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Irony Be My Shield posted:And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:29
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dadrips posted:Not really, collective guilt is the same thing no matter how you want to frame it and holding an entire polity with a population of two million accountable for the actions of a subset of those two million isn't what I'd call the actions of a moral country. Hamas' actions were evil, but Israel's response somehow manages to be even moreso. I think Irony be my Shield meant it lessens the rhetorical and persuasive position of those condemning Israeli atrocities against Gaza. Which I think is unfortunately and fairly clearly true if one takes a brief look at the state of public discussion. Morally and ethically I agree with you that it changes nothing about Israel's conduct.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:36
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Irony Be My Shield posted:And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate. dadrips posted:Not really, collective guilt is the same thing no matter how you want to frame it and holding an entire polity with a population of two million accountable for the actions of a subset of those two million isn't what I'd call the actions of a moral country. Hamas' actions were evil, but Israel's response somehow manages to be even moreso.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:36
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Kagrenak posted:I think Irony be my Shield meant it lessens the rhetorical and persuasive position of those condemning Israeli atrocities against Gaza. Which I think is unfortunately and fairly clearly true if one takes a brief look at the state of public discussion. Morally and ethically I agree with you that it changes nothing about Israel's conduct.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:39
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Xander77 posted:Yeah.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:41
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Majorian posted:And, might I add, when all legal/nonviolent routes to liberation have been closed off by the group in power. So are you or are you not defending the slaughter of civilians as necessary? I feel like I can say with a great deal of confidence no one here is demanding non violence or legality so stop shadow boxing with arguments no one is making and telling us what you think other people mean. What do you mean, and what argument are you making? The post you're quoting is defending the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, including children. The attempt to obscure that by saying "inevitable" is immediately belied by the pivot to holding up a historical slaughter of women and children as a gotcha I can't possibly condemn. And no, I have no interest in engaging with terrible goon analogies and the inevitable hair splitting that goes with it so we can play the game of how much can we torture language in order to pretend the indefensible thing being said is actually the same thing as this other thing I'd rather defend instead. Stop making inferences and analogies and defend the actual event if you think it was justified. Edit: and for the record the Israeli government loving sucks, Hamas loving sucks, and the normal people who are just trying to live their lives are the ones suffering. It's fuckheads all the way down and if you feel a need to pick a team and downplay the atrocities of the other there is something loving wrong with you. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:43
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I maintain that Hamas had already hit on a good strategy that they had the power to repeat to a much greater degree here - capturing soldiers. Creating another hostage crisis would've been a very effective strategy if they hadn't also performed atrocities so unspeakably horrible that almost everyone in Israel now wants nothing more than to see every member of Hamas (and in many cases, the Gazans they see as collectively responsible) perish in agony. And also alienated many international voices who would've otherwise spoken out against excessive Israeli reprisals. And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate. If Hamas had only hit military and administration targets (courts, civil service buildings etc), and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the attack would be being lauded almost globally for being a brilliant resistance coup. The common view of them globally would be of something similar to Mandela's ANC everywhere apart from the rare most pro-Israel regions. Instead Hamas raped, tourtured and murdered large numbers of civilians - and recorded some of it on video. And kidnapped 100+ and threatened to start executing them one by one. And even worse, did it to civilians from all over the globe - confirmed Americans, British, French, German, Irish, Thai, Filipino, Nepalese and more. So we've had front page news around the world humanizing and localising the victims, with photos of young attractive female victims in particular that the media love. So now Hamas are basically ISIS in most people's eyes. In years to come the targeting will be looked back on as an absolutely massive error. Its morally indefensible doing these things to civilians (regardless of the Israeli apartheid state), but its also just strategically very very stupid.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:44
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Kagrenak posted:I think Irony be my Shield meant it lessens the rhetorical and persuasive position of those condemning Israeli atrocities against Gaza. Which I think is unfortunately and fairly clearly true if one takes a brief look at the state of public discussion. Morally and ethically I agree with you that it changes nothing about Israel's conduct. Hamas' actions may mean that that argument convinces marginally fewer people in the Global North, but let's be real - the widespread dehumanization of Muslims has already done its damage. If Hamas had just stuck to taking hostages, hitting military targets, etc, and Bibi still responded with devastating collective punishment against Gaza, I don't think the Israeli government would enjoy any less support from the U.S. and its other allies. I think they'd still be calling it "worse than 9/11," (as multiple media sources have) braying for a holy war (as Lindsey Graham has), etc. Blut posted:If Hamas had only hit military and administration targets (courts, civil service buildings etc), and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the attack would be being lauded almost globally for being a brilliant resistance coup. The common view of them globally would be of something similar to Mandela's ANC everywhere apart from the rare most pro-Israel regions. I'd like to believe this would be true, but I don't think it would be. I was in highschool when the attack on the USS Cole happened, and I clearly remember that the media response was basically what we'd see after 9/11, except at a smaller scale. I also remember how little coverage (much less praise) the Great March of Return received in 2018-19, and especially how little coverage the IDF's violent response to that nonviolent protest received. \/\/\/yeah, exactly, it's important to take into account the role of domestic politics in this. Something that punctures the myth of the invincible Israeli national security state so thoroughly was always going to receive an absurdly over-the-top response regardless of how many civilians died. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I maintain that Hamas had already hit on a good strategy that they had the power to repeat to a much greater degree here - capturing soldiers. Creating another hostage crisis would've been a very effective strategy if they hadn't also performed atrocities so unspeakably horrible that almost everyone in Israel now wants nothing more than to see every member of Hamas (and in many cases, the Gazans they see as collectively responsible) perish in agony. And also alienated many international voices who would've otherwise spoken out against excessive Israeli reprisals. And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate. It is undeniably better morally and ethically but I'm not convinced the response from Israel and the world at large would be much different. Obviously the media coverage and the tone of the discussion would be markedly different but ultimately if an attack of this scale would have taken place and not killed civilians, I think the Israeli government would still feel horribly humiliated, and try to reestablish the image of the Gaza prison as impenetrable and their control over the country as unquestionable with the kind of bombing campaign we are seeing now.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:44
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I personally think that it's delusional to believe that Hamas was one clean offensive away from winning hearts and minds. My personal belief is that the intense focus from the west on their assault comes entirely from the fact that they had a successful assault at all. Without the civillian deaths we'd still get the usual suspects, but they'd be focused more generically on how Hamas is threatening jews. I'm also skeptical on how much international damage this has actually caused. China started out both-sidesing but now their foreign minister is strongly coming out against the occupation. Russia's second most popular modern leader immediately came out against Israel's response and Putin & his cabinet are warming up to denouncement. Latin America is split largely along west-east polar lines (and probably would be in the clean offensive timeline). Within the Middle East the West's instant full throated support of genocide has thoroughly disgusted the average Arab far more than the initial attack, and their leaders are sending out pundits to gauge the public's appetite for public support of Palestine. South Africa denounced the attack but still stands anti-occupation; Apartheid imagery still bleeds strongly. You can denounce the attack on the grounds of civillian casualties, but I really don't think it has mattered much politically outside of countries that were never, ever going to take the side of Palestinian resistance. And even then, reception has been pretty tired; it seems younger generations aren't as easily moved past their understanding of Palestine's situation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 22:54
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Blut posted:If Hamas had only hit military and administration targets (courts, civil service buildings etc), and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the attack would be being lauded almost globally for being a brilliant resistance coup. The common view of them globally would be of something similar to Mandela's ANC everywhere apart from the rare most pro-Israel regions. Mandela and the ANC were not viewed as they now are until after the end of apartheid. I don't think there is any real basis to believe Hamas would be treated similarly to the ANC if they were only to strike military targets. The U.S. was still making Mandela get special permission to enter the country as late as 2008. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-usa-mandela/rice-wants-to-end-travel-curb-on-mandela-and-anc-idUSN0920168620080409 The global recognition of the legitimacy of his struggle came after the fact, not during.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:54
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Jarmak posted:I think the Israeli lobby is in some ways like the gun lobby. They're very well funded, which tends to give lobbying groups outsized influence, but more importantly they represent a position with minority support but a disproportionate number of single issue voters. This is such a bullshit comparison considering the "Israel lobby" has differing viewpoints within them and many different organizations from Hillel to the ADL. They're also the organizations defending Jews and synagogues. Yes there are far right elements, but there are also progressive voices among these groups too. Just like in Israel. You might as well compare gay rights groups to the gun lobby if you're trying to paint them as a single issue voters.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:00
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:01
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah that's exactly right. I fully agree that Israel is doing terrible things but it takes effort to debunk their defence that they're bombing Hamas members and any civilian casualties were being used as human shields. No such effort is needed to demonstrate that the massacres Hamas carried out were reprehensible. The total seige of Gaza is impossible to defend and takes no effort to 'debunk'. The median age in Gaza is eighteen. Nearly half the population wasn't even alive the last time the people were allowed to vote for their leadership, let alone able to participate in electing a government. How can they be held to some grotesque account for the actions of Hamas? Brucolac fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:02
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Jarmak posted:So are you or are you not defending the slaughter of civilians as necessary? I feel like I can say with a great deal of confidence no one here is demanding non violence or legality so stop shadow boxing with arguments no one is making and telling us what you think other people mean. What do you mean, and what argument are you making? I'm not defending it as necessary in this case. I think Hamas' killing of civilians was morally and ethically abhorrent, and also not at all productive. This isn't the first time I've said that in this thread, either. I don't believe I've ever claimed that anyone here is demanding nonviolence or legality, but I have been responding to a lot of posts erroneously conflating the contextualization of violence in liberation movements in the past with justification of violence. Those two things are not the same.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:02
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Mandela and the ANC were not viewed as they now are until after the end of apartheid. I don't think there is any real basis to believe Hamas would be treated similarly to the ANC if they were only to strike military targets. The U.S. was still making Mandela get special permission to enter the country as late as 2008. In the 1980s almost everywhere outside of Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK viewed the ANC as occasionally going too far (the odd civilian bombing etc) but generally as having the moral highground, and being right to fight for their freedom. There were regular public protests in Western democracies that were a more popular equivalent of today's BDS movement. That would have been a realistic, attainable, level of global support for Hamas - and could have achieved things long term, as the public opinion driven sanctions on South Africa did. Instead Hamas have gone out murdering babies, raping festival goers, and kidnapping/murdering international civilians and condemned themselves to ISIS level revulsion. Like even aside from the very real huge moral issues with this approach they took, theres just no defending it on a strategic level. Attacking military/administration targets instead would have cost them nothing, and would have had only more positive impact for the Palestinian cause.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:02
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Hasn’t almost every major attack on Israel been on a Jewish holiday? You’d think they’d learn by now. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 23:09
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Neurolimal posted:I personally think that it's delusional to believe that Hamas was one clean offensive away from winning hearts and minds. My personal belief is that the intense focus from the west on their assault comes entirely from the fact that they had a successful assault at all. Without the civillian deaths we'd still get the usual suspects, but they'd be focused more generically on how Hamas is threatening jews. I think the macro response would be pretty much the same, sure, but there are internal politics within countries. I don't think the West would be purity testing politicians with Palestinian sympathies if the attack had been along more military lines. The more interesting question to me is what impact it would have on Israel's internal politics. The Israeli far right is energized and emboldened in their calls for genocide, but that's just business as usual for them; the broader part of the public seems to be furious at the government for letting these atrocities happen and the credibility of hardline strongman politics is in question, although it remains to be seen whether this will lead to any change. Would the backlash against the government be as visceral if the attack had only hit military targets? That's not a question I'm qualified to answer, but I think it's vastly more relevant than wondering whether the West would bang the STAND WITH ISRAEL drum.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:11
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Blut posted:In the 1980s almost everywhere outside of Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK viewed the ANC as occasionally going too far (the odd civilian bombing etc) but generally as having the moral highground, and being right to fight for their freedom. There were regular public protests in Western democracies that were a more popular equivalent of today's BDS movement. The problem is, when the leaders of those Western democracies, 1, support the apartheid state in question to the hilt (as Reagan and Thatcher did), and 2, don't have to worry about being voted out of office over that support (also the case with Reagan and Thatcher), the outcome is pretty much the same: continued unwavering support for the apartheid regime by the Western governments. Anti-Apartheid Movement strategies like normalizing boycotting and divestment from South Africa worked in part because they did not have to contend with the virulent strain of Islamophobia that has so thoroughly tainted Western politics post-9/11. Nor did they have to contend with BDS efforts being made explicitly illegal in a majority of U.S. states, while current BDS efforts do have to face that barrier. This is not to say that public opinion towards Hamas or the Palestinian cause would not have fared better had Hamas not committed these atrocities over the past several days. My point is just that I don't think that difference in public opinion would have led to much of a different material outcome on the ground, particularly in the short-term. \/\/\/yeah, it's always heartening to see countries that have been victims of colonial oppression and outright genocide show solidarity with countries currently experiencing both.\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:19
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:19
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PT6A posted:To make it remotely comparable, the first example would have to be changed to "you set a bomb under your mafia rival's car, knowing it will go off as they drive their kid to school." Because Israel killing Palestinian children isn't really an accident or an error on any level. They know what will be the fruit of their blockade of Gaza, they know what will happen when they level an apartment building or a hospital, and they choose to do it. They have decided just as surely as any Hamas militant, to kill a child. Why should you or I or anyone else care how the deed is done? Sure, I can go with your example instead. Blowing up a car with a remote detonator with a mafia don and his kid in the car is hosed up and unacceptable, but the perpetrator will still not be seen the same by the vast, vast majority of people as compared to John Wayne Gacy. If the first murderer got out of prison 30 years later at age 60, many people would shrug. The murderer in the second situation would never, ever get out of prison. The same way that you can see a bombing shown on news, even if it kills hundreds of people (see: 9/11 footage shown everywhere, Boston marathon bombing videos shown on mainstream media front pages, etc) but you will never see a mainstream news site show pictures or videos of the aftermath of a serial killer's crimes, or ISIS beheadings, or anything Hamas just did. You'd have to go to whatever the successor of LiveLeak is, which I don't know and don't want to know.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:21
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https://twitter.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1711486587438092626?t=-I8GtUPHBZHpWBNisjqUBg&s=19 Important message from an important Jewish voice (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 23:28
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Blut posted:In the 1980s almost everywhere outside of Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK viewed the ANC as occasionally going too far (the odd civilian bombing etc) but generally as having the moral highground, and being right to fight for their freedom. There were regular public protests in Western democracies that were a more popular equivalent of today's BDS movement. That would have been a realistic, attainable, level of global support for Hamas - and could have achieved things long term, as the public opinion driven sanctions on South Africa did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90UKrrp5JG4 BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:38
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DelilahFlowers posted:Important message from an important Jewish voice That's an old video and considering he then went on to say that Russia has a historic Right to invade Ukraine, I'm more inclined to say that he's just a contrarian campist crank.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:44
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://twitter.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1711486587438092626?t=-I8GtUPHBZHpWBNisjqUBg&s=19 This feels like we are missing a lot of context?
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Oct 12, 2023 23:46
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7c Nickel posted:That's an old video and considering he then went on to say that Russia has a historic Right to invade Ukraine, I'm more inclined to say that he's just a contrarian campist crank. I don't think that changes anything he says abd seems off topic
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Oct 12, 2023 23:47
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon Very bad.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:49
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Neurolimal posted:I personally think that it's delusional to believe that Hamas was one clean offensive away from winning hearts and minds. My personal belief is that the intense focus from the west on their assault comes entirely from the fact that they had a successful assault at all. Without the civillian deaths we'd still get the usual suspects, but they'd be focused more generically on how Hamas is threatening jews. Let us know if you find anyone who thinks Hamas was one clean offense away from winning hearts and minds because I don't think I've seen that in the thread so far. I'm not sure why it's relevant? The morality of slaughtering children is not dependent on getting sufficient credit for not slaughtering children. It's not the sort of thing where lack of sufficient political advantage means you can just say gently caress it and torch a few daycares because you're going to get yelled at anyway. Likewise this idea that in order to condemn this attack we most have a viable alternative for successful liberation is nonsense. This attack is not a viable path to liberation, it's achieved nothing but more suffering and death. I'm not sure there's anyone on this planet who can give you a viable path to Palestinian liberation, regardless of it's morality. If anyone wants to make the necessity argument for this my expectation would there better be a really ironclad argument for why wanton slaughter of civilians is going to actually achieve that. You don't just get to default to an orgy of violence that achieves nothing for the Palestinian people just because no one has a better idea.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:50
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DelilahFlowers posted:
Ah yes, the holocaust denier and Charlie-Hebdo-Had-It-Coming guy. You sure that’s an important voice in this conversation. Really sure? Majorian posted:
He famously has platformed them in the name of “both sides” clown poo poo. Not all deniers claim it never happened… Many of them say “Well if it did, it wasn’t that big of a deal”. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Chillmatic fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:51
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7c Nickel posted:That's an old video and considering he then went on to say that Russia has a historic Right to invade Ukraine, I'm more inclined to say that he's just a contrarian campist crank. You're free to say that, but I don't think it's fair. I'm glad that, as the son of Auschwitz survivors, he is taking the right lessons from his parents' suffering and speaking out against an ongoing genocide - and one that is being carried out by a country that claims to represent his interests as a Jewish person, no less. I don't agree with him on Ukraine, and I think he's at the very least inconsistent (even outright hypocritical) in how he applies his principles when talking about that war. But I don't doubt for a second that he believes very deeply in opposing Israeli apartheid. Chillmatic posted:Ah yes, the holocaust denier and Charlie-Hebdo-Had-It-Coming guy. I very, very strongly doubt that Norm Finkelstein, the son of Auschwitz survivors, has ever denied the Holocaust. quote:He famously has platformed them in the name of “both sides” clown poo poo. Not all deniers claim it never happened… Many of them say “Well if it did, it wasn’t that big of a deal”. Again, he is the son of Auschwitz survivors. He does not deny that the Holocaust happened, nor has he ever suggested that it wasn't a big deal. Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:52
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://twitter.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1711486587438092626?t=-I8GtUPHBZHpWBNisjqUBg&s=19 The gently caress is this twitter account?
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Oct 12, 2023 23:58
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Chillmatic posted:Ah yes, the holocaust denier and Charlie-Hebdo-Had-It-Coming guy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 23:59
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 00:05
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DelilahFlowers posted:This is a disgusting post and I feel that you should reflect and come back before making such ghoulish accusations of a jewish person with survivor parents Nah, reflect these nuts you absolute numpty.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:07
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://twitter.com/HotSpotHotSpot/status/1711486587438092626?t=-I8GtUPHBZHpWBNisjqUBg&s=19 That clip is years old.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:17
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frytechnician posted:That clip is years old. 2004, it looks like. DelilahFlowers, you should look into how it was you came across that tweet.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:19
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i fly airplanes posted:This is such a bullshit comparison considering the "Israel lobby" has differing viewpoints within them and many different organizations from Hillel to the ADL. They're also the organizations defending Jews and synagogues. Yes there are far right elements, but there are also progressive voices among these groups too. Just like in Israel. I missed this because I was phone posting. I was not talking about any sort of generic "Jewish Lobby", I was speaking purely in the context of the I/P conflict and support for Israeli's genocidal bullshit. Maybe I should have just said AIPAC. I apologize if I worded that like poo poo.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:20
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frytechnician posted:That clip is years old.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:20
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In the UK, the Daily Telegraph has taken the decision to public the pictures of the murdered babies on page 3 and 4 as an editorial decision, and it just feels like it's going to be impossible to avoid the gore going forward when it's being publically published like that.
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Oct 13, 2023 00:24
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 00:25
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