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Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

cerebral posted:

The glaring weakness of the poleaxe for me is its special. 87 against a knight when the polehammer special does 150? gently caress that noise. All the damage values (minus the stab) feel just a bit under-tuned. Honestly it may be the weapon that I find the most disappointing.

Yeah that stands out as well because of my vague casual feelings on "weapon feel", because of it being in the odd category of weapons with a special attack as bad or worse than their normal attacks. To bring it back to the two-handed hammer, that has a stronger special against vanguards than the pole axe too, and the heavy overhand is just as strong as the pole axe heavy thrust/overhand.

Which also stands out no matter how many times people say "But the (slow, heavy) thrust on the pole axe is good!". I know that I get more mileage out of the slightly weaker executioner axe heavy thrust nobody seems to expect to be good damage because of how swing to win aesthetic it is.

The tiny hatchet is in the "Special attack is WEAKER than the heavy attack" club, but it is a tiny little murder machine I would bet on over a pole axe.

Speaking of surprisingly bad special attacks on "But if you treat it like a sword, then-" weapons. The Glaive also has a special attack problem unique to vanguards. I could swear the leaping vanguard only special is something like, 20 damage tops? But that is clearly a bug rather than by design... hopefully.

EDIT: Pick axe is the weapon I am currently most disappointed by.

"Okay so it lists 'stronger special' but it is only as strong as it's own heavy attack. Which in turn is weaker than a sledge heavy attack (or shovel attack). It has a chop bonus vs footmen but deals little baby knife slash five hits to kill damage against footmen with the light swing. It just... why is this so poo poo?" "...Well, it has a faster-" "I get the feeling that is just as much of a letdown as it also claiming to have a 'strong special'"

Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 6, 2021

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Exodee
Mar 29, 2011


cerebral posted:

The glaring weakness of the poleaxe for me is its special. 87 against a knight when the polehammer special does 150? gently caress that noise. All the damage values (minus the stab) feel just a bit under-tuned. Honestly it may be the weapon that I find the most disappointing.
Whenever someone tries using a special against me they'll be awarded with a free heavy attack on the noggin, they're way too risky to use against anyone that's paying attention. (well okay, I'll admit I'm sometimes bewildered by the audacity of them trying it in the first place when we're in a duel :v:)
As far as damage goes, think of it as the missing link between the longsword and the messer and its damage values start making a lot more sense. Besides, as long as you land one overhead or stab (against a knight) it's three hits to kill all classes, which is fine. With the heavy mace for example it's the same, except you have to land at least one overhead. (against vanguards, ironically)

Section Z posted:

Which also stands out no matter how many times people say "But the (slow, heavy) thrust on the pole axe is good!". I know that I get more mileage out of the slightly weaker executioner axe heavy thrust nobody seems to expect to be good damage because of how swing to win aesthetic it is.
Both the thrust AND the overhead do more damage, it's just the slash that does less. And while its thrust is on the slow side, it's really easy to drag around and has a shitton of active hit-frames. I often find that I hit opponents well after I thought my attack animation was finished.
I can understand being dissapointed that it doesn't act much like an axe though. Personally I think there's already too many axes in the game, (the battle axe and war axe are really similar, for example) so I like how different the pole-axe is.

Krogort
Oct 27, 2013


I want to like the footman but I am terrible with both the halberd style weapons and the shield.
I do OK with the longsword, Dane axe and battle axe but I canít figure out why I suck so much with slow weapons.

Exodee
Mar 29, 2011


Krogort posted:

I want to like the footman but I am terrible with both the halberd style weapons and the shield.
I do OK with the longsword, Dane axe and battle axe but I canít figure out why I suck so much with slow weapons.
If you're good with the longsword, then the footman's "sword" is really similar. It does slightly less stab/heavy damage and is obviously a tiny bit shorter, but that's about it.
You can put your shield away by selecting your current weapon a second time, (or you could throw it I guess :v:) but I don't think having a shield is ever a negative? I could be wrong, but shields don't slow you down like they did in Chiv 1, so they're basically a straight blocking buff.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


Try the 2-h spear, focusing on stabs. And also running around sprint attacking into people. It's long reach and fast attacks will probably work well for you if you're bad with slow weapons.

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



Exodee posted:

If you're good with the longsword, then the footman's "sword" is really similar. It does slightly less stab/heavy damage and is obviously a tiny bit shorter, but that's about it.
You can put your shield away by selecting your current weapon a second time, (or you could throw it I guess :v:) but I don't think having a shield is ever a negative? I could be wrong, but shields don't slow you down like they did in Chiv 1, so they're basically a straight blocking buff.

Shields do have a slight disadvantage in that they block out some of your FoV in first person (more noticeable for Knight's giant shield), but that's really about it. But even then that's generally very much worth it even just for the passive protection from archers.

DeadFatDuckFat
Oct 29, 2012

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


You also get the short stun when the shield breaks, so just throw it when it starts looking beat up

Fucking Moron
Jan 9, 2009



I have a confession to make. When all the archers on my team refuse to get on the objective and are going to cost us the round I tend to set them all on fire.

Schneider Inside Her
Aug 6, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

Set em on fire anyway they're disgusting

beggar
Mar 6, 2008

Smoking Makes You Impotent



Archers do look slightly less shameful when set ablaze

HukHukHuk
Jun 27, 2011

I am the sound of cats and hairballs.


Battlecrying with food lets you chow down, 30 health is a fun prize for watching your mans take a bite out of an entire cabbage

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



HukHukHuk posted:

Battlecrying with food lets you chow down, 30 health is a fun prize for watching your mans take a bite out of an entire cabbage

Note: This does not seem to work with the heads of decapitated enemies. :orks101:

Worf
Sep 12, 2017




Perestroika posted:

Note: This does not seem to work with the heads of decapitated enemies. :orks101:

bug, not a featuer

rain dogs
Apr 19, 2020



If there's an archer playing well off the objective I like to give them a lovetap as I run by.


Idk why but I've been running long hammers on all 3 classes lately. They're not the best but very satisfying

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


So I just had a match with the peasants defending the remaining soldiers turn into the peasants killing the survivors to get the match over with faster. Pretty funny.

Babe Magnet
Jun 1, 2008


if there's an archer bleeding out on the ground I always make sure to take some time out to watch them die while they punch me for not reviving them

Jarmak
Jan 24, 2005

Please look at this photo every time you support or defend war crimes. Thank you.


Just played two rounds where it was a miserable slog because the enemy team had a coordinated crossbow line, but then won because they couldn't kill the heir.

3 crossbow dudes plus a guy with a shield guarding them is miserable to fight, double so when they did poo poo like get high ground and line up their pavise shields on the stairs

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

Just played two rounds where it was a miserable slog because the enemy team had a coordinated crossbow line, but then won because they couldn't kill the heir.

3 crossbow dudes plus a guy with a shield guarding them is miserable to fight, double so when they did poo poo like get high ground and line up their pavise shields on the stairs
There is exactly one thing I get for real mad about regarding enemy archers, and that is "Why don't archers deal bonus damage to other longbow/crossbowmen?" every time I land the first body shot and then the universe bends over backwards to block my follow up shots before something kills me.

As much because of how the Javelin reload is so deliberately gently caress you garbage that if you don't nail that headshot arc, a longbowman can shoot you 2-3 times while you are locked in your helpless T pose reload phase (not that the skirmisher shield seems to do much good against arrows anyways). The fact Javelin is a very specific "85 damage, not quite enough to kill an archer without a headshot teehee" just rubs it in.

Grinding up throwing axe levels on Skirmisher so they would look pretty on the knight faster was it's own special brand of cartoonish parody in that regard with my bad luck having it merely down archers instead of outright kill them on top :argh:

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010



Big lol that they're removing the short spear because it's unfun to play against but leave archers in.

Schneider Inside Her
Aug 6, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

The short spear is so hard to play against. I just can't do anything against the stab spam. I'll be glad to see the back of it. At least with archers you get the satisfaction of running them down and murdering them

TorakFade
Oct 3, 2006

I strongly disapprove



Schneider Inside Her posted:

The short spear is so hard to play against. I just can't do anything against the stab spam. I'll be glad to see the back of it. At least with archers you get the satisfaction of running them down and murdering them

it pisses me off greatly that most times, archers are also very good at melee - when I manage to reach them, they just whip out a secondary and kick my rear end. Guys if you're good with swords GO STICK ENEMIES WITH THEM instead of plinking away to get the most kills, drat it :argh:

incidentally I want to unlock the crossbowman but longbow archery bores me, would it be feasible to just toss the bow when spawning and grab a decent weapon off the ground, or the lower health means I'd just be dying instantly? (I still haven't figured how not to get hit :dumb: )

Babe Magnet
Jun 1, 2008


give me the War of the Roses gun

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

TorakFade posted:

it pisses me off greatly that most times, archers are also very good at melee - when I manage to reach them, they just whip out a secondary and kick my rear end. Guys if you're good with swords GO STICK ENEMIES WITH THEM instead of plinking away to get the most kills, drat it :argh:

incidentally I want to unlock the crossbowman but longbow archery bores me, would it be feasible to just toss the bow when spawning and grab a decent weapon off the ground, or the lower health means I'd just be dying instantly? (I still haven't figured how not to get hit :dumb: )
Use the hatchet instead of a shortsword to attain enlightenment. Remember to use the nuclear heavy overhand instead of the reduced weaker damage special attack.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


TorakFade posted:


incidentally I want to unlock the crossbowman but longbow archery bores me, would it be feasible to just toss the bow when spawning and grab a decent weapon off the ground, or the lower health means I'd just be dying instantly? (I still haven't figured how not to get hit :dumb: )
This is how I played until skirmisher. Get crossbowman unlocked and use that (the banner will get you more points to level faster) and it doesn't take too long. You get some decent secondaries too.

Playing objectives helps a lot too.

Schneider Inside Her
Aug 6, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

I noticed when fighting archers in melee they pretty much have to play the counter game because they can't block very much at all. So if you morph your slashes into stabs you will usually kill them, or they will lose their weapon.

I know what you mean, though. There's an archer on the servers I play on that tops the boards and when you get close to them they run away, and if you manage to corner them they will normally just kill you. They have no resilience, though: I've noticed that whenever I've got a few kills on them, they quit the server.

Jarmak
Jan 24, 2005

Please look at this photo every time you support or defend war crimes. Thank you.


Section Z posted:

There is exactly one thing I get for real mad about regarding enemy archers, and that is "Why don't archers deal bonus damage to other longbow/crossbowmen?" every time I land the first body shot and then the universe bends over backwards to block my follow up shots before something kills me.

As much because of how the Javelin reload is so deliberately gently caress you garbage that if you don't nail that headshot arc, a longbowman can shoot you 2-3 times while you are locked in your helpless T pose reload phase (not that the skirmisher shield seems to do much good against arrows anyways). The fact Javelin is a very specific "85 damage, not quite enough to kill an archer without a headshot teehee" just rubs it in.

Grinding up throwing axe levels on Skirmisher so they would look pretty on the knight faster was it's own special brand of cartoonish parody in that regard with my bad luck having it merely down archers instead of outright kill them on top :argh:


TorakFade posted:

it pisses me off greatly that most times, archers are also very good at melee - when I manage to reach them, they just whip out a secondary and kick my rear end. Guys if you're good with swords GO STICK ENEMIES WITH THEM instead of plinking away to get the most kills, drat it :argh:

incidentally I want to unlock the crossbowman but longbow archery bores me, would it be feasible to just toss the bow when spawning and grab a decent weapon off the ground, or the lower health means I'd just be dying instantly? (I still haven't figured how not to get hit :dumb: )

Yeah the short sword is actually a pretty awesome weapon in it's own right and the only real disadvantage to the archers is their health pool. I don't play archer very often but when I do I was running around shooting bolts from the second rank and stepping up to fill gaps with my secondary (my weapon XP at the end was usually pretty 50/50 between the crossbow and the melee weapon).

Shooting into the melee is pretty gross if you time your shots to miss your friends instead of aiming to hit your enemy. I've found that usually when a friendly moves out of the way an enemy quickly fills the gap. Crossbow is good for this because of it's instant release, the longbow and javelins take too long to fire so you're just as likely to hit a friendly because everything shifts again before your shot actually gets off.

Javelins should 100% either get their damage increased, or get a bonus against archers; there's no reason they shouldn't one-shot.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

Yeah the short sword is actually a pretty awesome weapon in it's own right and the only real disadvantage to the archers is their health pool. I don't play archer very often but when I do I was running around shooting bolts from the second rank and stepping up to fill gaps with my secondary (my weapon XP at the end was usually pretty 50/50 between the crossbow and the melee weapon).

Shooting into the melee is pretty gross if you time your shots to miss your friends instead of aiming to hit your enemy. I've found that usually when a friendly moves out of the way an enemy quickly fills the gap. Crossbow is good for this because of it's instant release, the longbow and javelins take too long to fire so you're just as likely to hit a friendly because everything shifts again before your shot actually gets off.

Javelins should 100% either get their damage increased, or get a bonus against archers; there's no reason they shouldn't one-shot.
Archers having poo poo stamina is also ties into Javelins needing some love and clearly suffering all of the pre-launch "But what if spear TOO GOOD :ohdear:" whipping boy pains.

Javelins takes 1/3 of their bar to throw one, and 1/2 their bar to use their special attack that deals all of fifty damage :geno: So when you casually block an enemy skirmisher throwing a javelin at you they are either open to chop their loving head off/throw two dane axes at them due to the huge recovery time, or will get stamina crushed in short order if they have any time to block.

... Oh my loving god, I just realized the Javelin is also in the "Only as strong/weaker than heavy attacks", heavy swing is as strong as the poo poo special, heavy overhand and thrust are stronger :sigh: At this point I'm most thankful to internet numbers not for fishing for "The best numbers". But for all of the moments of "No you are not crazy, the special attack on X really is kind of poo poo." letting me get better mileage out of weapons you need to ignore people saying "Well actually it is OP!" in game chat to get the most out of.

See also, the "TECHNICALLY it deals more damage than a heavy attack... +8 more damage against a knight than the heavy attack. Wow!" Morning star. Which I went from struggling with to a nonstop killing spree with by admitting the special and thrust are incredibly poo poo in spite of the nature of the weapon implying ("A blunt class sharp ball of spikes should have better thrusting damage against a knight than a flat blunt weapon, right?") or outright claiming they would be stronger than average (Strong special attack trait). At least that weapon is overall good enough to make up for it's shortcomings.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jul 7, 2021

Schneider Inside Her
Aug 6, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

This game is too loving fun hey. It's all I want to do. When I have to go to work I'm angry, because at no point in my job do I explode heads with a battle axe

dog nougat
Apr 8, 2009

Cawtion Ham


Well I did it. Got 50 kills in a match. Granted it was on a server that was just me and bots essentially. Basically just ran around spamming heavy slash with the dane axe. Have gotten so drat close several times, like 48-49 kills and then the timer runs out or the other team ekes out a win at the last moment. I'll take it. Now just gotta grind out bread kills

bees everywhere
Nov 18, 2002



Looks like one of my teammates found a short-cut:
https://i.imgur.com/DNq4KGL.mp4

Hard to tell but it looks like he actually survived

VulgarandStupid
Aug 5, 2003
I AM, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, UNFUCKABLE AND A TOTAL DISAPPOINTMENT TO EVERYONE. DAE WANNA CUM PLAY WITH ME!?


bees everywhere posted:

Looks like one of my teammates found a short-cut:
https://i.imgur.com/DNq4KGL.mp4

Hard to tell but it looks like he actually survived

It does like 30% of your health. Itís a pretty well known feature.

Nordick
Sep 3, 2011

Yes.


bees everywhere posted:

Looks like one of my teammates found a short-cut:
https://i.imgur.com/DNq4KGL.mp4

Hard to tell but it looks like he actually survived

Looks to me he survived for about half a second, before the stone caught up.

dog nougat
Apr 8, 2009

Cawtion Ham


drat, been loving around with the 2-handed spear on footman class. It's special charge attack is sweet af.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


dog nougat posted:

drat, been loving around with the 2-handed spear on footman class. It's special charge attack is sweet af.

The poleman gets that charge attack with all of their weapons. Oddly, because of how the damage works, that charge does more damage to knights/footmen with the halberd (and probably the polehammer, I need to try it again and maybe wean off my need to have attacks carry through opponents).

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

dog nougat posted:

drat, been loving around with the 2-handed spear on footman class. It's special charge attack is sweet af.

Ravenfood posted:

The poleman gets that charge attack with all of their weapons. Oddly, because of how the damage works, that charge does more damage to knights/footmen with the halberd (and probably the polehammer, I need to try it again and maybe wean off my need to have attacks carry through opponents).
You feel it most with the spear because it has the most "oh this is stronger than the regular attack?" because it is +20ish damage over the heavy instead of "...is that a MINUS two damage?" like the polehammer charge. It is also the one that deals the most damage to vanguards of the four polearm charges. Which I expect goes a long way to why most of the in game longspear rage I see is coming from swing to win vanguards and (so far) I have yet to see a knight start screaming about it in chat.

Also, don't forget the poleman can do the knight tackle. I started leaning into that not just because of my terrible luck with the weapon charge glitching so my weapon harmlessly sticks through their back for two seconds. But also because of the above mentioned fact that the pole hammer (And halberd) charges don't do meaningfully more damage than a heavy attack. So now I often shove em to the ground for a bit of damage then hope for the best with the follow up, knight with an executioner axe style.

Shame the tackle causes some kind of cooldown on your special attacks. Imagine following up a tackle with the polehammer special swing :allears:

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


I cannot for the life of me get the timing on the tackle down, especially as the knight. Also, it's bullshit thay the MAA doesn't get it since it seems like such an obvious choice given their shield.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Ravenfood posted:

I cannot for the life of me get the timing on the tackle down, especially as the knight. Also, it's bullshit thay the MAA doesn't get it since it seems like such an obvious choice given their shield.
For what it is worth, both the tackle and charge seem janky as hell not in your favor. There is a lot of cases of bouncing off thin air charging across less than even ground, and like my adventures with kick physics can warp you through an enemy with his back to a spike wall to impale yourself to death :argh: I can go from a dozen smooth tackles in a row to it being a complete poo poo show.

Basically, try to start slightly earlier than you think, and if you are within the same zipcode as a teammate it will hit them at 90 degrees and deflect you rather than the enemy right in front of you. Also you are not able to do it with the shield lifted, so get ready to eat a dane axe to the face if you are dead set on tackling a vanguard who sees you coming.

It is more bullshit the engineer doesn't get the tackle because at least the footman has a shield and dodge bonus, while engineer just gets people screaming at them their only joy in life is overpowered while their walls and spikes self destruct from an invisible timer just in time for the next wave of enemies :v:

Roumba
Jun 29, 2005


Buglord

How do banners work? Sometimes they heal and sometimes they just don't. What gives?

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!



Roumba posted:

How do banners work? Sometimes they heal and sometimes they just don't. What gives?

Apparently if you die they stop working but don't fall apart. So don't die after placing one or you won't get many points

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Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


I have embraced the dual Dane Axe. There's almost always a 3rd primary lying around so that is a ton of potential ranged and melee damage.

E: I wish I could pick the skin for my second axe, or at least have the same skin apply.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jul 10, 2021

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