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Pretty clearly that's not what the quote says? It says the US won't draw the red lines for Israel, not that there aren't any.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:25
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knox_harrington posted:Pretty clearly that's not what the quote says? It says the US won't draw the red lines for Israel, not that there aren't any. Logic up there with “died with covid” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 12:42
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What do you mean?
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Oct 28, 2023 12:56
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knox_harrington posted:What do you mean? That its a bullshit semantics cover for an irrelevant distinction. The UN member that has already vetoed security council sanctions stating there are no red lines means that anyone else drawing them will be ignored.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:05
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That Works posted:That its a bullshit semantics cover for an irrelevant distinction. The UN member that has already vetoed security council sanctions stating there are no red lines means that anyone else drawing them will be ignored. The guy literally did not say "there are no red lines for Israel".
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Oct 28, 2023 13:08
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Also the second part of the quote very clearly qualifies the statement.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:18
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bulletsponge13 posted:Al Jeezera is reporting that they were approached by US and Israeli Officials to suppress reporting. Do you have a source for that? Because while I'm seeing AJ reporting his family was killed (which is loving awful in itself), none of their articles seem to be insinuating that his family was targeted specifically because of his reporting or that they were directly approached to tone down the reporting. Handsome Ralph fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 14:18
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knox_harrington posted:The guy literally did not say "there are no red lines for Israel". quote:"We're not drawing red lines for Israel," Kirby said Friday on a call with reporters. "We're going to continue to support them" This means the US will keep sending as many bombs, munitions, and fuel as the Zionists need. He does go on to say that they will have “conversations” but it’s clear the US is backing a genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:29
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BUUNNI posted:This means the US will keep sending as many bombs, munitions, and fuel as the Zionists need. He does go on to say that they will have “conversations” but it’s clear the US is backing a genocide. It really feels like you intentionally omitted the rest of the quote in your block there. "but since the beginning we have, and continue to have, conversations about the manner they are doing this."
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Oct 28, 2023 14:33
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psydude posted:"but since the beginning we have, and continue to have, conversations about the manner they are doing this." What does that mean to you? Because so far they have been getting cover in the UN from the US and I'm not getting the impression the IDF is operating with great restraint here because of outside influence myself.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:36
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psydude posted:It really feels like you intentionally omitted the rest of the quote in your block there. That doesn’t nullify what he said before. He’s clearly using media language to hedge his statement as to not make it so obviously bloodthirsty, our support will continue even while the Zionists genocide people, but we will have a “dialogue” while this happens. Both outcomes, one with a “conversation” and the one without, end up in genocide committed by racist zionists and backed by the US.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:37
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BUUNNI posted:That doesn’t nullify what he said before. He’s clearly using media language to hedge his statement as to not make it so obviously bloodthirsty, our support will continue even while the Zionists genocide people, but we will have a “dialogue” while this happens. Yeah, my take on his statement is "We will talk to them about toning down the genocide, but if they keep doing it and don't take our advice we are going to continue to give them everything they need to kill all the people of Gaza."
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Oct 28, 2023 14:43
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kill me now posted:Yeah, my take on his statement is "We will talk to them about toning down the genocide, but if they keep doing it and don't take our advice we are going to continue to give them everything they need to kill all the people of Gaza." This framework, of course, has been the standard for decades. There is nothing that will make us stop arming and funding Israel, evidently.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:51
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That Works posted:What does that mean to you? I take it as a notable departure from the previous (and historical) position that US support for Israel is unqualified and without question. This is probably about as close as we're gonna get to a public rebuke.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:52
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kill me now posted:Yeah, my take on his statement is "We will talk to them about toning down the genocide, but if they keep doing it and don't take our advice we are going to continue to give them everything they need to kill all the people of Gaza." You're revising what he said so you can react to it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 14:53
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BUUNNI posted:This framework, of course, has been the standard for decades. There is nothing that will make us stop arming and funding Israel, evidently. Historically at least, there have been times where the IDF stopped doing what they wanted to after the US stepped in and told them to stop.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:58
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psydude posted:I take it as a notable departure from the previous (and historical) position that US support for Israel is unqualified and without question. This is probably about as close as we're gonna get to a public rebuke. "we'll continue to support them and talk to them about things" doesn't seem like a rebuke if any to me, but this is getting into reading tea leaves to me at least so not gonna try to press that point against you.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:09
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kill me now posted:Historically at least, there have been times where the IDF stopped doing what they wanted to after the US stepped in and told them to stop. Can you provide me a link that goes over the history of the times the US stepped in? Genuinely curious.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:09
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Handsome Ralph posted:Do you have a source for that? Because while I'm seeing AJ reporting his family was killed (which is loving awful in itself), none of their articles seem to be insinuating that his family was targeted specifically because of his reporting or that they were directly approached to tone down the reporting. https://www.axios.com/2023/10/25/tony-blinken-qatar-israel-hamas His family home was bombed shortly after. After this meeting, his family was killed in a strike. A suspicious number of Palestinian peace activists- particularly non-violent ones- keep getting killed in targeted strikes.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:25
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BUUNNI posted:Can you provide me a link that goes over the history of the times the US stepped in? Genuinely curious. Its usually through their roll in the UN, but the US played a big part in the ending of hostilities in the following conflicts. 1957 Suez crisis 1967 Six day war 1973 Yom Kippur war 1982 Lebanon war and siege of Beirut Not so much lately https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israe...t%20a%20minimum
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Oct 28, 2023 15:28
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I wonder if the IDF spokesperson will ever have a “are we the baddies” moment https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1718240244129059167
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Oct 28, 2023 15:29
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BUUNNI posted:I wonder if the IDF spokesperson will ever have a “are we the baddies” moment Given that the message is being delivered in English via the internet to Arabic speakers in a region where electricity and cell service has been cut off by the people delivering the message... I don't think that message is actually directed at Gazans.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:32
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kill me now posted:Its usually through their roll in the UN, but the US played a big part in the ending of hostilities in the following conflicts. lol there’s No loving way I’m just learning now that the US is sending Israel money to build housing for Zionists while letting housing shortages become a crisis in our own country quote:
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Oct 28, 2023 15:35
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psydude posted:It really feels like you intentionally omitted the rest of the quote in your block there. us gov: make sure you dont kill any innocent people, now move outta the way so the dumptruck full of guns, ammo, and money can unload and then you can do whatever you want with it... just please, only hamas fighters 
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Oct 28, 2023 15:37
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BUUNNI posted:lol there’s No loving way I’m just learning now that the US is sending Israel money to build housing for Zionists while letting housing shortages become a crisis in our own country But something something rapture Armageddon. Seriously, the US' Israel policy is significantly driven by evangelical wing nuts who believe that the nation of Israel is essential for Jesus to come back and rapture all the right people and leave the sinners on a ruined earth
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Oct 28, 2023 15:39
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orange juche posted:But something something rapture Armageddon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism Yep. Before the Reagan administration, US policy regarding Israel was (to a large degree) in the interest of counteracting Soviet influence in the region. Since Reagan began recruiting evangelicals into the Republican party, it's become the primary driver.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:44
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psydude posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism Did they forget the part where ultimately ALL nations must turn against Israel to usher in the next steps in Revalations etc? I always wondered how evangelicals squared that circle but not enough to try and ask my family about it. Any ideas?
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Oct 28, 2023 15:54
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That Works posted:What does that mean to you? It's almost like most of the discussions happen behind closed doors and you're not in the room.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:59
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Godholio posted:It's almost like most of the discussions happen behind closed doors and you're not in the room. It's almost like the US facilitating oppression of palestine has been ongoing throughout our lifetimes and largely accepted as the status quo by US administrations. Reading a very vague statement that declares our full support alongside "we'll talk with them" isn't exactly a strong point towards expecting the IDF to not engage in slaughter in Gaza.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:10
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Entirely correct, but as mentioned it's about as strong a position as you're going to see in the press.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:28
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I'm very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause but I wish BUUNNI would knock it off with blaming Zionism and instead correctly blame the Israel state and its enablers. I understand the anger about what is happening but I am also completely comfortable that a state apparatus of any religious (or non-religious) persuasion, given the free hand that Israel has, would act in a similar way. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 16:58
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bulletsponge13 posted:https://www.axios.com/2023/10/25/tony-blinken-qatar-israel-hamas Someone asked for a source above and I'll copy that. What constitutes a suspicious number of non-violent activists? In Gaza I'm going to assume there's a relatively large number of activists, and they're currently getting bombed into the ground with thousands already killed. I assume most are civilians. Are all of these "targeted" strikes? How does one tell what is targeted and what is not?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:32
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Count Roland posted:Someone asked for a source above and I'll copy that. What constitutes a suspicious number of non-violent activists? In Gaza I'm going to assume there's a relatively large number of activists, and they're currently getting bombed into the ground with thousands already killed. I assume most are civilians. Are all of these "targeted" strikes? How does one tell what is targeted and what is not? Israel's already said they're being far looser with targeting this war. The reasons vary depending on who you ask (no time for planning adequate pinpoint bombing / hamas is embedded in civilian infrastructure anyway / they know what they did and we're going to flatten everything to the ground) but no one in Israel is seriously disputing that civilians are being hit. Their response is that the entirety of North Gaza has been declared a free-fire zone and if anyone's still there it's their fault (or Hamas' fault for not letting them leave). And yes, that is a pretty open-and-shut case of a war crime. As for if Israel specifically targeted AJ journalists or journalists in general, I seriously doubt they have enough intel and free airpower to divert it to whacking reporters. Occam's Razor suggests it's far more likely that Israel is just being extremely free with bombardments and journalists are being caught just like everyone else in the area. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:39
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Lum_ posted:Israel's already said they're being far looser with targeting this war. The reasons vary depending on who you ask (no time for planning adequate pinpoint bombing / hamas is embedded in civilian infrastructure anyway / they know what they did and we're going to flatten everything to the ground) but no one in Israel is seriously disputing that civilians are being hit. Their response is that the entirety of North Gaza has been declared a free-fire zone and if anyone's still there it's their fault (or Hamas' fault for not letting them leave). Well yes obviously civilians are being bombed in large numbers, yes that's a warcrime. What I was asking about was OPs implication that the journalist's family was targeted as some sort of intimidation tactic after AJ was pressured to change its reporting.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:43
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Count Roland posted:Well yes obviously civilians are being bombed in large numbers, yes that's a warcrime. I edited my post to address my thought on that but I'll add that Israel's actual response to AJ's reporting is to ban them from the country. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769432
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Oct 28, 2023 17:44
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Lum_ posted:I edited my post to address my thought on that but I'll add that Israel's actual response to AJ's reporting is to ban them from the country. lovely, but in line with Israel's perpetual control over media within Israel. In short, their general stranglehold there makes it difficult for any effective reporting - and at the same time, they're supposed to be our source of truth/accurate information (And clearly aren't).
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Oct 28, 2023 17:48
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Count Roland posted:Well yes obviously civilians are being bombed in large numbers, yes that's a warcrime. OK, you can disregard the connection if you feel, but it appears pretty obvious to me that they killed his family after having tried to apply pressure not only through their people, but the US on AJ reporting. Maybe I'm a naysayer, but given the Israeli conduct and the suspicious timing, it seems clear to me. Not trying to sound dismissive or dickish.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:39
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orange juche posted:But something something rapture Armageddon. I'm never going to forget the "The evangelicals know I'm doing this [escalation with Iran] for them, right?" moment. That Works posted:Did they forget the part where ultimately ALL nations must turn against Israel to usher in the next steps in Revalations etc? A cornerstone of my political reading is that people are going to do what they want to do. A whole and complete reading of text has not prevented people from cherry picking whatever lets them do what they want, and that's not going to change any time soon. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 18:54
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Electric Wrigglies posted:I'm very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause but I wish BUUNNI would knock it off with blaming Zionism and instead correctly blame the Israel state and its enablers. I understand the anger about what is happening but I am also completely comfortable that a state apparatus of any religious (or non-religious) persuasion, given the free hand that Israel has, would act in a similar way. What a trite and meaningless distinction (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 19:04
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"The Israeli State and its enablers" potentially includes US-domestic political sects that enable the ongoing policy of Palestinian displacement and second rate citizenship. The US sits on the Security Council, so it's challenging to separate US domestic political issues from its foreign policy outcomes. As these atrocities continue to flow from recent days and we now stand at the precipice of the land invasion of the few places on this planet where Palestinians are still allowed exist, I'm seeing previous few differences between the Palestinian struggle for the right to continue to exist and other historical peoples' struggles for their right to continue to exist in the face of a genocidal foe. Despite how many times genocides like this have played out in history, we do not seem to be prepared or willing to prevent yet another, and that's really really sad.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:12
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