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Kassad
Nov 11, 2005

It's about time.


Nilbop posted:

Nobody is pretending it isn't being done in response to the multiple beheadings and bombings. In fact both the government and media are making that link at every opportunity.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's openly racist and I'm not trying to defend it, sorry if it came across that way. It's just that the bill will obscure it.

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Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011




Nilbop posted:

Nobody is pretending it isn't being done in response to the multiple beheadings and bombings. In fact both the government and media are making that link at every opportunity.

Yeah, that might have been the one beheading too many.

Nilbop
Jun 5, 2004

Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...


Kassad posted:

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's openly racist and I'm not trying to defend it, sorry if it came across that way. It's just that the bill will obscure it.

No need to apologize, I wasn't attacking you. I think we got our wires crossed there. But to be fair, I also don't agree that these proposals are openly racist.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012



It's really unfortunate that liberalism lost out to fascism on the last electoral race, we really could have seen a change in the approach to ethnic relations. A much needed injection of pragmatic, sensible policy.

What's that you say? It was the liberal who won?

Lord Stimperor
Jun 13, 2018

I'm a lovable meme.



Don't blame me, I voted for the moralists,

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013


It's okay, by this point it is too late for the pebbles to vote.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011



Phlegmish posted:

Yeah, that might have been the one beheading too many.

well as we all know, nothing makes a population less susceptible to radicalization quite like cracking down on the mere concept of their existence, so I'm sure the next year will be very peaceful and calm thanks to this nonsense!

Also even if the weird kid number thing isn't focusing on Muslims the rest of that poo poo is wild and clearly anti-Muslim explicitly. A national certification for imams that can be revoked? A really vague rear end 'ban foriegn interference' in Muslim groups thing that super is gonna be used badly?

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012


But have you considered that maybe Muslims in France weren't discriminated against enough?

Nilbop
Jun 5, 2004

Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...


quote:

A national certification for imams that can be revoked?

By the French Council of the Muslim Faith, not the government of France. This feels like a smart move; local mosques were widely reported as the place where radical imams were preaching and nothing was being done about it, and empowering the CFCM shows that the government is working with them.

It shouldn't have to be said that the majority of Muslims support policies like these because they don't want their mosques overrun with radical preachers and zealots.

quote:

A really vague rear end 'ban foriegn interference' in Muslim groups thing that super is gonna be used badly?

This will almost certainly be a moritorium on radical extra-state parties from sponsoring or investing in mosques.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012



This is fairly loving nuts guys. Like this is the loving punchard system of Nazi germany combined with the Anti-Uighur Operations within the PRC.


Next they will require your phone's Pin# / Social Media password or your family cant get a job!

viva la france

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Nilbop posted:

This will almost certainly be a moritorium on radical extra-state parties from sponsoring or investing in mosques.

Debateable. As anyone who knows anyone shia or sunni knows the problem of radical mosque funding is generally not one of conservatise practitioners, but one of having no other financial options. You can have a cellar with no theological strings, or a proper mosque with all the strings in the world.

Making organisations non-grata is a bit like going mole-hunting. Given time, they'll just find other umbrellas to funnel the same funds and strings through. You squash those, they'll come up with others.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012



many in the west fearmonger about a "muslim uprising" etc etc. even so much so to put it in Children of Men and other movies. Now with that in mind, We are seeing the seeds of this now. years before the big problems start happening, this type of action only feeds more extremism and cultural revulsion in the islamic community. What if a frenchmen reports your child or you etc? People will become even more enclosed. and seek more extremism potentially or retaliate when extrajudicial killings occur or the other hosed up poo poo that happens.


The french government with this action is sowing the seeds of insurrection from the people who came here seeking freedom. Its loving unfortunate.

Owling Howl
Jul 17, 2019

No one cares.

MiddleOne posted:

Debateable. As anyone who knows anyone shia or sunni knows the problem of radical mosque funding is generally not one of conservatise practitioners, but one of having no other financial options. You can have a cellar with no theological strings, or a proper mosque with all the strings in the world.

Making organisations non-grata is a bit like going mole-hunting. Given time, they'll just find other umbrellas to funnel the same funds and strings through. You squash those, they'll come up with others.

Sure but right wing extremists funding and hijacking domestic organizations is, as a general rule of thumb, bad. It may be impossible to prevent but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make it more difficult.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


What SHOULD the French be doing?

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

CUNT


Abolishing capitalism imo

An insane mind
Aug 11, 2018



Orange Devil posted:

Abolishing capitalism imo

That's really what everyone should be doing though.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Making a system that has opportunities and inclusion for young people, especially all the young men who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by a system that has lied to them and exploited them their entire lives while refusing to acknowledge it, leaving them vulnerable to radicalisation by people who claim to have the answers no one else will give them.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012


Counterpoint, maybe young Muslims will stop radicalising if they get singled out and their families mistreated and arbitrarily excluded more. Huh bet you smart guy hadn't thought of that one.

I mean what is one supposed to do, not repeatedly stoke the fires of religious and ethnic strife?

mortons stork fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Nov 21, 2020

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Making a system that has opportunities and inclusion for young people, especially all the young men who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by a system that has lied to them and exploited them their entire lives while refusing to acknowledge it, leaving them vulnerable to radicalisation by people who claim to have the answers no one else will give them.
Arenít islamist terrorists coming from the upper middle class typically?

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Cingulate posted:

Arenít islamist terrorists coming from the upper middle class typically?

It varies is the answer. Al Queda had a heavy over-representation of engineers from rich families which makes sense given Bin Ladens own background. Like for example the two architects of the 9/11 attacks, who were both schooled in western universities.

But as it for being typical, terror attacks from the last 5 years are all over the map. You have disenfranchised youth, former organized criminals, individuals stuck in deportation limbo, former ISIS-members, people traveling in just to commit attacks, etc.

I mean Anzorov (who stoked these current discussion) was a former russian refugee that had lived in France for 12 years. Not exactly a member of the landed gentry of the gulf so to speak.

SplitSoul
Dec 31, 2000



mortons stork posted:

Counterpoint, maybe young Muslims will stop radicalising if they get singled out and their families mistreated and arbitrarily excluded more. Huh bet you smart guy hadn't thought of that one.

I mean what is one supposed to do, not repeatedly stoke the fires of religious and ethnic strife?

Living in a country that is already forcing children into daycare "to teach them democracy" on threat of revoking child benefits, allows police to impose double penalty zones, and collectively evicts families over criminal behaviour of youths, us Danes are all out of ideas-- no, wait a minute, here comes the nominally leftist PM proposing curfews and confiscation of items deemed too expensive for non-whites, at the discretion of an overwhelmingly white police force that unsuccessfully charges non-whites at a 70% greater rate as it is.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


SplitSoul posted:

Living in a country that is already forcing children into daycare "to teach them democracy"
This is radicalising me.


MiddleOne posted:

It varies is the answer. Al Queda had a heavy over-representation of engineers from rich families which makes sense given Bin Ladens own background. Like for example the two architects of the 9/11 attacks, who were both schooled in western universities.

But as it for being typical, terror attacks from the last 5 years are all over the map. You have disenfranchised youth, former organized criminals, individuals stuck in deportation limbo, former ISIS-members, people traveling in just to commit attacks, etc.

I mean Anzorov (who stoked these current discussion) was a former russian refugee that had lived in France for 12 years. Not exactly a member of the landed gentry of the gulf so to speak.
Right, I never looked up the backgrounds for any of the more recent French attackers. I guess they have a fairly different profile then from the stereotypical 9/11 hijacker.

I think France, and probably the world in general, is in a catch-22 here. You can either do nothing, and have islamists and ethnic white far-right fuel each other. Or you can bow to either one side ... and have exactly the same outcome.
Islam is just kind of a bad religion really.

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MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



The problem with doing nothing is that current wave of terror attacks had their groundwork laid in 20 years cumulative bad political decisions who now have a life of their own, even without Macrons attempts to make things worse.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Cingulate posted:

This is radicalising me.

Right, I never looked up the backgrounds for any of the more recent French attackers. I guess they have a fairly different profile then from the stereotypical 9/11 hijacker.

I think France, and probably the world in general, is in a catch-22 here. You can either do nothing, and have islamists and ethnic white far-right fuel each other. Or you can bow to either one side ... and have exactly the same outcome.
Islam is just kind of a bad religion really.

No. This is the opposite of reality, and deeply racist. The things to cut off radicalisation and integrate young people into society are exactly the same. Make sure young people have opportunities, stability and communities, and start locking up far right white supremacist leaders and denouncing their evil as equal to terrorism of any stripe.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


It looks to me nobody should be under any illusion this poo poo is gonna make islamists less inclined to attack, it looks purely calculated to appease the right. Keep a few votes from going for FN. which, I donít think that math will work out.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


Ghost Leviathan posted:

No. This is the opposite of reality, and deeply racist. The things to cut off radicalisation and integrate young people into society are exactly the same. Make sure young people have opportunities, stability and communities, and start locking up far right white supremacist leaders and denouncing their evil as equal to terrorism of any stripe.
Iíve interacted with two people Iíd classify as islamist in my life, one a white convert and the other a guy raised in Egypt with presumably a fairly normal Egyptian education. (He had fled Egypt cause THEYRE obviously trying to crack down on THEIR islamists, and would get into interesting fights with the women who had fled Egypt cause itís a deeply misogynistic society.)

Both were quiet alienated from our society, but neither seemed to have a particularly socieoeconomic motive. I mean, they became islamists, not socialists, or bankers.

Iím not saying socioeconomics doesnít play a role - if recent French terrorists are all from those poor ghettos they have, thatís quite a tell. But that doesnít immediately suggest a sociopolitical answer of the sort of, raise the minimum wage, teach kids how to code, whatever.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

No. This is the opposite of reality, and deeply racist. The things to cut off radicalisation and integrate young people into society are exactly the same. Make sure young people have opportunities, stability and communities, and start locking up far right white supremacist leaders and denouncing their evil as equal to terrorism of any stripe.

Part of giving young people opportunities is making sure they get a good education, so forcing them into schools at gun point seems to be a good idea. It's also not far from what is already the norm in Germany -the school duty is often enforced by police. If you don't have a good excuse for why your kids are not at school, police will show up to collect them. Sounds probably gruesome to someone from a different country, but it's meant to make sure kids get the education they need to function in society.

We even already have "IDs for kids", as you're expected to get an ID as soon as you hit 16. And if you get caught without one, you'll get fined to up to 5000 Euros, which is probably a lot for a 16 year old or their parents. Moving the age down a bit isn't really a world-ending change.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 19 days!


Libluini posted:

Part of giving young people opportunities is making sure they get a good education, so forcing them into schools at gun point seems to be a good idea. It's also not far from what is already the norm in Germany -the school duty is often enforced by police. If you don't have a good excuse for why your kids are not at school, police will show up to collect them. Sounds probably gruesome to someone from a different country, but it's meant to make sure kids get the education they need to function in society.

We even already have "IDs for kids", as you're expected to get an ID as soon as you hit 16. And if you get caught without one, you'll get fined to up to 5000 Euros, which is probably a lot for a 16 year old or their parents. Moving the age down a bit isn't really a world-ending change.
A ton of things that might otherwise be good ideas - not that I necessarily agree these are good ideas - become terrible ideas when you add, ďto gently caress over Muslims!Ē to them. ďUniversal education, to gently caress over Muslims!Ē Yeah no.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Schools haven't been giving kids 'the education they need to function in society' for decades, if ever.

SplitSoul
Dec 31, 2000



Libluini posted:

It's also not far from what is already the norm in Germany -the school duty is often enforced by police.

Phew, at least German police don't have a racist problem.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Schools haven't been giving kids 'the education they need to function in society' for decades, if ever.

That's a completely separate problem which needs solving.


SplitSoul posted:

Phew, at least German police don't have a racist problem.

Sorry, but you're seriously misinformed. The best you could say about our police is "at least they won't shoot a pregnant woman just for having too dark skin, probably". Which is uh... a very low bar to clear.

Especially the police in Bavaria is known for being awful to everyone they think is not German.

SplitSoul
Dec 31, 2000



Free speech.

https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1329894857289175042

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer


That's something I'd expect to see from the Onion.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012



Another great victory for liberal values. This will certainly not exacerbate existing conflicts and definitely isn't the sort of racist rhetoric you'd expect out the FN to stoke hatred and scapegoat immigrants, no siree.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer

Punishing complaining is so deeply Anti-German I feel creeped out. Is this culture shock? Or is this Gerald Darmanin a demon from hell, send to destroy us all?

Also taken out of context, it makes the French look like total nutcases. "Complain about cartoons, will you? We will destroy you"

This is completely demented.

Kassad
Nov 11, 2005

It's about time.


Libluini posted:

Punishing complaining is so deeply Anti-German I feel creeped out. Is this culture shock?

It sounds more like it'd target parents who try to intimidate a teacher into dropping the caricature, so not exactly a simple complaint. Still an insane overreaction.

Libluini posted:

Or is this Gerald Darmanin a demon from hell, send to destroy us all?

Also taken out of context, it makes the French look like total nutcases. "Complain about cartoons, will you? We will destroy you"

This is completely demented.

You're starting to grasp the extent of the problem, yes.

SplitSoul
Dec 31, 2000



It's typical, though. I remember when the founder of the Danish People's Party, true champions of the OG cartoon crisis, demanded an apology from a British cartoonist who had drawn the PM unfavourably. The free speech poo poo has always been a fig leaf unable to withstand the slightest breeze.

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013


Libluini posted:

We even already have "IDs for kids", as you're expected to get an ID as soon as you hit 16. And if you get caught without one, you'll get fined to up to 5000 Euros, which is probably a lot for a 16 year old or their parents. Moving the age down a bit isn't really a world-ending change.

I'm sorry, but on its face, this seems extremely draconian and silly. How is this different from a poll tax, or something similar? I'm an EU citizen and I have a passport, but I don't carry it around with me, and it seems extremely weird that "getting caught without" it would get me fined thousands of euros.

Am I taking crazy pills?

Mygna
Sep 12, 2011


Rappaport posted:

I'm sorry, but on its face, this seems extremely draconian and silly. How is this different from a poll tax, or something similar? I'm an EU citizen and I have a passport, but I don't carry it around with me, and it seems extremely weird that "getting caught without" it would get me fined thousands of euros.

Am I taking crazy pills?

That's the fine for not owning an ID card or alternatively a passport at all. There's no requirement to carry it around with you.

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Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013


But do I get to ask the nice officer to come with me back to my apartment's door to show him I have a passport? How does that work in practice? It still seems like a very onerous NIMBY legislation thing.

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