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Godholio posted:That's entirely untrue. If Israel actually targeted that hospital, it absolutely destroys the rapport that's been slowly building up. I'm confident they're going to find some other way to accomplish that, but poo poo hasn't completely imploded yet, so it matters. The videos and the 'Clip of Hamas Operatives' both. That's really all the evidence they got and it doesn't point to Palestine cuz it's either misrepresented (the 'falling missile' video is of an Israeli interceptor) or fabricated (the Hamas clip is faked).
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Oct 26, 2023 03:53
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 (screenshot is from https://www.axios.com/2023/10/24/us-citizens-israel-gaza-lebanon-egypt-jordan)
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Oct 26, 2023 07:02
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Under the law of armed conflict what happened at the hospital is pretty important, either way. If it was a hospital being bombed that's a hugely damaging case for Israel, if it's a demonstrable case of a rocket being fired out of a hospital it can clearly make it a legitimate target under the LOAC, and both of those will then be used as justification for future action. In this forum people are knowledgeable about the LOAC, right?
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Oct 26, 2023 11:08
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knox_harrington posted:In this forum people are knowledgeable about the LOAC, right?
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Oct 26, 2023 11:13
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knox_harrington posted:Under the law of armed conflict what happened at the hospital is pretty important, either way. If it was a hospital being bombed that's a hugely damaging case for Israel, if it's a demonstrable case of a rocket being fired out of a hospital it can clearly make it a legitimate target under the LOAC, and both of those will then be used as justification for future action. it doesnt mean poo poo if no one will do anything
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Oct 26, 2023 11:48
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The Wall Street Journal has really been pushing the whole Iranian involvement angle on the October 7 attack. Paywall-free link here:quote:TEL AVIV—In the weeks leading up to Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel, hundreds of the Palestinian Islamist militant group’s fighters received specialized combat training in Iran, according to people familiar with intelligence related to the assault. I don't think Iran had a direct role in planning the attack, but I'm betting that Israel finds a way to hit people in Iran that it thinks may have been part of the Hamas training aspect.
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Oct 26, 2023 12:08
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knox_harrington posted:In this forum people are knowledgeable about the LOAC, right? International law is more of a set of guidelines, there’s no enforcement mechanism.
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Oct 26, 2023 13:30
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pantslesswithwolves posted:I don't think Iran had a direct role in planning the attack, but I'm betting that Israel finds a way to hit people in Iran that it thinks may have been part of the Hamas training aspect. That's reasonable. A lot of people are talking about a wider war, and while that's possible, I don't think it's too likely. Assassinations, sabotage and other more discrete actions? Yeah that sounds pretty likely.
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Oct 26, 2023 14:04
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Israel has been bombing protected sites for decades. The only way it would matter is if they did a super cut of the strike operation set to Drowning Pool on Prime Time TV. And even then, nothing would be done since they have US backing E- I'm tired of pretending the LOAC means anything to anyone who violates it as a strategic policy bulletsponge13 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 15:06
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Israel has the US backing it on the UN security council so it's essentially immune to international law
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Oct 26, 2023 17:12
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War crimes only matter if there's someone willing to prosecute you for them
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Oct 26, 2023 17:48
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That is definitely not true now when global public opinion is more important than ever, and content is disseminated in real time.
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Oct 26, 2023 20:34
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knox_harrington posted:That is definitely not true now when global public opinion is more important than ever, and content is disseminated in real time. It absolutely is still true.
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Oct 26, 2023 20:45
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Which rules of war are you expecting Israel to be judged by?
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Oct 26, 2023 20:56
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....any? I don't mean people being big mad and chiding them, I mean facing no-poo poo juries and trials. I would be willing to bet very large amounts of money that no one responsible ever faces justice for the wholesale slaughter currently going on.
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Oct 26, 2023 21:21
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When have they ever faced any sort of repercussions for their crimes?bulletsponge13 posted:And even then, nothing would be done since they have US backing
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Oct 26, 2023 21:32
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knox_harrington posted:Which rules of war are you expecting Israel to be judged by? Well, I would figure the pretty much agreed upon ones the US pretends to follow. They have for years and faced what? Support from the US, a few complaints that are conveniently pushed under the rug, and expansion against their own laws, treaties, and Constitution. Israel is ignoring every tenet of LOAC on livestream, and no one is doing anything about it. They are admitting to it in press releases and by spokesperson. Not trying to be a doom saying rear end in a top hat, but who os going to push for punishment? The US certainly can't- They were complicit, supportive, currently violating them, and set the rules that ICC doesn't matter; we passed a law authorizing military action if any American is indicted. Russia? Who supported chemical weapons use in Syria, whose tactical prowess is dedicated to ignoring the laws of combat, and is currently violating them? Who do we expect to hold them accountable when they have the US watching their back?
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Oct 26, 2023 21:34
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generally the only way people ever face legal consequences for war crimes is if they either lose a war and manage to get captured or if there are laws on their own books against the conduct and the efforts to cover up or conceal the crimes are insufficient. every great once in a while someone gets captured and tried by the other side, but that's exceedingly rare. you also see sanctions against military leadership somewhat regularly, but practically speaking there's either domestic enforcement or there's no enforcementbulletsponge13 posted:Well, I would figure the pretty much agreed upon ones the US pretends to follow. They have for years and faced what? Support from the US, a few complaints that are conveniently pushed under the rug, and expansion against their own laws, treaties, and Constitution. only way anyone in israel is facing legal consequences is if Israeli laws were followed and/or existed with any amount of teeth. in practice IDF has been extremely consistent about running interference for soldiers that go too far to the extent that they're basically guaranteed to get off. israel's record of prosecutions of soldiers and security forces for crimes against civilians is incredibly poor. Accountability for Israel's macro level violations (eg the various avenues of collective punishment, really garbage targeting practices, etc.) isn't even a part of the conversation. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 26, 2023 |
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Oct 26, 2023 21:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:generally the only way people ever face legal consequences for war crimes is if they either lose a war and manage to get captured or if there are laws on their own books against the conduct and the efforts to cover up or conceal the crimes are insufficient. every great once in a while someone gets captured and tried by the other side, but that's exceedingly rare. you also see sanctions against military leadership somewhat regularly, but practically speaking there's either domestic enforcement or there's no enforcement Agreed. The IDF was heinous enough that a US weapons maker refused to fulfill an order. The IDF requested Integrally Suppressed 10/22 rifles for "Riot Control". In the solicitation, it was stated they intended to use frangible ammo and shoot 5-10 meters into the ground in front of the protestors, sending less lethal shrapnel and debris into the shins and legs. It did say that it could also be used to destroy lights and dispatch guard dogs for their SOF units. The first time fielded, it was used to headshot protestors, including a child.
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Oct 26, 2023 21:47
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:....any? I don't mean people being big mad and chiding them, I mean facing no-poo poo juries and trials. I would be willing to bet very large amounts of money that no one responsible ever faces justice for the wholesale slaughter currently going on. Obviously nobody is able to stop anything right now, and unless countries are dissolved somehow they're unlikely to give up servicemen for prosecution unless it's against internal law. That being said Israel has a right under international law to respond to being attacked. The way they are supposed to be judged on that response is the LOAC. Randomly bombing a hospital would be a breach of that, so the detail on what happened is important.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:22
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Initial incursion by the IDF overnight, almost certainly foreshadowing an actual ground operation: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-palestinians-live-updates-570e339a06920ab4dd6e89634756141f Same update cites HAMAS calling for the involvement of their allies including Lebanese Hizballah.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:46
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bulletsponge13 posted:Agreed. NYPD used their riot control weapons to headshot protestors leaving some with permanent damage, and Boston PD used a pepper ball gun to kill a bystander back in '04. Plenty harmful despite not being .22s. General rule should be that authorities will always defy doctrine to inflict maximum harm if given the resources.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:50
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Btw, this is what I mean when I say one round on one hospital doesn't really matter. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/26/satellite-images-show-scale-of-destruction-in-israels-assault-on-gaza They're going full passchendaele mode and trying to distract from it by going "oh but we didn't do that one "
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Oct 26, 2023 23:19
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Suicide Watch posted:NYPD used their riot control weapons to headshot protestors leaving some with permanent damage, and Boston PD used a pepper ball gun to kill a bystander back in '04. Plenty harmful despite not being .22s. General rule should be that authorities will always defy doctrine to inflict maximum harm if given the resources. TASERs were originally pitched to the public as “cops will only use this when they otherwise would have had to use lethal force.” Now it’s used as a compliance tool, and hardly an eye is batted.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:23
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knox_harrington posted:Obviously nobody is able to stop anything right now, and unless countries are dissolved somehow they're unlikely to give up servicemen for prosecution unless it's against internal law. There's also that whole thing of cutting water, power, food and fuel. Focusing on the hospital is missing the forest for the trees.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:39
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It still trips me out how people misunderstand the responsibility of violence.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:42
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bulletsponge13 posted:It still trips me out how people misunderstand the responsibility of violence. .....go on?
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Oct 26, 2023 23:45
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:There's also that whole thing of cutting water, power, food and fuel. Focusing on the hospital is missing the forest for the trees. Right on. Isn’t food water and medicine interference prohibited by the Geneva convention? Why can’t we apply international law to hamas as well? Apart from the terrorist attack, they’re still yeeting rockets toward civilians which has to violate targeting rules. Aren’t these guys just chilling in Qatar? I’d just like to see everyone in jail, please.
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Oct 27, 2023 00:16
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:.....go on? I have an odd view of violence given my experiences and former profession. I'm stealing directly from a sour source, Heinlein, because it is a cleaner version of harder lessons I was taught as a kid. Condensed slightly for ease of reading "Violence is the Supreme authority..." everyone knows that bit. What people miss is a later passage- "What is the converse of authority?" "Responsibility." "Authority and Responsibility MUST be equal...To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold hold man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind stupidity." Violence is authority. When you weird it over someone, they are inherently weaker- or else violence doesn't work. That means you have the responsibility to wield that as evenly as possible, and to hold yourself to accountability. Mistakes of violence are not something you can remedy- if I punch you, I permanently alter you in some slight fashion. The more carnage in the violence, the more hesitation you should feel before you execute. You cannot take back a bullet, you can't make whole someone rendered. I just think that if you are going to be the hammer, you better be drat sure it's a loving nail. If you miss the nail, you should pay for the thumb. You have to make the hard decisions- it's always easier to kill, but easy rarely means right. I read too much philosophy as a kid.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:56
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Suicide Watch posted:NYPD used their riot control weapons to headshot protestors leaving some with permanent damage, and Boston PD used a pepper ball gun to kill a bystander back in '04. Plenty harmful despite not being .22s. General rule should be that authorities will always defy doctrine to inflict maximum harm if given the resources. Oh hey, I remember that night (Boston). It was fuckin' wild because it was basically a bunch of college/high school kids celebrating the Red Sox beating the Yankees in game 7 of the ALCS, and then that happened. I just remember the vibe in the crowd got pretty dark once word spread and my friend and I just went back to her dorm because no one really knew what the gently caress happened beyond "They shot some girl!" Anyways, they later tried to blame the crowds for her death, not the fact they were firing less than lethal projectiles at people's heads.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:56
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Borscht posted:Right on. Isn’t food water and medicine interference prohibited by the Geneva convention? Probably a double post since I was typing while this came up. Someone correct me of I'm wrong, but I believe for International law to apply, you must meet the 4 requirements for a recognized force- a C2 element (someone responsible for what takes place), a uniform or identifiable markings designating them as a fighting force, openly carry arms, and conduct operations under LOAC/LOLW; otherwise they fall into the nebulous category we helped invent 'Unlawful Combatant' and they lose all rights beyond what the opponent forces decides to grant them. That would mean they would fall under the Israeli justice system, as I understand it. But I'm not a law guy.
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Oct 27, 2023 02:04
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Thank you. In that case, how should Israel be proceeding in this war? Just to be abundantly clear, I’m not trying to play devils advocate; their actions are monstrous. I’m just curious what the “right way” would look like. Just better targeting for the sources of the rocket attacks?
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Oct 27, 2023 02:56
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Borscht posted:Thank you. In that case, how should Israel be proceeding in this war? If you are asking my opinion, they forfiet any ability to do that when they decided a long time that the laws don't apply to them. They made this beast, and decided the RoE years ago. Militarily wise, they should be trying to focus on precision strikes on launch sites, saturating the area with ISR, and working at the kill chain- not quite ignoring the low level guys, but putting resources into hunting the Hamas leadership. Engaging low level fighters when forced, but otherwise conducting a lot of presence patrols where they meet and greet, asking the locals what they need, and providing it. They should be making a clear delination that Gaza =/= Hamas, that Palestinian =/= Hamas. They should be treating this as more of an insurgency; you defeat insurgents by denying them refuge. You deny them refuge by lifting the populace. Publicity wise, they should be conducting themselves beyond the letter of law to rebuild their image with the world. Israel isn't in a position to fight another Yom Kippur or Arab Israeli war- and Arab state intervention isn't out of reality. They should basically do the exact opposite of what they are doing. I'm not an expert- I'm Kipling's "'arf-made recruity". I just know how not to conduct war.
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Oct 27, 2023 03:11
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As far as holding the Israeli govt to account for... any of this, I think many of the usual avenues would be more than a bit too awkward for Western govts to stomach. Sanctions might work, and better than they did previously in some ways, but worse in others. The former (pariah or otherwise) states that they had aligned themselves with have changed enough that I don't think they'd want anything to do with blockade running or sanctions breaking in a broader sense. The French are too enmeshed in the EU to act with any kind of autonomy for long and South Africa is spiraling into failed state status, as examples. The Israeli govt is left with what it has wrought through long affiliation with the USA. While being broadly supported by both the far-right in America and everyone else here, I don't think they'd do so well with the current global crop of right wing govts if the US wasn't heavily involved. The Israeli economy itself is very Westward facing, especially in the tech sector. That's the main strength in the thing and the govt has invested very heavily in that. Israeli companies aren't just providing services, they are part and parcel of production all around the world. Economic sanctions, then, would be the equivalent of "quit hitting yourself". To turn that around, what position would the Israeli govt find themselves in if the will to impose sanctions was there? Economic implosion or compromise? What compromise, outside of Netanyahu's normal ,"Give me what I want, and take what little is left."?
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Oct 27, 2023 05:35
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If Israel wanted to get serious about durable security for its civilians, there's an option on the table that would immediately cut a massive share of Hamas' support out from under it. All it takes is a willingness to neither purge Palestinians from their homeland nor legally treat them as second class citizens. It's functionally free. Remember this at any time the Israeli State elects--for little material upside--not to pay this cost for peace. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 05:56
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quote:All it takes is a willingness to neither purge Palestinians from their homeland nor legally treat them as second class citizens. It's functionally free. I agree with you on first steps but I think you’re underestimating how deep the hatred of Jews goes in the Levant. This same story has played itself out thousands of times already but with swords and sticks instead of precision guided munitions and ultralights. The solution to this has to come from both sides just like the blame lies on both sides. There’s just too much generational violence to have it any other way.
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Oct 27, 2023 11:10
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Borscht posted:I agree with you on first steps but I think you’re underestimating how deep the hatred of Jews goes in the Levant. This same story has played itself out thousands of times already but with swords and sticks instead of precision guided munitions and ultralights. I'm going to vehemently disagree here. Even if you ignore the actual history of the conflict, when there's this huge a power disparity and the Palestinians have absolutely tried every peaceful way to resolve things, the responsibility for ceasing the violence is entirely with the Israelis. Now, if Israel gave all the stolen land back, put some IDF personnel, politicians and settlers in war crimes courts for what they've done, paid some reparations to get the Palestinians back on their feet, and the Palestinians still lobbed rockets at them? Yes, I'd agree, equal blame on both sides. But that's not where things stand.
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Oct 27, 2023 11:27
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Borscht posted:I agree with you on first steps but I think you’re underestimating how deep the hatred of Jews goes in the Levant. This same story has played itself out thousands of times already but with swords and sticks instead of precision guided munitions and ultralights. No
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Oct 27, 2023 13:02
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Borscht posted:Thank you. In that case, how should Israel be proceeding in this war? By not? There is no right way. This historical way is to keep swinging your sword until you die or everyone asking you politely to stop swinging is dead. International relations is a mess because we forgot that.
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Oct 27, 2023 14:16
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm going to vehemently disagree here. Even if you ignore the actual history of the conflict, when there's this huge a power disparity and the Palestinians have absolutely tried every peaceful way to resolve things, the responsibility for ceasing the violence is entirely with the Israelis. Now, if Israel gave all the stolen land back, put some IDF personnel, politicians and settlers in war crimes courts for what they've done, paid some reparations to get the Palestinians back on their feet, and the Palestinians still lobbed rockets at them? Yes, I'd agree, equal blame on both sides. But that's not where things stand. Granting autonomy to the oppressed in the only moral choice they could make and they have decidedly oppressed harder instead at every intersection, leading the the current events.
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Oct 27, 2023 14:21
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