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PurpleXVI posted:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/30/israeli-soldiers-disguise-west-bank-hospital-hamas/ Yes and yes.
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Jan 31, 2024 18:29
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That's why lawyers get so insistent on all those other words, like special military operation. Imagine the bad optics if wars started being talked about like clear categorical things instead of ~vibes~ on terror
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Jan 31, 2024 18:41
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vuk83 posted:Yes and yes. No war was declared between recognized sovereign states. The accepted term; I think, for those gunned down is "enemy combatant" (which in US parlance, actually means "unlawful combatant" but not protected in the same way unlawful combatants are provided for under the Geneva convention).
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Jan 31, 2024 18:43
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PurpleXVI posted:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/30/israeli-soldiers-disguise-west-bank-hospital-hamas/ Technically, which is the worst kind of point, they did not breach a treaty to which they are a signatory of. Technically they're not signatories of provisions I and II of Geneva Convention of 1949, which deals with protection of civilians in a combat zone. Though, they probably still breached the conventions by sheep dipping their soldiers as a protected class of non-combatant (doctors). Should they be brought up on war crimes charges? Absolutely because sheep dipping your soldiers as doctors makes doctors a target in the eyes of your opponent. Like holy gently caress that just flies in the face of any sort of allowable conduct. (The US is also not a signatory of provisions I and II, but I don't think we would sheep dip soldiers as doctors to carry out a hit, or we'd be smart enough to not get caught in 4k doing it)
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Jan 31, 2024 18:45
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Just for added fun, the specific crime is “perfidy.”
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Jan 31, 2024 18:51
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Electric Wrigglies posted:No war was declared between recognized sovereign states. The accepted term; I think, for those gunned down is "enemy combatant" (which in US parlance, actually means "unlawful combatant" but not protected in the same way unlawful combatants are provided for under the Geneva convention). If the IDF wants to use that parlance, it still doesn’t really work because it’s a raid on occupied land that Israel claims ownership of, since Israel does not recognize or treat Palestinian territory as independent. So then it’s the Israeli military dressing up as doctors and civilians to go do extrajudicial killings inside a hospital on land Israel occupies? That’s the point I made when I posted the bbc news story a couple pages back.
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Jan 31, 2024 19:15
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They should absolutely face war crimes trials, but won't for the same reason the US never subjected it's own troops to war crimes trials after WW2. It's absolutely poo poo because it exposes the fallacy of the geneva conventions (the victors aren't war criminals, because they write the history books. The IDF/Hamas power balance is such that yeah, the IDF are the inevitable victors in this conflict, but a poo poo load of Palestinians are going to get killed for no reason other than being Palestinians, and that inflicted misery is in itself a war crime)
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Jan 31, 2024 19:22
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orange juche posted:Technically, which is the worst kind of point, they did not breach a treaty to which they are a signatory of. Technically they're not signatories of provisions I and II of Geneva Convention of 1949, which deals with protection of civilians in a combat zone. Though, they probably still breached the conventions by sheep dipping their soldiers as a protected class of non-combatant (doctors). We did used CIA disguised as a vaccine team to confirm the DNA of UBL; I have little doubt we've done the same poo poo as the Israelis in the past, but we didn't get caught/no one cared enough/no one could do anything.
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Jan 31, 2024 19:56
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bulletsponge13 posted:We did used CIA disguised as a vaccine team to confirm the DNA of UBL; I have little doubt we've done the same poo poo as the Israelis in the past, but we didn't get caught/no one cared enough/no one could do anything. That falls under espionage/spy rules and is also why spies caught in the act do not get POW protection and may be charged as criminals. ICRC posted:
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Jan 31, 2024 20:01
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Absolutely a war crime, absolutely deplorable, absolutely nothing will come of it.
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Jan 31, 2024 20:10
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PurpleXVI posted:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/30/israeli-soldiers-disguise-west-bank-hospital-hamas/ Israel should just grant its assassins MD status, that way they would not be in disguise when looking like doctors.
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Feb 1, 2024 07:59
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mlmp08 posted:If the IDF wants to use that parlance, it still doesn’t really work because it’s a raid on occupied land that Israel claims ownership of, since Israel does not recognize or treat Palestinian territory as independent. I agree with your interpretation, my point is that the interpretation by the powers that be (essentially the US, nothing is happening in the ICC etc without US ok or at least acquiesce) of what happened will be done in a way as to whitewash IDF activities as "legitimate, practically legal even if not pedantically legal". Pretty much what Orange Juche says.
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Feb 1, 2024 09:15
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Even if they’re right about the territory being occupied, then the International Human Rights Law would apply there and the assassination itself would be illegal.
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Feb 1, 2024 12:57
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"It's only illegal if they catch you" is certainly a choice
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Feb 1, 2024 15:54
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:"It's only illegal if they catch you" is certainly a choice its the US approach, isn't it?
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Feb 1, 2024 16:29
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RFC2324 posted:its the US approach, isn't it? No. The US approach is “Ok you caught us, so what? Cry to the UN about it, we’ll just kick sand their collective faces and veto anything that tries to hold us accountable.”
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Feb 1, 2024 17:20
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Nystral posted:No. The US approach is “Ok you caught us, so what? Cry to the UN about it, we’ll just kick sand their collective faces and veto anything that tries to hold us accountable.” Don't forget that we passed a law that threatens/'authorizes' military action against the ICC if they go after Americans.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:59
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:"It's only illegal if they catch you" is certainly a choice The foundation of every legal system in the world is the threat of physical force. Edit: With legal agreements between countries it obviously gets a bit more... gluey? There are lots and lots of layers of agreements and trade-offs to every situation. Aertuun fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Feb 2, 2024 |
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Feb 1, 2024 22:22
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:"It's only illegal if they catch you" is certainly a choice I mean that's ultimately how all law works. Without detection and enforcement, any given law is completely toothless.
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Feb 1, 2024 23:54
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PurpleXVI posted:It's funny that this article spends so much time fellating the IDF for their bravery and heroics, casually mentions that "oh, whoops, they actually completely gently caress up actually addressing the core causes of Palestinian attacks on them" and then just breezes past to blowing the IDF some more. Kind of paints their "oh lmao they murder a bunch of civilians and gently caress up any chance of peace utterly" as just "well that's what any soldier would do without someone around to remind them not to "You're all a bunch of genocidal sociopaths and racists" isn't an effective tone for a newspaper to strike when its competitors and government are framing the situation as an existential war.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:07
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" rather than the result of a deeply hosed up culture.
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I confess that I don't really care what the "effective" tone of a newspaper is, what I care about is whether they're honest or dishonest. If being "effective" means lying and trying to politely wallpaper over fascists' crimes with "oh but they're so brave and heroic!" then said newspaper can go rot in hell and I will not miss them.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:22
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PurpleXVI posted:I confess that I don't really care what the "effective" tone of a newspaper is, what I care about is whether they're honest or dishonest. Neat. But since we're not in fairytale land, they'll probably continue to exist as the least-awful paper in the country, and hopefully continue to plant seeds of reasons why the war might need to cool down.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:25
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https://www.reuters.com/business/japans-itochu-end-cooperation-with-israels-elbit-over-gaza-war-2024-02-05/quote:Japan's Itochu to end cooperation with Israel's Elbit amid Gaza war I'm surprised, but not unpleasantly, that the ICJ decision is actually having some economic consequences. Fingers crossed more companies will follow suit.
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Feb 6, 2024 23:13
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Also surprised. Hopefully more will follow. Or at least restrictions on businesses in occupied territory. That seemed like a no brainer but I guess one has to start somewhere.
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Feb 7, 2024 18:53
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Very interesting, quite long piece of reporting from the guardian about how the Israeli invasion has had its messaging heavily massaged at CNN https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-israel-bias
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Feb 8, 2024 03:00
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I don't exactly know how to word this. There's a story about a 6 year old little girl dying, it seems to be hitting a nerve. It is with me. I'm sharing it here since, I guess, keeping updated with evolving public sentiment and such. Twenty five thousand people have died is what I heard last. We don't often see pictures with statistics. There's a picture of Hind, at the top. They were evacuating as per army instruction, came under fire, tanks. There's a phonecall to 911 which is answered by the office in the west bank, line cuts out. They call back, and a small, scared, voice answers. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68180642 No one survives. Neither do the two paramedics or their ambulance who answered the call. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68261286 They are shooting civilians. ThisIsJohnWayne fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 04:12
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:I don't exactly know how to word this. There's a story about a 6 year old little girl dying, it seems to be hitting a nerve. It is with me. I'm not one to normally say this, but thank you for giving warning with your link and description. No Sarcasm intended even if it sounds that way.
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Feb 11, 2024 04:42
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Those links are a great way to ruin your day  I’m gonna go hug my dog
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Feb 11, 2024 06:19
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:I don't exactly know how to word this. There's a story about a 6 year old little girl dying, it seems to be hitting a nerve. It is with me. poo poo. Just, man, gently caress. I really, really do not like my transitive complicity in this (I am an American).
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Feb 11, 2024 06:56
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Currently it's about an Argentine dirty war (which lasted the better part of a decade) in about 4 months.
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Feb 11, 2024 07:03
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It is impressive how Israel managed to annihilate any sympathy they may have garnered from the October attack. Not only so quickly, but also so utterly. Just gotta be as evil as possible.
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Feb 11, 2024 07:38
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Kchama posted:It is impressive how Israel managed to annihilate any sympathy they may have garnered from the October attack. Not only so quickly, but also so utterly. Just gotta be as evil as possible. I would caution against underappreciating how much support the secular state of Israel still has in western populations and, particularly, circles of power.
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Feb 11, 2024 07:46
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Potato Salad posted:I would caution against underappreciating how much support the secular state of Israel still has in western populations and, particularly, circles of power. Well, they definitely annihilated MY sympathy, at least.
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Feb 11, 2024 07:54
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Yeah, that story about the little girl hit me in a way that these stories usually don't. Absolutely hosed up. https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1756438313899024862 Content: IDF soldiers on TV posing with items looted from Palestinian homes and bragging about how they're going to display them back at the base. What the gently caress?
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Feb 11, 2024 11:36
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Lots of talk right now about Israel's planned offensive of Raffa, where most(?) of the population of Gaza is now crammed into. There's talk of an "evacuation" of civilians by Israel. It sounds bad enough that even close allies like the US and UK are talking out against it. Bibi is taking loudly of "victory". Is there any details to this so called evacuation? Evacuate Raffa and send the people into the ruins of Gaza?
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Feb 12, 2024 00:52
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Count Roland posted:Lots of talk right now about Israel's planned offensive of Raffa, where most(?) of the population of Gaza is now crammed into. There's talk of an "evacuation" of civilians by Israel. It sounds bad enough that even close allies like the US and UK are talking out against it. Bibi is taking loudly of "victory". Probably more like "evacuate the air with a thermobaric" is what they're thinking.
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Feb 12, 2024 00:58
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Count Roland posted:Is there any details to this so called evacuation? Evacuate Raffa and send the people into the ruins of Gaza?
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Feb 12, 2024 01:01
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There's construction happening on the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing. Many outlets are saying there's a wall being built. Al Jazeera goes farther, saying it's a refugee camp quote:The new compound is part of contingency plans if large numbers of Palestinians manage to cross into Egypt and could accommodate more than 100,000 people, The Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday, citing Egyptian officials. They cite WSJ but I can't find that original article nor any other outlets saying this. Egypt has been very vocal about not taking in any Palestinians so this seems like an odd move. Does anyone have more information here?
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Feb 16, 2024 13:37
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Count Roland posted:There's construction happening on the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing. Many outlets are saying there's a wall being built. You plan for the worst option. Egypt is refusing to take refugees but if Israel starts bombing the refugees huddled on the border they'll likely let them in, at the same time Egypt has said they will suspend the Camp David Accords if Israel does anything to the Palestinians on the border. Suspending the Camp David Accords would be a major step towards another war between Israel and its neighbors. Expect to see Egyptian troop movements in concert with the building of this border camp, because Egypt has basically issued an ultimatum to Israel now. orange juche fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Feb 16, 2024 |
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Feb 16, 2024 15:22
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orange juche posted:You plan for the worst option. Egypt is refusing to take refugees but if Israel starts bombing the refugees huddled on the border they'll likely let them in, at the same time Egypt has said they will suspend the Camp David Accords if Israel does anything to the Palestinians on the border. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-786635 quote:But on Monday, Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry denied the AP report and said that Egypt would uphold the its accord with Israel, which the countries signed in 1979. The Egyptian military is basically a patronage network in uniform with an army that appears impressive in terms of manpower and equipment, but it is WOEFULLY unprepared to fight any kind of major war that isn't against its unarmed and defenseless people and its bloated officer corps is smart enough to know that. They are not going to risk their position of prestige and perks by getting the poo poo kicked out of them yet again. If anything, if Israel displaces Rafah into Egypt, the Egyptian government will throw a temper tantrum and get the US to pay them another billion dollars a year in
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Feb 16, 2024 17:28
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