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Arzachel
May 12, 2012


Khanstant posted:

this seems backwards and people who suck at shooters are a bigger market to aim for than the niche of aggressive trigger pullers who value being really good at playing gun violence simulators a really specific way.

Yeah, making a competitive fps for people who hate the concept of competitive fps went real well

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Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


Arzachel posted:

Yeah, making a competitive fps for people who hate the concept of competitive fps went real well

Yes, it did extremely well. The fact that they squandered it all later doesn't change it's initial success from before they tried to go full esports on it.

Minera
Sep 26, 2007

All your friends and foes,
they thought they knew ya,
but look who's in your heart now.


Khanstant posted:

this seems backwards and people who suck at shooters are a bigger market to aim for .

not really? call of duty, battlefield, counterstrike, etc are all way bigger than any product blizzard has put out. call of duty has drummed up something like 30 billion dollars for activision. there's a reason it's not called blizzard-activision.

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


Corbeau posted:

Yes, it did extremely well. The fact that they squandered it all later doesn't change it's initial success from before they tried to go full esports on it.

You can tell yourself it was the ~evil esports~ and not people brought in by the art and character design deciding that they don't actually want to play a pvp game lmao

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Theoretically at least that's why they wanted to make a PvE mode for the sequel. They probably should've detached it from the PvP though.

lih
May 15, 2013


overwatch's decline was nothing to do with 'focusing on esports', it was just a lack of new content compared to its competitors that eventually turned into a complete content drought once they announced ow2, & a total failure to meaningfully balance the game until rather recently, which alienated people as the meta just repeatedy shifted from one over-centralising & not particularly fun optimal strategy to another over and over very slowly. just stagnation all around

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


Khanstant posted:

this seems backwards and people who suck at shooters are a bigger market to aim for than the niche of aggressive trigger pullers who value being really good at playing gun violence simulators a really specific way. blizzard spent all the post-launch patches nerfing and changing things to appease the esports competitive super gold rank whatever players. they got rid of hero dupes and nerfing the hell out of the fun classes that let bad players have fun and hang around average players and esports ragers. Sometimes deleting characters by just wiping skills or rewriting the character. I think the last time I played Mercy couldn't even resurrect anymore or some poo poo lol

they spent the games lifespan trying to appease a fundamentally unappeasable crowd of folks, in a never ending story if you give a mouse a cookie, it's going to want to get it's filthy mouse turds droppin in a glass of milk too.

Except, the first decline in player base was when they introduced Brigitte. A low-skill-ceiling hero that blew up the existing e-sport meta completely. It went from a twitch shooter with a heavy emphasis on dive to…the glorious triple-tank meta that everyone hated, pro and average player alike.

They definitely did not create Brigitte to make Overwatch League more exciting. You couldn’t tell what they were going for really. And that ties back into the actual thread topic: the dysfunction that seems to have been at the heart of Blizzard all along. They didn’t seem to know or care what they were doing because they were too busy getting smashed and going on cubicle crawls.

Good Dumplings
Mar 29, 2011

Excuse my worthless shitposting because all I can ever hope to accomplish in life is to rot away the braincells of strangers on the internet with my irredeemable brainworms.


Minrad posted:

not really? call of duty, battlefield, counterstrike, etc are all way bigger than any product blizzard has put out. call of duty has drummed up something like 30 billion dollars for activision. there's a reason it's not called blizzard-activision.

isn't the point of cod that you can basically be piss-drunk and still play? it and battlefield can be hardcore but I don't think that's what most of their audience is there for, otherwise shooters would be evolutions of quake and ut right now

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.





Good Dumplings posted:

isn't the point of cod that you can basically be piss-drunk and still play?

This applies to all games that I play.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






stev posted:

This applies to all games that I play.

:hmmyes:

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Good Dumplings posted:

isn't the point of cod that you can basically be piss-drunk and still play? it and battlefield can be hardcore but I don't think that's what most of their audience is there for, otherwise shooters would be evolutions of quake and ut right now

The general populace really likes the pseudo-realistic oorah military fps. The times that even CoD and BF have dipped into scifi stuff haven't been remotely as popular as guys in camo in a desert or a favela with m16s and ak-47s.

I don't think it's really a matter of being a serious or hardcore game, since counterstrike can be an enormously tryhard game to play and that's still ridiculously popular.

sethsez
Jul 13, 2006

He's soooo dreamy...



This is like reading people arguing whether Mario Kart 8 or Gran Turismo Sport is better and trying to illustrate the faults of one by pointing out the successes of the other.

Overwatch was fine at launch for the audience it was targeting (casual FPS players of various skill levels who appreciate a variety of play styles and like the ability to be Credit To Team even if their ability doesn't match their enthusiasm), and that turned out to be a pretty big audience. Not CoD big, but that's an absurd target to set as a standard. It eventually sucked for the same reasons every Blizzard property started to suck: a total lack of focus meant the initially-promising design got pulled in a bunch of different directions in ways that ultimately didn't please the existing fanbase and failed to draw in anyone else.

Blizzard loses confidence in their product and aimlessly tweaks it into the grave; sunrise, sunset.

Deki
May 12, 2008








HopperUK posted:

I mean a lot of people do play healers and support classes though.

The TF2 comics were really good. I feel like playing that game.

I would pay premium comic money to see the tf2 comics get a proper ending

Bioshuffle
Feb 10, 2011

No good deed goes unpunished



Is there a chance all this lawsuit stuff will affect the release schedule of Diablo 4? I wouldn't think so, but if I knew for sure, I wouldn't be asking.

External Organs
Mar 3, 2006

A cheerful person, he is known as the king of vulgarities (cursing?)

Bioshuffle posted:

Is there a chance all this lawsuit stuff will affect the release schedule of Diablo 4? I wouldn't think so, but if I knew for sure, I wouldn't be asking.

Didn't the lead producer get shitcanned? I reckon it's an extremely weird project to be working on right now.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Regalingualius posted:

Looks like he also wrote the most METAL of the Lords of War cinematics for WoD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG3RVCEwCPg

Ah yes, the halcyon days of "the brief hype period before Blizzard utterly gave up on developing WoD shortly before it even released." I don't remember, was Kargath surviving the initial encounter ever actually implemented during development, or was it just sound/dialogue files that never got used?

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Deki posted:

I would pay premium comic money to see the tf2 comics get a proper ending

I think about "I know, ja? Why does anyone go to medical school?" every time I deal with a useless doctor.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Dick Burglar posted:

Ah yes, the halcyon days of "the brief hype period before Blizzard utterly gave up on developing WoD shortly before it even released." I don't remember, was Kargath surviving the initial encounter ever actually implemented during development, or was it just sound/dialogue files that never got used?

Kargath meets you in the (actually pretty good) intro questline of WoD, which introduces the various Warlords and sets them up. You fight an arena encounter with him involved, escape, and then he gets pissed about you running away; it's actually a decent attempt at setting up an antagonist that the player has a personal history instead of the usual parade of boss candidates such as Lord Vaxulon The Corrupted, Random Guy You've Never Seen Before This Raid Opened.

Then you go to Highmaul and Kargath is there as the first boss of a raid he has almost nothing to do with beyond "there is an arena and Kargath was an arena fighter", you fight him there and kill him permanently, the end.

Disargeria
May 5, 2010


How WoD started:

Kargath: Kill your 100 as I trap you in this arena! :orks101:
You: *kills a lot*
Kargath: I only counted 99! :orks:
Khadgar: Then I guess we still owe you one! :sicknasty:

How WoD ended:

Grom: thank goodness draenor is free from demonic oppression so I can continue the regular genociding and conquering

Bonus BfA:

Grom: oh no I'm being genocided by the people I used to genocide

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.


Vengarr posted:

Except, the first decline in player base was when they introduced Brigitte. A low-skill-ceiling hero that blew up the existing e-sport meta completely. It went from a twitch shooter with a heavy emphasis on dive to…the glorious triple-tank meta that everyone hated, pro and average player alike.

They definitely did not create Brigitte to make Overwatch League more exciting. You couldn’t tell what they were going for really. And that ties back into the actual thread topic: the dysfunction that seems to have been at the heart of Blizzard all along. They didn’t seem to know or care what they were doing because they were too busy getting smashed and going on cubicle crawls.

It was so bizarre. They built a hero that basically just deleted Tracer from the game when at the time I believe she was wildly popular at all levels of play.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:


Bioshuffle posted:

Is there a chance all this lawsuit stuff will affect the release schedule of Diablo 4? I wouldn't think so, but if I knew for sure, I wouldn't be asking.
If it doesn't affect the schedule, it's at least gonna affect the time put into it. Though I imagine the eventual shakeup in the company might affect the schedule to inspire investor confidence of whatever.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010


Always a delight to see discussion of a dead(-ish) game get immediately piledrived by like four or five people who always, always blame it on the kids and their esports.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




yeah its not like blizzard has a habit of mishandling esports so badly that it straight-up inspired legislation

mutata
Mar 1, 2003
:toot:

As with most things, the realities are multi-tiered and complex. Were some people turned off by a perceived or actual e-sports focus? Yep. Were some people turned off by the seeming "dumbing down" of mechanics in favor of casual players? Sure. I honestly think that most people, myself included, just... moved on. In that aspect in particular I agree with Blizzard's decision to start work on a sequel or at least a substantial update. Lots of players really like the PvE elements and a campaign is a great way to start to flesh out the characters and extend that aspect of the game, which is obviously a large part of OW's broad appeal. You can argue about timing, sure, and they seem to have decided to smother the remaining enthusiasm for OW1 which is probably an eyebrow-raising decision as you start trying to spin up hype for a sequel, but they've also had a TON of talent drain over the past few years, including leadership roles on the project.

Grondoth
Feb 18, 2011


Pirate Jet posted:

Always a delight to see discussion of a dead(-ish) game get immediately piledrived by like four or five people who always, always blame it on the kids and their esports.

Probably not the kids and their esports, bur rather a company desperately trying to get in on that ad money and competitive circuit dollerydoos by pushing the esport angle more than the "people like this game" angle. I don't think anyone actually minds the idea of competitive leagues and tournaments, but it's best if they arrive organically via the game just being something people enjoy rather than a company trying to cultivate it.

Also:

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010



Not what I was saying, which was mocking people who think the very concept of esports is bad. Obviously Blizzard did mishandle the esports angle of Overwatch, as evidenced by the fact that it‘s dying.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






sethsez posted:

Blizzard loses confidence in their product and aimlessly tweaks it into the grave; sunrise, sunset.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



Good Dumplings posted:

isn't the point of cod that you can basically be piss-drunk and still play? it and battlefield can be hardcore but I don't think that's what most of their audience is there for, otherwise shooters would be evolutions of quake and ut right now

CoD is incredibly accessible. But it still has a bunch of people who whine that they don't like it because they actually have to aim and shoot. Overwatch introduces healers and tanks for these people.

Here's what I mean, millions of people who suck at shooter games play CoD and they loving love it. Hell casual players love counter strike and valorant and those games are more hardcore than Overwatch too. Overwatch is just boring and they kept making it worse by making everything either a bullet sponge or have a million shields (goats).

But to actually answer your question, no the point of of cod isnt that you can be piss drunk and still play. The point of CoD is to rack up sick nasty kills and trickshots.

Pirate Jet posted:

Always a delight to see discussion of a dead(-ish) game get immediately piledrived by like four or five people who always, always blame it on the kids and their esports.

lmao for real

Rogue AI Goddess
May 10, 2012

I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.
That was a joke... unless..?


A Warframe/Destiny style Overwatch with a heavy solo/co-op focus and PvP as a forgettable afterthought would be interesting.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!


Rogue AI Goddess posted:

A Warframe/Destiny style Overwatch with a heavy solo/co-op focus and PvP as a forgettable afterthought would be interesting.

That was probably Titan.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






I really liked the sound of what Titan almost was before it was poo poo canned

half a job simulator / clark kent sim and half a super hero shooter

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




honestly the idea of being a civilian in like, social zones and non-combat situations sounds strangely compelling. it actually gives a reason why everyone is being civil instead of whipping out their Super Powers all the time

though on the other hand it raises the Powerpuff Girls issue of "superpowers are fun to use and if you can fly/levitate why not just do that instead of walking like a pleb"

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Yeah, the fact that they weren't able to make a compelling game out of that concept feels like more a condemnation of the team than the concept being bad.

Back when Titan was canceled and Overwatch was fresh, we gave Blizzard the benefit of the doubt--how could ~*~Blizzard~*~ not know how to make a fun game? But maybe we shouldn't have. Especially since IIRC the Titan team was largely moved over to World of Warcraft and, well, you all know how that went.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Sep 29, 2021

anime was right
Jun 27, 2008

death is certain
keep yr cool


Dick Burglar posted:

Yeah, the fact that they weren't able to make a compelling game out of that concept feels like more a condemnation of the team than the concept being bad.

Back when Titan was canceled and Overwatch was fresh, we gave Blizzard the benefit of the doubt--how could ~*~Blizzard~*~ not know how to make a fun game? But maybe we shouldn't have. Especially since IIRC the Titan team was largely moved over to World of Warcraft and, well, you all know how that went.

it may have been they could have made something compelling, just they had no idea how to monetize it to the standards upper management wanted vs the cost to develop

ErrEff
Feb 13, 2012

Have you heard the good news?

Look deeply into my eyes.

STADIA!


Titan wasn't fun to play, according to Morhaime. Who knows if the team felt differently - in the end the game wasn't allowed to proceed because executives pulled the plug on it after years of being stuck.

The year before it was cancelled the project got rebooted with the reason being that they were "making large design and technology changes to the game". So maybe it was also not performing well and the development tools were causing problems, which is why they downsized the game from 100+ people when it was in full production.

Ursine Catastrophe
Nov 9, 2009



Rocket jumping?
That sounds dangerous...





Dinosaur Gum

ErrEff posted:

Titan wasn't fun to play, according to Morhaime. Who knows if the team felt differently - in the end the game wasn't allowed to proceed because executives pulled the plug on it after years of being stuck.

The year before it was cancelled the project got rebooted with the reason being that they were "making large design and technology changes to the game". So maybe it was also not performing well and the development tools were causing problems, which is why they downsized the game from 100+ people when it was in full production.

One of the last builds before the project was cancelled still involved a purely client-authoritative network model. The game was hosed for a lot of reasons and most of that seemed to stem back to someone defining the term "idea incubator" as "throw a bunch of poo poo into a dark room for 6 months and check back to see if any tasty mushrooms had miraculously appeared".

It's one of those hearsay stories that sounds too dumb to be true until you line it up with the number of already-documented restarts and do overs nearly every other blizzard title's run into over the years, turns out cube-crawling harassers don't necessarily make for the best managers, people or product, just because they're your drinking buddies

Abhorrence
Feb 5, 2010

A love that crushes like a mace.


To clarify, I probably should have said a "perceived focus on eSports." I don't mean to say that eSports are bad, seeing OW playing on TV in a bar was cool, actually, and I am not going to delve into any balance concerns, but it feels like there was a limited amount of content for casual players to consume, players like me who would have been happy with a little story content outside of the "once every April" lore drop. Doing things like... advancing the plot, or having a plot, or just showing the characters interacting in new ways, would be nice. Instead there were OWL updates, OWL skins, etc etc. It FELT like Blizz just cared about OWL. I was excited for the promise of a whole rear end PvE mode with story content, and if OW2 came out in 2020, or even early 2021, I would have eaten that poo poo up. But now the ship has sailed for ABK, at least for me.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

mutata posted:

As with most things, the realities are multi-tiered and complex. Were some people turned off by a perceived or actual e-sports focus? Yep. Were some people turned off by the seeming "dumbing down" of mechanics in favor of casual players? Sure. I honestly think that most people, myself included, just... moved on. In that aspect in particular I agree with Blizzard's decision to start work on a sequel or at least a substantial update. Lots of players really like the PvE elements and a campaign is a great way to start to flesh out the characters and extend that aspect of the game, which is obviously a large part of OW's broad appeal. You can argue about timing, sure, and they seem to have decided to smother the remaining enthusiasm for OW1 which is probably an eyebrow-raising decision as you start trying to spin up hype for a sequel, but they've also had a TON of talent drain over the past few years, including leadership roles on the project.

A large part of people "moving on" is because of Blizzard's bungling of their support of the existing product, though. Multiplayer games in the present day live or die in large part based on a perception if the game is being supported and updated or not. HotS is a really good example here - the game is still up and you can play it right now, but as far as the vast majority of players were concerned, it died when they put it on maintenance mode.

You really can't expect a multiplayer game to remain broadly popular nowadays unless you're either releasing a new version constantly(the CoD model) or you're continually pushing updates and new content for the playerbase to consume(the Fortnite model). Blizzard tried to abandon the latter in favor of the former but they are absolutely terrible at actually releasing new products on a timely basis.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003
:toot:

I don't completely agree generally, but I do agree you can extend the lifespan of a game by supporting it well (obviously). Even Counter-Strike has moved on to a few sequels though.

Games with huge, years long tails are the exception.

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

mutata posted:

I don't completely agree generally, but I do agree you can extend the lifespan of a game by supporting it well (obviously). Even Counter-Strike has moved on to a few sequels though.

Games with huge, years long tails are the exception.

I'm not sure I can think of a hugely successful multiplayer game that doesn't get new content/balancing on the regular these days. Even older games like CSGO still get new cosmetics and patches periodically. It's only going to become more common to expect games to constantly have new content being pumped into the players' retinas in the era of Fortnite.

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