|
even if they've never worked with physical documents and manila folders before, most human beings have an intuitive understanding of a physical item that can only be in one place at a time. if you try to actually build a system entirely around tagging and forego giving things a canonical location at all, it's just hard for people to understand, especially when it comes to things like deleting and making copies.
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 02:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Nov 12, 2025 14:16 |
|
|
But files aren't physical objects. I would argue that many, many users can't conceptualize "locations" inside a computer. They live in a world where they are looking at a screen. We live in a mental world while using a computer. That's why we answer the tickets that they can barely articulate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 02:16
|
|
|
It's hard to let go of the desktop metaphor when the human mind is so spatially oriented. We always go "I remember that icon, it's up in the top left about yea over there" way easier than "I remember what that file was called" or "I remember roughly how recently I last looked at it" or even "I remember what folder it's in and where that folder is". But if a whole generation of users who are used to apps using internal documents with their own bespoke internal navigation systems are any indication, none of that may be necessary. A generalized OS-level app-agnostic file navigation structure made sense once upon a time but I guess nobody mourns its loss
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 02:25
|
|
|
If these articles prove anything it's that someone mourns the loss, if only educators. We're weirdos who will go and find a way to access it anyway if we need to. Trying to print stuff is a good way to start that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 02:43
|
|
|
Concretely: Google Drive tried to ditch the "one canonical location" concept and have things live in many locations at the same time, and it didn't work. They had to go back to having one location for each file. I've never heard of a situation where having a concrete real-world metaphor made something more difficult to explain.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 03:27
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:The hierarchy of folders is a vestigial side effect of physical documents/folders, where you can only put a document in one folder and that folder can only go in one other folder etc. There's no intrinsic need for this in software, you can have your document be in many different folders at once if you want, and that's basically what tagging is. Just combine that with a nice browser view for digging through your tags (i.e. by count of items tagged, date of last access, etc) and you have something that's more useful and more intuitive for someone who's never actually touched a manila folder before. About a decade ago, I was an admin for a document management system that did exactly that: Motive M-Files. It was quite good when I supported it, but I haven't touched it since I left that job. No endorsement of it as it stands today. Imagine SharePoint developed by a group of intelligent people with a clear set of objectives and not hamstrung by a syphilitic codebase. Whenever you uploaded a document, you'd get a single form pop-up to fill out with stuff like document type, client, project, date sent, and whatever specific fields were necessary for that particular document type. Then behind the scenes we had a bunch of "views" or folder paths built from those tags. You could search off the tag info (and I think it did full-text search too?), build your own personal views, or just use the "default"/department-wide shared views. There was one copy of the file, but you could drill down to it through multiple paths. Need to see all the letters sent out for a particular project? Projects -> $Project Code -> Letters. Need to see all the unpaid invoices sent to a specific client? Client -> Invoices -> Filter by "Paid = No" (because we had a custom integration with our accounting software, this was basically automatic). It had a local client that was generally quite good. It did syncing and caching very well. But our config was limited to in-office or (slow) VPN connections only. Because the M-Files server ran locally, not in the cloud (that barely existed then). Nothing like a OneDrive "automatically sync anywhere you've got a whiff of internet". I don't recall exactly how it handled conflicts. It did a great job on versioning, and it looked like normal files and directories to other programs. It can and does work. But we also built out "standard" views, because that's how most brains work. Compliance was strictly enforced because we had complete buy-in from upper management. They didn't quite grasp the deepest complexities of the system, but they were a bunch of engineers and architects who knew the importance of a good filing system. Also really helped that the company was tiny (<300 employees total).
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 05:21
|
|
|
Renegret posted:We had a computer lab in both my elementary and middle school, and in both schools they had no idea what to do with it. So all we did was get put in front of some math or reading educational software and learn nothing about computers. We had a class that involved learning computer stuff, and a computer "lab". The class was outdated even at the time, and I recall it talked more about specifics than fundamentals. Yeah a CD is 700MB, incredibly educational. The lab was basically a free hour, stuff wasn't locked down in the slightest, including the Internet (think 2008ish)  There also were (and still are probably) places that do computer education, basic Excel/Word/hardware stuff, which was a nice way for a kid to get into that area. Nothing too much but it opened some familiarity to get into the real deal later on. I do believe in user education, or at least in them having some basic "courage" to not immediately have an issue. Got a walk-up this week with the reading pane having disappeared from Outlook. Fair enough, you don't know off the top of your head the setting, but why not take a look in the menus, see if there's something relevant. If you're scared of breaking something, don't click anything, just look, and ask about it, rather than nothing, if that makes sense?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 06:23
|
|
|
I know I was very enamored of the idea of tailored navigation systems when apps like iTunes and iPhoto came out, the former opening up my eyes to the possibilities of navigating to your music by genre, composer, release date, whatever you like, not just "well I have a Music folder and in that I have a Rock folder and in that I have a Metallica folder and in that I have all my stolen Metallica MP3s" which makes you overload the filenames with track number prefixes to make them sort properly and breaks down as soon as you have things like compilation albums or classical music etc. And in the iPhoto case I was like, okay, how about navigating your photos not by folder but by visually scanning the thumbnails in a timeline view? Yeah that makes way more sense. But this line of thinking does only go so far, and can't really extend beyond this small handful of use cases. I stopped trying to blue-sky my way through this stuff many years ago and I'm content to just let apps do what they wanna do, and if the emergent paradigm is "each app (edit: and website) has its own internal file soup", I can live with that, but also I'm not totally surprised that the desktop/files/folders metaphor hasn't made any real moves toward going away, at least on non-mobile (that distinction still existing is a whole nother kettle of fish). Data Graham fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jul 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 12:07
|
|
|
"Gen Z doesn't know how to computer" How is this different than half of our userbase? The ones who store everything on their desktop, or in downloads? Or who use Outlook for document storage? It's just a new group that people want to complain about. At least Gen Z is young enough that they have the excuse of not having been shown how stuff works, Boomers who have been using modern GUI systems for now 30 years have none.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 12:30
|
|
|
As far as alternatives to filesystems go, there’s quite a bit written about it in acedemic circles, with two of the more interesting ideas being orthagonal persistence and relational databases using tagging. If you anyone’s interested, look up ErosOS and Plan9. There’s also navigational database, but I don’t know that that has a working implementation (and some argue that a hierarchical filesystem is a navigational database). WinFS in Longhorn was also supposed to be a departure from the hierarchical filesystem. Also: here’s a fun exercise; without looking it up, define the difference between a folder and a directory as it applies to filesystems. Even though a lot of folks who’re familiar with hierarchical filesystems use the words interchangably, they don’t mean the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 13:43
|
|
|
chin up everything sucks posted:"Gen Z doesn't know how to computer" I would've hoped millennials would have learned not to complain about gen z the way boomers complained about millennials, but alas That being said, I'm going to nut punch the first poster who says rizz
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 14:14
|
|
|
Renegret posted:I would've hoped millennials would have learned not to complain about gen z the way boomers complained about millennials, but alas 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 14:29
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:Also: here’s a fun exercise; without looking it up, define the difference between a folder and a directory as it applies to filesystems. In Windows, I would say a Folder is a container that exists within the shell namespace (File Explorer), this folder could represent a Directory on a standard filesystem, or it could be virtual and its content might not be files or might only be materialized when the user does something with it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 14:57
|
|
|
Does it have to do with spatiality / the visual representation where a folder window has a defined and persistent on-screen location? And/or you can only have one window open at a time for a given folder?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 15:02
|
|
|
Wait, folder and directory are not the same thing? I've been using them interchangeably for the past 30 years.  e: oh my god https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5078676/what-is-the-difference-between-a-directory-and-a-folder#5078792 quote:If one is referring to a container of documents, the term folder is more appropriate. The term directory refers to the way a structured list of document files and folders is stored on the computer. The distinction can be due to the way a directory is accessed; on Unix systems, /usr/bin/ is usually referred to as a directory when viewed in a command line console, but if accessed through a graphical file manager, users may sometimes call it a folder.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 15:22
|
|
|
Sywert of Thieves posted:Wait, folder and directory are not the same thing? I've been using them interchangeably for the past 30 years. you'd still be right 99% of the time, but yeah
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 15:27
|
|
|
How many people on this planet would care about the distinction? A dozen?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 15:42
|
|
|
add me to the list, i love being a pedantic gently caress
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 15:55
|
|
|
The best kind of pedantic distinction is one that's based on an entirely arbitrary different pedantic distinction. What's the difference between a file and a document?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 16:14
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:The best kind of pedantic distinction is one that's based on an entirely arbitrary different pedantic distinction. What's the difference between a file and a document? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 16:23
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:The best kind of pedantic distinction is one that's based on an entirely arbitrary different pedantic distinction. What's the difference between a file and a document? Raymond Chen posted:In general, code which manipulates the shell namespace should operate on folders and items, not directories and files, so as not to tie themselves to a particular storage medium. For example, code which limits itself to files won't be able to navigate into a Zip file, since the contents of a Zip file are exposed in the form of a virtual folder. https://web.archive.org/web/20120125050726/http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/16/10129908.aspx
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 16:38
|
|
|
That link raises so many more questions and I love it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
Is a Zip file a sandwich? Go!
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 16:49
|
|
|
Internet Explorer posted:Is a Zip file a sandwich? Go! open face, but yes
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 17:27
|
|
|
A zip file is a thing you put things in and they get smaller. So a stew.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 20:00
|
|
|
The Fool posted:open face, but yes Ahh so it's a taco then
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 21:07
|
|
|
Renegret posted:Ahh so it's a taco then No it's a pizza
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 21:20
|
|
|
It's a burrito because they're often sloppily made and you can unpack them to extract the contents.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 21:22
|
|
|
Burrito works well because they are often filled with things you can’t compress well and thus barely save space vs a bowl
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 21:28
|
|
|
Renegret posted:Ahh so it's a taco then sandwich kensei posted:No it's a pizza sandwich Geemer posted:It's a burrito because they're often sloppily made and you can unpack them to extract the contents. sandwich
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 21:39
|
|
|
Tacos are tacos, pizza is toast, burrito is calzone Cube rule.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 22:22
|
|
|
Cube is sandwich. Rule is soup.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 23:38
|
|
|
Since file structures are a tree then that makes them a salad
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2024 23:47
|
|
|
chin up everything sucks posted:"Gen Z doesn't know how to computer" in my experience there's distinct kinds of "don't know how to computer" and some of those kinds of not knowing how to computer are more prevalent in different age cohorts, but there is no age group that is reliably computer-savvy. e.g. in Gen-Xers and Boomers you get a lot of the "I'm Just Not Good With Technology" people who just freeze up if you try to get them to understand anything technical, and will not read the error message on the screen even if it spells out exactly what the problem is and what to do about it. In Gen-X / Millenials you get a lot of people who think they are good with technology but actually know just enough to get themselves into trouble and will get mad if it's pointed out they're doing something wrong or fundamentally misunderstanding something. And in young millenials and younger you get a lot of the "raised on phones and doesn't know what a file directory is" effect. But all of those age groups have people who are tech savvy or not, the not just tends to manifest in different ways in the different age groups.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2024 01:20
|
|
|
It’s almost as if you have to be willing to learn, and also put in effort - rather than expecting to learn through osmosis.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
Arquinsiel posted:Those stories always just make me wonder if schools have completely abandoned basic computer lessons. I'm pretty sure most schools have abandoned basic education unless it's on some mandated test. Renegret posted:I would've hoped millennials would have learned not to complain about gen z the way boomers complained about millennials, but alas I'm Gen X. I'm going to complain about all three, because you all are destroying the world in different ways. We're the only one's holding things together, obviously. No, but really, Gen Z is screwed so badly, and not of their own doing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2024 18:43
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:It’s almost as if you have to be willing to learn, and also put in effort - rather than expecting to learn through osmosis. this sounds very unamerican
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2024 19:19
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:It’s almost as if you have to be willing to learn, and also put in effort - rather than expecting to learn through osmosis. Ugh.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2024 12:59
|
|
|
Ugh.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2024 13:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Nov 12, 2025 14:16 |
|
|
A zip file is like when you sauté spinach
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2024 14:19
|
|