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jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


drrockso20 posted:

I think one thing that would be nice for them to add would be a "simplified" mode for helicopters and jets where a lot of the more complicated aspects of flying are automated(like say for Helicopters on a controller becomes essentially the same as moving or aiming while on foot and most of the stuff relating to the chopper's angles and positioning just gets handled by the computer) , cause the current way they work in these games is probably too complex and unnecessarily "realistic" for the vast majority of this franchise's intended audience(like I have a feeling if the average player has between 50 and 200 hours of play per game, they've probably only touched any air vehicles for maybe 20 minutes worth at the most while probably having several hours of usage of ground vehicles cause the former are so unfriendly in how they control)

Sure keep the more advanced controls in as an option for more skilled players, but the more average player really needs a bone thrown their way

Flight mechanics and controls for both planes and helicopters are drat near as close to accessible as they possibly can be without being a joke. It just takes practice, which in BF4 was pretty easy due to the test range and...

Zzulu posted:

I usually have very little time in air vehicles because they are always spawn camped. Like, if I want to get into a jet I have to contend with the Obsessed Jet Man who only ever goes for the jet and I just aint gonna stand around waiting for a fuckin plane to spawn when I could be out in the field already, shooting mans. Then when you finally DO get into a jet, you have so little experience with it that you can't contend with the enemy teams Obsessed Jet Man who guns you down immediately

The air controls in battlefield games are not particularly complicated as it is

...will be even easier to practice in BF2042 as there is allegedly (from streamers reports) a way to play only against bots offline.

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Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.




Symetrique posted:

Battlefield flight models arenít difficult.

The problem is the default control binds and not having a space to practice. Like I donít know anyone who doesnít immediately modify the default plane controls to something that makes more sense. Thereís really not much else to simplify unless they go with a pure mouse aim mode like swbf2 or war thunder arcade, but at that point thereís no need for more advanced options since they wouldnít give an advantage against mouseaim.

Hopefully having bots makes it easier for people who want to practice flying without getting murdered by experienced players. Bots contributing to progression should also prevent issues like bfvís kanonenvogel Stuka, where picking the wrong tier 2 upgrade hosed up your primary load out, making it harder to actually score points.

Just give the planes the same physics/controls as the starfighters from Star Wars: Squadrons. Bam, done! It's made by another EA studio so should totally be reasonable to turn a Y-Wing into an A-10 that the Pentagon never got around to decommissioning.

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


Alkydere posted:

Just give the planes the same physics/controls as the starfighters from Star Wars: Squadrons. Bam, done! It's made by another EA studio so should totally be reasonable to turn a Y-Wing into an A-10 that the Pentagon never got around to decommissioning.

The A-10 will be around for a long time. Amazingly building your plane as a workhorse tasked with carrying a gun first and foremost leads to longevity

"Chief Lt. General Arnold Bunch testified that the service ďis committed to maintaining a minimum of six A-10 combat squadrons flying and contributing to the fight through 2030 additional A-10 force structure is contingent on future budget levels and force structure requirements.Ē "

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


Symetrique posted:

Battlefield flight models aren’t difficult.

The problem is the default control binds and not having a space to practice. Like I don’t know anyone who doesn’t immediately modify the default plane controls to something that makes more sense. There’s really not much else to simplify unless they go with a pure mouse aim mode like swbf2 or war thunder arcade, but at that point there’s no need for more advanced options since they wouldn’t give an advantage against mouseaim.

Hopefully having bots makes it easier for people who want to practice flying without getting murdered by experienced players. Bots contributing to progression should also prevent issues like bfv’s kanonenvogel Stuka, where picking the wrong tier 2 upgrade hosed up your primary load out, making it harder to actually score points.

I feel the issue is there's a lot of aspects to controlling them that are completely unneeded by the average player and really don't need to be manually controlled, rolling being the big one, same with aiming up and down also affecting your aircraft's orientation and thus your forward or backwards momentum, hence my suggestion for helicopters to just work like infantry movement and aiming and altitude adjustment just being done via buttons, most other vehicles operate in simplified "arcadey" fashions so I see no reason why aircraft can't too(and I'd have no problems with the AA capabilities of infantry or ground vehicles being enhanced to combat this if it really was such a huge boost to aircraft performance)

Symetrique
Jan 1, 2013






drrockso20 posted:

I feel the issue is there's a lot of aspects to controlling them that are completely unneeded by the average player and really don't need to be manually controlled, rolling being the big one, same with aiming up and down also affecting your aircraft's orientation and thus your forward or backwards momentum, hence my suggestion for helicopters to just work like infantry movement and aiming and altitude adjustment just being done via buttons, most other vehicles operate in simplified "arcadey" fashions so I see no reason why aircraft can't too(and I'd have no problems with the AA capabilities of infantry or ground vehicles being enhanced to combat this if it really was such a huge boost to aircraft performance)

Roll isnt a complex control or thing to get your head around for planes. You can literally set up your keybinds so that you're controlling Pitch/Roll/Yaw/Throttle with only one hand on your KB. Momentum being dictated by pitch orientation is kinda what makes helicopters helicopters. BF helos arent even that complex compared to other games. Like others are saying, the biggest barrier has been not having a place to practice or not being able to progress with vehicle unlocks without getting stomped by more experienced players.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

The Islamic Orb Illuminati.

The only reason why the A-10 hasnt been decomissioned is that there literally is no enemy that america has fought since they came out with the plane that has a reliable enough anti-air system to shoot them down, so if your task is to destroy a bunch of third world APC's and Tanks it's an amazing plane.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I would have no problem with jets/helos if the AA wasnít so nerfed on all the BF games. And the fact that the planes can repair without landing etc.

Realistically a good burst from a Tunguska/Linebacker would rip any helo and most planes apart (it would wreck an a-10s day but it might be able to limp home) but always in the game it is like spitting on a car. The missiles are way too easily fooled as well. There should be an element of risk for sky gods who decides to fly down for some strafing, never knowing if one is lurking behind a building..

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


Symetrique posted:

Roll isnt a complex control or thing to get your head around for planes. You can literally set up your keybinds so that you're controlling Pitch/Roll/Yaw/Throttle with only one hand on your KB. Momentum being dictated by pitch orientation is kinda what makes helicopters helicopters. BF helos arent even that complex compared to other games. Like others are saying, the biggest barrier has been not having a place to practice or not being able to progress with vehicle unlocks without getting stomped by more experienced players.

Honestly as a counter to skygods I propose the following

Symetrique
Jan 1, 2013






jisforjosh posted:

Honestly as a counter to skygods I propose the following



Hell yeah.

I mean honestly the biggest way to limit skygods would be to just lock them to 1st person view so they couldnt pick out ground targets and check their six so easily.

Crosby B. Alfred
May 20, 2006
Cosby B. Alright

Symetrique posted:

Roll isnt a complex control or thing to get your head around for planes. You can literally set up your keybinds so that you're controlling Pitch/Roll/Yaw/Throttle with only one hand on your KB. Momentum being dictated by pitch orientation is kinda what makes helicopters helicopters. BF helos arent even that complex compared to other games. Like others are saying, the biggest barrier has been not having a place to practice or not being able to progress with vehicle unlocks without getting stomped by more experienced players.

Hold up here... are you actually recommending we use a mouse and keyboard over a Xbox Controller with PC Battlefield?

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Hold up here... are you actually recommending we use a mouse and keyboard over a Xbox Controller with PC Battlefield?

Always has been

Symetrique
Jan 1, 2013






Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Hold up here... are you actually recommending we use a mouse and keyboard over a Xbox Controller with PC Battlefield?

Not quite. I've always flown with MKB, but it mostly comes down to player preference. The top tier BF1/BFV pilots use both with no real clear advantage for dogfighting. The difference is that using MKB can give you more precision when aiming at ground targets.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



For me what made piloting helicopters click was making left stick ascend/descend and left/right tilt, while right stick was rotate left/right and up/down tilt. Basically all X/Y plane movement was in the left stick and then the right stick was my aiming/orientation

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


Scrub-Niggurath posted:

For me what made piloting helicopters click was making left stick ascend/descend and left/right tilt, while right stick was rotate left/right and up/down tilt. Basically all X/Y plane movement was in the left stick and then the right stick was my aiming/orientation

Honestly I feel there just needs to be an option to disable left/right tilt(as personally I find that to be kinda useless 99% of the time) and I'd be fine with that kind of control scheme

Symetrique posted:

Roll isnt a complex control or thing to get your head around for planes. You can literally set up your keybinds so that you're controlling Pitch/Roll/Yaw/Throttle with only one hand on your KB. Momentum being dictated by pitch orientation is kinda what makes helicopters helicopters. BF helos arent even that complex compared to other games. Like others are saying, the biggest barrier has been not having a place to practice or not being able to progress with vehicle unlocks without getting stomped by more experienced players.

I'm speaking from a console player perspective, that kind of thing is way more obnoxious to control with analog sticks than I imagine doing it with a keyboard would be

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

I've always used a joystick for flying :shobon:

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.




jisforjosh posted:

The A-10 will be around for a long time. Amazingly building your plane as a workhorse tasked with carrying a gun first and foremost leads to longevity

"Chief Lt. General Arnold Bunch testified that the service ďis committed to maintaining a minimum of six A-10 combat squadrons flying and contributing to the fight through 2030 additional A-10 force structure is contingent on future budget levels and force structure requirements.Ē "

I mean it also helps that the design process for the thing was "Durable, survivable plane that murders the gently caress out of tanks" and there wasn't what we had with the F-35 with the Navy demanding "We want some so it must land on Carriers" while the Marines screamed "VTOL!" around a mouthful of crayons.

Oh and it was built as a flying loving tank.


Al-Saqr posted:

The only reason why the A-10 hasnt been decomissioned is that there literally is no enemy that america has fought since they came out with the plane that has a reliable enough anti-air system to shoot them down, so if your task is to destroy a bunch of third world APC's and Tanks it's an amazing plane.

And this to. I think they were originally designed to basically strafe tank and supply columns of Russians invading Europe via the Khyber Pass in Cold War days. It had some laughably low estimate of survivability, like they expected to lose 1/3 of the planes they sent out with each attack. Then the USSR collapsed and now it's an excellent "Let's gently caress up poo poo over there" plane.

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


drrockso20 posted:

Honestly I feel there just needs to be an option to disable left/right tilt(as personally I find that to be kinda useless 99% of the time) and I'd be fine with that kind of control scheme

Tilt/roll is literally required for dogfighting with turns in jets and for circle strafing as a helicopter

Snuffman
May 21, 2004



Grimey Drawer

Foehammer007 posted:

titanfall so good, I heard its pretty riddled with hackers now though

Apparently its just one guy DoS-ing the Titanfall 1 servers, rendering it completely unplayable. Matches won't even start.

TF2 is fine, I was playing it the other day.


This seems...not plausible. More likely they'll just do the launcher thing like they did for 4/1/Hardline where you can just load each game from one place.

EDIT: drat it. Reinstalling BF4.

Symetrique
Jan 1, 2013






drrockso20 posted:

Honestly I feel there just needs to be an option to disable left/right tilt(as personally I find that to be kinda useless 99% of the time) and I'd be fine with that kind of control scheme

I'm speaking from a console player perspective, that kind of thing is way more obnoxious to control with analog sticks than I imagine doing it with a keyboard would be

I mean, PC players who use gamepads dont have a problem with it. Roll on a helo is what enables you to strafe and make turns though...


SpartanIvy posted:

I've always used a joystick for flying :shobon:

I don't think 1/V had joystick support, '42 probably wont.

Inspector Hound
Jul 14, 2003



You can pull some incredible maneuvers with the little scout helicopter and even the big transport if you can get used to rolling left and right. It's a side to side dodge, it tightens up turns tremendously, and you can do a barrel roll if you're high up enough.

e I can't specifically recall if being upside down instantly kills any of your passengers who bail out, but I hope it does

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set



Lmao at people still still jerking off over the A-10

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.




Julius CSAR posted:

Lmao at people still still jerking off over the A-10

I'm amazed the thing is still around.

And to be honest, I think people mainly jerk off over the gun. Which to be fair is a gun that deserves to be jerked off too.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

hope you're doing well


Hopper posted:

This may sound like a good idea if you are looking to pilot a helo, but making them easier to fly would be a miserable time for everybody else because littlebirds have always been OP.

If the skill needed to fly them properly drops to "anybody can do it" that would exacerbate the problem even more.

So if they did that, they would also need to provide effective countermeasures or nerf the guns and then the crying from the skies would be deafening.

If they made an effective infantry AA weapon that wasn't a total drat joke to avoid it would really be better for everyone

Crosby B. Alfred
May 20, 2006
Cosby B. Alright

I don't know if it's just me but I found nearly every AA gun incredibly weak in the game with the exception of Battlefield 1.

It's like shooting nerf balls at planes and infantry.

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set



Alkydere posted:

I'm amazed the thing is still around.

And to be honest, I think people mainly jerk off over the gun. Which to be fair is a gun that deserves to be jerked off too.

Itís super funny because they donít really shoot the gun that much in combat

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

The thing is the A-10 was reportedly designed for strafing a fulda gap stuffed with advancing soviet armor, but modern russian mbts can actually kinda resist the 30mm du rounds so I guess they're less useful now, but as long as we have them we'll find a use for a cannon with wings that can fly low and slow and turn almost anything into swiss cheese and carry big bombs to boot, which means they'll be in videogames for a long time to come. Long after the last A-10 is out of commission and the climate catastrophe resource wars are fought entirely with drones we'll still be making desert storm videogames where we fly A-10s just like we make WW2 videogames today.

Or in other words...

Julius CSAR posted:

Lmao at people still still jerking off over the A-10




drrockso20 posted:

I think one thing that would be nice for them to add would be a "simplified" mode for helicopters and jets where a lot of the more complicated aspects of flying are automated(like say for Helicopters on a controller becomes essentially the same as moving or aiming while on foot and most of the stuff relating to the chopper's angles and positioning just gets handled by the computer)

Hopper posted:

This may sound like a good idea if you are looking to pilot a helo, but making them easier to fly would be a miserable time for everybody else because littlebirds have always been OP.

Alkydere posted:

Just give the planes the same physics/controls as the starfighters from Star Wars: Squadrons. Bam, done! It's made by another EA studio so should totally be reasonable to turn a Y-Wing into an A-10 that the Pentagon never got around to decommissioning.
Yeah making the default air controls on PC virtual joysticks like in Battlefront would be great, and make the current controls the advanced ones. I don't think it would make the littlebird more OP because the current momentum based controls are what make it OP and let it pull off all the advanced maneuvers, an easy control scheme where it controls like the COD Warzone littlebird would effectively nerf it, which is good.

If they really want to nerf littlebirds though they should let us Dark Knight them with ziplines :getin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-zdkywH1U

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

I don't know if it's just me but I found nearly every AA gun incredibly weak in the game with the exception of Battlefield 1.

It's like shooting nerf balls at planes and infantry.

Absolutely. Itís really lovely how bad the AA options are when in reality any aircraft coming within a certain range of ground forces would be absolutely killed IRL. Hell, even flying low and slow near soldiers with MGs would be a huge risk and it just takes one lucky round hitting something important..

The a10 and attack helicopters were designed with ďsurvivabilityĒ in mind which does NOT mean they are nigh invulnerable. They just donít usually explode instantly like other planes would and could possibly make it back to base (in hella rough shape, the A10 landing gear was designed so it could land to minimize damage to the plane if the hydraulics were out and the gear couldnít deploy etc)

Stuff like the F35 or J20 should just get wrecked from a single good hit.

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006


Snuffman posted:


This seems...not plausible. More likely they'll just do the launcher thing like they did for 4/1/Hardline where you can just load each game from one place.

EDIT: drat it. Reinstalling BF4.

That isn't a whole game mode that needs a full studio to implement

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set



The United States posted:

The thing is the A-10 was reportedly designed for strafing a fulda gap stuffed with advancing soviet armor

No it wasnít. It was designed to shoot them with lots and lots of AGM-65 Mavericks.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.




Julius CSAR posted:

Itís super funny because they donít really shoot the gun that much in combat

I mean it's understandable: the vulcan is a monster and has to be hell on the airframe, and the military has all sorts of other fun toys that can be mounted to the wings. When the Soviets tried to make their own version the guns they built actually had a higher thrust than its engines and can actually put itself in a stall if they fire for too long.

Excellent for morale of the troops though which is it's own value.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

I don't know if it's just me but I found nearly every AA gun incredibly weak in the game with the exception of Battlefield 1.

It's like shooting nerf balls at planes and infantry.

The Pom-Poms still had a max range so skygods could just stay at the ceiling. It's just the plane's weapons weren't all that good at that range so if they actually wanted to get a decent number of kills even bombers had to come within range. Also BF1 planes were giant bloated balls of HP that were mainly balanced out by the fact their engines or wings could be damaged: causing a potential loss of control followed by a case of terminal lithobraking.

Also the pilot/crew were completely exposed. I actually managed to get a couple K-Bullet headshots on low-flying pilots (usually while trying to aim for the engine)

DrPop
Aug 22, 2004




I could easily shoot down tens of A-10s with a simple PKM

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


Snuffman posted:

This seems...not plausible. More likely they'll just do the launcher thing like they did for 4/1/Hardline where you can just load each game from one place.



A launcher hub being described this way and taking the entirety of DICE LA makes no sense

Alkydere posted:

The Pom-Poms still had a max range so skygods could just stay at the ceiling. It's just the plane's weapons weren't all that good at that range so if they actually wanted to get a decent number of kills even bombers had to come within range. Also BF1 planes were giant bloated balls of HP that were mainly balanced out by the fact their engines or wings could be damaged: causing a potential loss of control followed by a case of terminal lithobraking.

Also the pilot/crew were completely exposed. I actually managed to get a couple K-Bullet headshots on low-flying pilots (usually while trying to aim for the engine)

Late game BF1 actually had some decent air balance if only due to the Burton LMR for Supports having incendiary rounds that could disable plane parts near instantly. The Heavy Bomber went from brutally unbalanced to unbalanced annoyance

jisforjosh fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jun 12, 2021

Foehammer007
Dec 7, 2011

It was a solid five minutes of "high sticking" on comms.




How is flying compared to Arma? I've only tried flying on Arma

jisforjosh
Jun 6, 2006

"It's J is for...you know what? Fuck it, jizz it is"


Foehammer007 posted:

How is flying compared to Arma? I've only tried flying on Arma

Default for BF4 is

Throttle - W/S
Yaw - A/D
Pitch and Roll - Mouse

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set



Alkydere posted:

I mean it's understandable: the vulcan is a monster and has to be hell on the airframe, and the military has all sorts of other fun toys that can be mounted to the wings. When the Soviets tried to make their own version the guns they built actually had a higher thrust than its engines and can actually put itself in a stall if they fire for too long.

the A-10 uses the Avenger not the Vulcan, and the risk to the airframe is from other people shooting at you because you have to get low and slow to use the gun, not from the gun causing much stress on the airframe itself. That was an issue for the Soviets with the Gsh-6-30, which had to be mounted obliquely on the MiG-27 to compensate for recoil, and caused lots of airframe stress issues, but that was mainly due to how it was mounted externally on the bottom of the aircraft.

As for the stalling out thing, no. Theoretically on the A-10, maybe, but youíd run out of ammo and/or the gun would overheat first.

Keep in mind the MiG-27 is a supersonic jet (as opposed to a VERY subsonic A-10) with variable sweep wings and an engine with an afterburner. Not gun recoil is going to cause that to stall.

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set




CAS is a mission not a platform and this absolutely dumb as gently caress dude

Node
May 20, 2001

KICKED IN THE COOTER
:dings:

Taco Defender

Julius CSAR posted:

CAS is a mission not a platform and this absolutely dumb as gently caress dude

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



jisforjosh posted:

Late game BF1 actually had some decent air balance if only due to the Burton LMR for Supports having incendiary rounds that could disable plane parts near instantly. The Heavy Bomber went from brutally unbalanced to unbalanced annoyance

Donít forget the AA rocket cannon

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Julius CSAR posted:

No it wasnít. It was designed to shoot them with lots and lots of AGM-65 Mavericks.
"Reportedly" may be doing a lot of work there but this is absolutely how the justification for the giant gun with wings has been sold to the public for decades






Julius CSAR posted:

CAS is a mission not a platform and this absolutely dumb as gently caress dude
All A10 memes are dumb but I'm pretty sure the dude on the left is not supposed to be correct

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Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Switches Set



The United States posted:

"Reportedly" may be doing a lot of work there but this is absolutely how the justification for the giant gun with wings has been sold to the public for decades



All A10 memes are dumb but I'm pretty sure the dude on the left is not supposed to be correct



Actually the dude on the left is correct though? Answer me this question, what is the point of getting slow on the deck to use a big dumb gun when you can safely and far more effectively drop a 500lb JDAM from 20,000 feet from platform that can respond much quicker and stick around the area far longer than an A-10 can?

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