and therefore state capitalism is a straight up good thing.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



ilitarist posted:

Fonts are a big thing for me and it's a tragedy that only only Imperator and CK3 have high quality font rendering. Before Stellaris PDX didn't seem to think about fonts at all. Those games have a lot of reading and color-coding. I hoped they'd go for a lightly-stylized but readable font like CK3 - it's kinda stylized but still simple and readable. Maybe something like Bookerly would work for V3. But sans-serif is very strange decision, yeah.

Shameful HoI3 font erasure in this post

SOVIET UIOI

und nie vergessen

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jun 3, 2021

Takanago
Jun 2, 2007

You'll see...


I'm curious as to why collecting consumption taxes on Liquor is costing authority. Does it always cost authority to collect consumption taxes? Is that because it's managing a trade good, or do all forms of taxation require authority? If anarchist societies don't generate authority, does this mean they can't effectively collect taxes?

e: I feel like I'm making an incorrect assumption somewhere in here but I'm curious exactly where

Takanago fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jun 3, 2021

pdxjohan
Sep 9, 2011

Paradox dev dude.


JosefStalinator posted:

In Vicky 1, you could manually promote entire populations into soldiers, then make units from those soldier populations. You could use those specific units on suicide missions until you destroyed the entire population of a state or whatever.

Ah yes... dont forget also getting severe carpal tunnel syndrme from doing it.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



pdxjohan posted:

Ah yes... dont forget also getting severe carpal tunnel syndrme from doing it.

i thought that was a feature

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold



pdxjohan posted:

Ah yes... dont forget also getting severe carpal tunnel syndrme from doing it.

so when i eventually need surgery to fix this i can just bill you guys right?

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


I'll be interested to see if people find this better-feeling than saving up points which you then spend, given that it's effectively the same thing.

"Save up points -> spend points on laws" is pretty much the same as "Enact laws -> laws take effect over time", in both cases you're delaying the implementation of the laws.

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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



I enjoyed the DD and concept of capacities, not 100% on the authority using "roads" as an example even after Wiz's clarification. If building roads directly through authority is only one way to construct them, how would say the other extreme of an anarcho-communist country build roads? The game is clearly moving away from the bad system of "free market capitalism means a bad AI runs things" but how will low authority countries then build stuff?

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