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Ursine Catastrophe
Nov 9, 2009



Rocket jumping?
That sounds dangerous...





Dinosaur Gum

orange juche posted:

At least they're doing something. Blizzard probably wouldn't have acknowledged moderation decisions or reversal of same, especially as quickly as was done for this.

I mean you're not wrong
https://www.vice.com/en/article/xg8vmz/world-of-warcraft-player-penalized-for-asking-players-to-say-trans-rights

World of Warcraft' Player Penalized for Asking Players to Say 'Trans Rights posted:

After the most recent silencing, Reimann was told that customer service would no longer lift them. Specifically, they were told that "as group finder was not designed as a medium to discuss politics, we encourage you to try to avoid discussing politics in this communication channel."

"My statement is just 'trans people deserve human rights.' I don't think human rights are a political issue," Reimann said. "The thing is, if I backed down now, I think that would be very political, because I would have been bullied into silence."

I don't know if anything ever came of this or if it got swamped in other bad PR in the meantime

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Heran Bago
Aug 18, 2006





Well sure, their president retweeted screenshots of players wearing the confederate flag in-game, but they're not like Blizzard bad.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~




Heran Bago posted:

E: wrong thread (mech warrior walking back their bans on trans stuff)

This is absolutely the right thread for talking about that whole thing. It's a general "garbage video game industry" thread.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






Endorph posted:

the vast majority of people are just people.

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but the vast majority of people loving suck

Hauki
May 11, 2010




SirSamVimes posted:

This is absolutely the right thread for talking about that whole thing. It's a general "garbage video game industry" thread.

https://mwomercs.com/news/2021/10/2555-important-announcement-on-trans-rights

I believe this was what was linked for reference

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

The Twitter replies to the tweet of the announcement are a trash fire.

One can argue whether or not the majority of people suck, but I think it's fair to say that the majority of people simply do not think about trans-anything, and frankly don't want to. So while they may not be actively hostile to trans people and trans rights, they're in the "I don't wanna hear about it" camp, which is, in effect, passively hostile.

So yeah the majority of people suck.

happyhippy
Feb 21, 2005

Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup


Pillbug

Ursine Catastrophe posted:

I don't know if anything ever came of this or if it got swamped in other bad PR in the meantime

Can't see it getting much traction.
WoW has separate chat channels for different things. General for general chat, Trade for trading, Local Defense for when the city is being attacked, etc.
And you can say Trans rights as much as you want on them, as long as its not spamming in itself I suppose.

The LFG channel is not a chat channel, it is a FINDER. Like a shop window where you post ads looking for a baby sitter or selling a bike. But here you list your group that you want to do to find other players.
And its stricter than normal player interactive channels, to stop boosting groups from spamming it 24/7 and to external links like your Twitch or YT channel or seller websites.
So a blanket ban on anything

Magmarashi
May 20, 2009







happyhippy posted:

General for bigotry and political arguments, Trade for bigotry and political arguments


fixed that for ya

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Moola posted:

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but the vast majority of people loving suck

nah, theyre fine. the vast majority of people are fine. love how goons are desperate to say poo poo like this to trans people though. 'everyone hates you and wants you to die, and i know this because i kind of vaguely dont care, and that makes me a good person. other people cant also be kind of vaguely okay, because then that means my unearned sense of superiority cant exist anymore.'

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






Endorph posted:

nah, theyre fine. the vast majority of people are fine. love how goons are desperate to say poo poo like this to trans people though. 'everyone hates you and wants you to die, and i know this because i kind of vaguely dont care, and that makes me a good person. other people cant also be kind of vaguely okay, because then that means my unearned sense of superiority cant exist anymore.'

I had no idea you were trans lol what?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Moola posted:

I had no idea you were trans lol what?

it doesnt really matter if you did or not or even if i am or not tbh, its still a stupid thing to say in general in response to this kind of drama. because surprisingly this kind of thing doesnt come up in the vast majority of cases or fanbases. if it did, it wouldnt be news when it did come up!

like sure there's always dumb internet arguments but a few idiots causing dumb internet arguments does not mean the majority of people are terrible.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

"everyone is secretly thinking horrible thoughts, and most of them are just pretending to not get banned" is still an argument in favor of moderation and a condemnation of unmoderated spaces, which was the original thing that sparked this argument

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






Endorph posted:

it doesnt really matter if you did or not or even if i am or not tbh, its still a stupid thing to say in general in response to this kind of drama. because surprisingly this kind of thing doesnt come up in the vast majority of cases or fanbases. if it did, it wouldnt be news when it did come up!

like sure there's always dumb internet arguments but a few idiots causing dumb internet arguments does not mean the majority of people are terrible.

I just

I just meant most people suck in general as an off handed comment, it wasn't an attack on you. Or... trans people :psyduck:

Zwiebel
Feb 18, 2011

Hi!

The problem with going "Everyone is like this" is that this is literally something that racists/sexists/other bigots will consistently tell others to normalize their own behaviour, so I'd appreciate it if we'd stop aiding them in justifying, normalizing or excusing their lovely behaviour. That just makes us part of the problem and only serves to silence/marginalize people that know better than to be a piece of poo poo.
It is, in fact, not normal anymore to be a complete poo poo to the lgbtq community, that's why assholes get so mad and desperate about it.

I get that it's a dumb off-hand joke but I've had to deal with that exact garbage argument before when I stumbled into people going on stupid racist rants and it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. People have a capacity for being lovely or uncaring about things, but claiming everyone can't help but be garbage only empowers the worst behaviour.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Moola posted:

I just

I just meant most people suck in general as an off handed comment, it wasn't an attack on you. Or... trans people :psyduck:
i mean, i get that its an off handed comment, but its stupid and bad

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Zwiebel posted:

The problem with going "Everyone is like this" is that this is literally something that racists/sexists/other bigots will consistently tell others to normalize their own behaviour, so I'd appreciate it if we'd stop aiding them in justifying, normalizing or excusing their lovely behaviour. That just makes us part of the problem and only serves to silence/marginalize people that know better than to be a piece of poo poo.
It is, in fact, not normal anymore to be a complete poo poo to the lgbtq community, that's why assholes get so mad and desperate about it.

I get that it's a dumb off-hand joke but I've had to deal with that exact garbage argument before when I stumbled into people going on stupid racist rants and it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. People have a capacity for being lovely or uncaring about things, but claiming everyone can't help but be garbage only empowers the worst behaviour.

its good that moola didn't claim everyone is like that then

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

I JUST CAN NOT FUCKING SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT BUNNYBOYS!!!!!!!! hOLY SHIT TAILS!!! THATS WHAT I CALL POGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUCK


Deki posted:

My experience with ffxiv is only with a few months after launch, but yeah, there were just as many dicks per capita than any other game. Maybe they cultivated the community better since then, idk

The community isn't perfect. People still rage in pick up groups or are creeps, or do irritating poo poo to exploit the rules. However, it's a pretty stark difference from most other online games I've played (Overwatch, TF2, or Battlefield mostly). The main thing keeping the game relatively clean is a strictly-enforced Code of Conduct, but another aspect of it is that they've designed the game to encourage being nice to beginners. You get a bunch of treats for running content with first-timers and also there are a lot of cool unlocks gated behind racking up player commendations at the end of a run.


Kith posted:

its good that moola didn't claim everyone is like that then

What exactly is meant by the phrase "most people are garbage" in the context of a discussion of bigots taking over unmoderated communities then

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Chillgamesh posted:

What exactly is meant by the phrase "most people are garbage" in the context of a discussion of bigots taking over unmoderated communities then

probably the same thing that "i loving hate white people" means when my best friend vents to me about the prejudice that they experience for being brown in a podunk backwater community. it sounds like someone venting over having bad experiences in the past but also being conscious enough to leave room for a reasonable worldview (see: "vast majority of people" as opposed to "everyone")

anyways this is basically what's happening atm:

https://twitter.com/MikeDrucker/status/1137068315229208578?s=20

Moola
Aug 16, 2006






Chillgamesh posted:

What exactly is meant by the phrase "most people are garbage" in the context of a discussion of bigots taking over unmoderated communities then

it means "most people suck, and that sucks. It is a bad situation I feel you" how the gently caress is this being misread as an attack on minorities and supporting bigots?

is this a bit?

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

Zwiebel posted:

It is, in fact, not normal anymore to be a complete poo poo to the lgbtq community, that's why assholes get so mad and desperate about it.

uhhhhhh its pretty normal within the entire constituency of american conservatives, which are unfortunately not just a handful of fringe weirdos. people are still trying to pass bathroom bills, ffs

Also, recognizing that a lot of people kinda suck isn't in any way excusing bigotry. Y'all got some fuckin wild-rear end takes.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Kith posted:

anyways this is basically what's happening atm:

https://twitter.com/MikeDrucker/status/1137068315229208578?s=20
no, it isnt, at all

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Nah thatís almost exactly whatís happening and itís a bit gross

Good Dumplings
Mar 29, 2011

Excuse my worthless shitposting because all I can ever hope to accomplish in life is to rot away the braincells of strangers on the internet with my irredeemable brainworms.


Endorph posted:

no, it isnt, at all

I can tell you're not trying to do it but without being really explicit about exactly what your position is in a text-based medium, it's incredibly easy for it to be read as this

Kith/Moola are facing the same issue from the opposite direction tbf, text is just a really bad medium for communicating anything 'everybody should know'

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014

I JUST CAN NOT FUCKING SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT BUNNYBOYS!!!!!!!! hOLY SHIT TAILS!!! THATS WHAT I CALL POGGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUCK


Moola posted:

it means "most people suck, and that sucks. It is a bad situation I feel you" how the gently caress is this being misread as an attack on minorities and supporting bigots?

is this a bit?

The point was that online communities would suck less if the people in charge of them cared enough to moderate them, and you said "no they wouldn't because people are garbage". But sure, you were actually coming from a place of deep empathy when you said that. :jerkbag:

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006



Blizzard have a famous example of what half-assed moderation in an online gaming community will achieve: their notorious official forums.

PneumonicBook
Sep 26, 2007

Do you like our owl?





Ultra Carp

Slow news day in Blizz-land I see.

Metis of the Hallways
Aug 1, 2014




This is an incredibly dumb derail, let's stop here.

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.


Chillgamesh posted:

The point was that online communities would suck less if the people in charge of them cared enough to moderate them, and you said "no they wouldn't because people are garbage". But sure, you were actually coming from a place of deep empathy when you said that. :jerkbag:

That's not really true.

orange juche posted:

It's because gamers by and large are scum. There's a few bright spots, a few good communities in existence, but by and large they're still the same poo poo-ape morons dropping the hard R while spraying cheeto dust on xbox microphones. Game devs originate from this primordial cheeto soup, and they carry their prejudices with them. They dress it up and put out the pride flag for pride month as the corporate world demands in order to avoid getting backlash, but they don't actually believe it, much like most of the corporate world, they just make the moves to get the money. It is a cynical opinion, but it's better to be a cynic than naÔve.

Unless a game dev studio is making conscious, visible steps to increase diversity, and actually makes those diverse members of the team feel valued, assume they're the same shitapes from xbox live.

The opening quote of the argument says that game devs are unlikely to moderate their own communities because they draw from a pool of people who are generally speaking, ignorant of diversity and inclusivity and at worst actively hostile to it. Further that unless very large steps are being taken, the lip service paid to inclusivity is just that, something mandated so that business can continue.

Endorph posted:

i dont think this is really true on any level lol but it sure is a great exercise in making yourself feel better than some imagined person who doesnt actually exist

the vast majority of people are just people.

The counterpoint is this, saying that this pool of people is imagined and that most people are just relatively decent.

Moola posted:

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but the vast majority of people loving suck

The end point was this, saying that most people in fact suck.

The moderation of online communities changing those communities isn't what's being discussed, it's whether the actors in charge of moderation would voluntarily choose to do so in an effective way.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



I wonder what crimes Activision Blizzard got away with while they weren't being the most scrutinized company in California for the day.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012



Chillgamesh posted:

The point was that online communities would suck less if the people in charge of them cared enough to moderate them, and you said "no they wouldn't because people are garbage". But sure, you were actually coming from a place of deep empathy when you said that. :jerkbag:

I don't want to continue this discussion much longer but I do want to point out that I think you and Moola are talking past one another. You both agree that online communities suck less when they are actually moderated by humans, but Moola's take is that this is true because most people online suck and if left to their own devices without moderation, they will make a lovely community (not saying I agree in general, just trying to point out what I think Moola was saying). The other side here is that most people don't suck but that the moderation is necessary to prevent the minority of lovely people from drowning out the rest.

Anyway, I just wanted to try to put this post out there to mediate in case this argument spins up again, not to continue the argument. Let's all listen to Metis now:

New Super Metis posted:

This is an incredibly dumb derail, let's stop here.

16-bit Butt-Head
Dec 25, 2014
Probation
Can't post for 10 days!


orange juche posted:

It's because gamers by and large are scum. There's a few bright spots, a few good communities in existence, but by and large they're still the same poo poo-ape morons dropping the hard R while spraying cheeto dust on xbox microphones. Game devs originate from this primordial cheeto soup, and they carry their prejudices with them. They dress it up and put out the pride flag for pride month as the corporate world demands in order to avoid getting backlash, but they don't actually believe it, much like most of the corporate world, they just make the moves to get the money. It is a cynical opinion, but it's better to be a cynic than naÔve.

Unless a game dev studio is making conscious, visible steps to increase diversity, and actually makes those diverse members of the team feel valued, assume they're the same shitapes from xbox live.

gamers are people and people can be both good and evil OP

Captain Gordon
Jul 22, 2004

:10bux::10bux::10bux::10bux::10bux:

orange juche posted:

It's because gamers by and large are scum. There's a few bright spots, a few good communities in existence, but by and large they're still the same poo poo-ape morons dropping the hard R while spraying cheeto dust on xbox microphones. Game devs originate from this primordial cheeto soup, and they carry their prejudices with them. They dress it up and put out the pride flag for pride month as the corporate world demands in order to avoid getting backlash, but they don't actually believe it, much like most of the corporate world, they just make the moves to get the money. It is a cynical opinion, but it's better to be a cynic than naÔve.

Unless a game dev studio is making conscious, visible steps to increase diversity, and actually makes those diverse members of the team feel valued, assume they're the same shitapes from xbox live.

I dont agree with this at all.

You are painting with a hell of a broad brush here. The reason people are dropping the hard R in cod voicechat is the classic case of total anonymity + lack of consequences, which has existed since the Internet was invented. Its the same type of shock humor that existed on this very website in the aughts . People will always see the appeal of wanting to break a taboo, especially in a socially acceptable way or a consequence free setting.

The reason diversity and inclusion topics are such hot water in games right now is because they are very often pushed by people who either have absolutely nothing else going for them or who do it in an extremly forceful or overtly performative ways (whether thats due to Rainbow Capitalism or personal motivation, is another question altogether). Looking at the recent WoW changes as an example, I am not sure how turning portraits of women into fruit or making all female characters cover up head to toe mitigates anything Blizzard's women-touching higher-ups did. It almost feels like the new guard are punishing the player base for being bad, when its their own company that perpetuated all the horrible poo poo we read in the news. Its also extremely questionable changes to focus on when they blatantly ignore glaring gameplay issues that make the game terrible!

I am not against diversity and inclusion at all, but when we talk about games (or books, or films) it can't be done at the expense of the experience, otherwise it just comes across as pointless virtue signalling/soapboxing. It doesnt help also that any criticism leveled at the creators is immideatly met with some version of "well you must be a bigot because you dont like this LGBTQ+ inclusive media". You can have a diverse and inclusive game and it also can be a complete dogshit mess gameplay/story wise at the same time; these two arent mutually exclusive. I think this is what causes so much frustration when we talk about these things, not to mention the terminal brain poisoning we get every day from reading seriously mentally ill people from twitter yelling at other seriously mentally people from patriots.win or whaterver.

The main problem is that most videogame writers/character designers are not very good at what they do. This results in most D+I topics falling flat, even if they have good intentions - ME: Andromeda's first iteration of a trans npc immideatly comes to mind. On the other hand, you have an extremely touching LGBTQ-focused story in the Last of Us 2, which is great because the characters are well written and thought out. Sadly, the latter is an exception rather than the rule in the industry.

Speaking of D+I, some of the best D+I efforts that I remember came from the most surprising of places. HBS Battletech quietly introduced pronouns at character creation, without fanfare or making a BIG SOCIAL MEDIA ANNOUNCEMENT. Not sure if they were the first ones to do so, but it definetly stood out to me as the step in the right direction at the time.

The point is that making meaningful, interesting D+I changes in media is actually pretty hard work and not everyone is cut out to do it. This is why we have a consistent stream of D+I hacks, who simply use it as a shield for criticism against their poorly made creations, or worse, use it to cover up their own problematic past. This fundamental hipocrisy is what usually sparks the outrage, which is in turn fueled by bad actors from both sides :smith:

Captain Gordon fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Oct 5, 2021

Disargeria
May 5, 2010


I'm not saying you're a chud but the chuds use this same logic and it's kind of weird because it's all over the wow reddit with all the subtleness of whataboutism and just asking questions.


quote:

Looking at the recent WoW changes as an example, I am not sure how turning portraits of women into fruit or making all female characters cover up head to toe mitigates anything Blizzard's women-touching higher-ups did.

You're setting up a straw man here, where you've already applied a causal relationship and goal to something we don't know anything about. The meme of turning women into fruit completely ignores that an overtly sexualized image of an intern(?) is removed. Because it should be. And to argue any finer detail is dishonest. It's like you're not even arguing about the subject itself. I believe it's not intentional, but let's keep in mind that the highly emotional energy surrounding the game is male dominated, and the passively affected women who don't have a strong voice in this discussion aren't being represented in it. So while we argue and laugh about bowls of fruit and ulterior motives and what better things they could be doing, you're completely waysiding the fact that maybe this game doesn't need all these scantily clad women around. And maybe WoW isn't WoW because you can fart.

We can all fault Blizzard for doing a terrible job in the past, but sweeping aside all of their steps forward as performative also seems dishonest, given how low key they've kept everything. Maybe it seems performative because everyone ELSE can't stop focusing and talking about it.

quote:

It almost feels like the new guard are punishing the player base for being bad,

... It's a goddamn pixilated painting. Punishment is not a word to use here.

quote:

I am not against diversity and inclusion at all, but when we talk about games (or books, or films) it can't be done at the expense of the experience

This is also quite a selection of words

Disargeria fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Oct 5, 2021

Disargeria
May 5, 2010


.

FeatherFloat
Dec 31, 2003

Not kyuute


Yeah, the whole "feels like they're punishing the player base for being bad" thing implies that it's a punishment to... not have as many boobies in a game? That the act of altering the cleavage/naked lady/innuendo content of a game is stripping something vital and essential? Why do so many discussions about "I wish the female characters could cover up some" get countered by "you just hate fun, you're taking my fun away, why can't we have FUN???"

And like, this feels insincere because it's Blizzard and they haven't done enough yet to earn any benefit of the doubt that this is a first step in a long line of fixes versus it's a quick coat of paint that will never be revisited or followed up on in the future once the heat has died down. It's not bad because too-showy demonstrations of diversity and inclusion are somehow inherently bad. The example given of the "best" video game inclusion move being one that wasn't announced is like... is diversity only good if you don't talk about it? Don't discuss it? Don't make anyone uncomfortable with the implication that maybe things before weren't as good? Don't be showy and obvious about it? Don't be too queer, too feminist, too woke? Maybe that's not what's being implied but that's the feeling I get when people say that the best ways of doing this are the most invisible, and anything too overt is "at the expense" of some pure, "neutral" version of the thing.

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006



LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

Gamers are decent, hardworking folk who just want to come home after a hard day of work and unwind by typing vile poo poo into Twitch chat or Discord.

I'd just like to point out that when I made this joke I had no idea there was another Nazi gamer goon Discord drama happening.

Looper
Mar 1, 2012



Captain Gordon posted:

I dont agree with this at all.

You are painting with a hell of a broad brush here. The reason people are dropping the hard R in cod voicechat is the classic case of total anonymity + lack of consequences, which has existed since the Internet was invented. Its the same type of shock humor that existed on this very website in the aughts . People will always see the appeal of wanting to break a taboo, especially in a socially acceptable way or a consequence free setting.

The reason diversity and inclusion topics are such hot water in games right now is because they are very often pushed by people who either have absolutely nothing else going for them or who do it in an extremly forceful or overtly performative ways (whether thats due to Rainbow Capitalism or personal motivation, is another question altogether). Looking at the recent WoW changes as an example, I am not sure how turning portraits of women into fruit or making all female characters cover up head to toe mitigates anything Blizzard's women-touching higher-ups did. It almost feels like the new guard are punishing the player base for being bad, when its their own company that perpetuated all the horrible poo poo we read in the news. Its also extremely questionable changes to focus on when they blatantly ignore glaring gameplay issues that make the game terrible!

I am not against diversity and inclusion at all, but when we talk about games (or books, or films) it can't be done at the expense of the experience, otherwise it just comes across as pointless virtue signalling/soapboxing. It doesnt help also that any criticism leveled at the creators is immideatly met with some version of "well you must be a bigot because you dont like this LGBTQ+ inclusive media". You can have a diverse and inclusive game and it also can be a complete dogshit mess gameplay/story wise at the same time; these two arent mutually exclusive. I think this is what causes so much frustration when we talk about these things, not to mention the terminal brain poisoning we get every day from reading seriously mentally ill people from twitter yelling at other seriously mentally people from patriots.win or whaterver.

The main problem is that most videogame writers/character designers are not very good at what they do. This results in most D+I topics falling flat, even if they have good intentions - ME: Andromeda's first iteration of a trans npc immideatly comes to mind. On the other hand, you have an extremely touching LGBTQ-focused story in the Last of Us 2, which is great because the characters are well written and thought out. Sadly, the latter is an exception rather than the rule in the industry.

Speaking of D+I, some of the best D+I efforts that I remember came from the most surprising of places. HBS Battletech quietly introduced pronouns at character creation, without fanfare or making a BIG SOCIAL MEDIA ANNOUNCEMENT. Not sure if they were the first ones to do so, but it definetly stood out to me as the step in the right direction at the time.

The point is that making meaningful, interesting D+I changes in media is actually pretty hard work and not everyone is cut out to do it. This is why we have a consistent stream of D+I hacks, who simply use it as a shield for criticism against their poorly made creations, or worse, use it to cover up their own problematic past. This fundamental hipocrisy is what usually sparks the outrage, which is in turn fueled by bad actors from both sides :smith:

what

thetoughestbean
Apr 27, 2013

It is a good thing that I possess such a high intelligence; otherwise this might easily have led to a very awkward situation

So how bout that Diablo 2 Remaster. I hear it has problems

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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




tracer's polish name is smuga

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