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Simplex posted:Clara Barton is such an easy and obvious answer that I feel like I'm missing something that nobody has brought her up.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:47
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whitey delenda est posted:A hundred percent agreed, but there needs to be LGBT representation up in there and we only have so many slots! I want RuPaul on the three dollar note so we can retire that stupid phrase because ain't no one queerer than the Supermodel of the World  
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Apr 18, 2016 04:53
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mdemone posted:See, this is what I always say to people, but lately I've heard some yammering about how her support for eugenics is way overblown, so now I don't really know what to think because there is a confusion of primary source material out there. I get what you're saying but even any ties to the eugenics movement is pretty suspect. This country has a long ugly history of straight up sterilizing women - especially women of color - without their consent. The history is awful enough that it's hard to look at even the possibility of her having "only" a sympathetic view of the eugenics movement as being something we can just say 'well that's just what people thought back then!' and overlook it.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:55
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Money chat has to be the most vapid of all derails.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:59
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Yeah, Picard would never stand for this poo poo.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:00
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Kokoro Wish posted:Yeah, Picard would never stand for this poo poo. Seriously, he's got so many other important things to debate and discuss like
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Apr 18, 2016 05:04
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I feel like there's been WWAAAYYY worse derails than this.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:07
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mdemone posted:See, this is what I always say to people, but lately I've heard some yammering about how her support for eugenics is way overblown, so now I don't really know what to think because there is a confusion of primary source material out there. Sanger's support of eugenics is both overblown and to some degree true. But in any event not all eugenics is "put the Others in death camps." There was also "positive eugenics" of encouraging genetically "fit" people to breed, as well as less extreme "negative eugenics" such as letting people choose not to have kids via birth control. Compulsory sterilization became a big deal to be sure (especially in California, which had 1/3 of the entire nation's compulsory sterilizations), which continued well into the 1960s. Eugenics is certainly against modern ethics. On the other hand, the basic prospect of "encourage two carriers of Tay-Sachs to consider adoption instead of having a kid" isn't quite the level of sex-selective abortions, much less Auschwitz. We tend to paint with a broad brush when it comes to the term, which makes sense given the history of deep deep connection to racism, but lots of people even today are actually totally cool with the basic premise of using science to ensure genetically healthy kids. It's a complex thing where the term is more taboo than the subject itself, really, because of historical circumstance (including, again, deep ties to fundamentally racist follow-through). Academician Nomad fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 05:08
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there wolf posted:People who are most dead and people feigning outrage over a past event that had no effect on their lives beyond being something they can point to as insufficiently warmongering. But you're right that it's just the reality we live in where one of our very few historical female political figures is considered unworthy or recognition because she stuck to her principles. Insert some joke about the Republican party now here. Declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor was warmongering? As for sticking to your guns, Trump does that just fine but his poo poo is retarded so he gets no points for speaking his mind. Same thing going on here. Not declaring war after thousands are killed in an overt attack is retarded. SwingShift posted:I get what you're saying but even any ties to the eugenics movement is pretty suspect. This country has a long ugly history of straight up sterilizing women - especially women of color - without their consent. The history is awful enough that it's hard to look at even the possibility of her having "only" a sympathetic view of the eugenics movement as being something we can just say 'well that's just what people thought back then!' and overlook it. Dig through history and you'll find that tons of people from the past have super bad traits. As long as Andrew Jackson is on there, though... DeusExMachinima fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 05:09
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Daniel Bryan posted:Have some fun with money chat instead. Am I the only one getting sick of all this Jackson bashing? Seriously, the guy did nothing wrong. What were the loving Indians doing with that land, anyway? Oh that's right, NOTHING! "We've gotta scalp and torture men, women and children to keep the white man from stealing the land and resources we're not taking advantage of at all!" Can we PLEASE stop pretending the Indians were these sweet little angels who never did anything wrong? They were loving savages and deserved everything they got. End of story.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:18
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staticman posted:Am I the only one getting sick of all this Jackson bashing? Seriously, the guy did nothing wrong. What were the loving Indians doing with that land, anyway? Oh that's right, NOTHING! "We've gotta scalp and torture men, women and children to keep the white man from stealing the land and resources we're not taking advantage of at all!" You can't be that obvious dude. Go read amergin's posts for a prep course. My unironic wish is to replace Jackson with Sacagawea.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:20
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Simplex posted:Clara Barton is such an easy and obvious answer that I feel like I'm missing something that nobody has brought her up. Congrats on copying Scott Walker's answer. Rubio, Cruz, Paul, Walker, and Christi all gave actual historic American Women answers(Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Clara Barton, Abagail Adams). Trump added Rosa Parks as an after thought to his daughter. Huckabee and Carson said family members. Bush and Kasich gave non-American women while Fiorina said nobody. staticman posted:Am I the only one getting sick of all this Jackson bashing? Seriously, the guy did nothing wrong. What were the loving Indians doing with that land, anyway? Oh that's right, NOTHING! "We've gotta scalp and torture men, women and children to keep the white man from stealing the land and resources we're not taking advantage of at all!" Wait, we don't hate him for causing one of Florida's largest cities to no longer be named Cowford? Gyges fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 05:20
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DeusExMachinima posted:You can't be that obvious dude. Go read amergin's posts for a prep course. Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologism, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) staticman fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 05:22
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A pro-read op-Ed from NC: Awake, good North Carolina, from the reign of the zombie kings Well written and researched.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:26
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staticman posted:Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologist, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. kk
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Apr 18, 2016 05:28
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staticman posted:ANDREW JACKSON This was actually a fun brush-up on my 19th century US history!  - Economic policies caused the Panic of 1837 and 4 years of economic depression - Pro-slavery, actively hostile to the abolitionist movement - Started the spoils system, installed corrupt public officials - Policies contributed to the deaths of thousands of Native American civilians and their forced relocation staticman posted:when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. 
Combed Thunderclap fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 05:31
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staticman posted:Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologism, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. 
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Apr 18, 2016 05:31
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staticman posted:Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologism, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. Ayn Rand, is that you?? Ayn Rand posted:If you are born in a magnificent country which you don’t know what to do with, you believe that it is a property right; it is not. And, since the Indians did not have any property rights—they didn’t have the concept of property; they didn’t even have a settled, society, they were predominantly nomadic tribes; they were a primitive tribal culture, if you want to call it that—if so, they didn’t have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:33
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Combed Thunderclap posted:This was actually a fun brush-up on my 19th century US history! Yes, I know I said Jackson did nothing wrong, but that still doesn't excuse the savagery inflicted upon innocent settlers.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:37
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staticman posted:Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologism, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. Your opinions from the bottom of your heart suck then. Genocide is never, ever in the right regardless of anything ever. So what if they spent all day naked. Not deserving of genocide.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:39
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And now all I can think about was when the founding fathers started bitching about how when folks actually hung out with the Native Americans they had a bad habit of going "man gently caress this poo poo" and trying to join up with the local tribes.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:41
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Rhesus Pieces posted:A pro-read op-Ed from NC: A good article and pro-click
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Apr 18, 2016 05:42
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DemeaninDemon posted:Your opinions from the bottom of your heart suck then. That would be the case if they also weren't directly in the way of and violently against our expansion. If they just accepted the inevitable and joined civilization and took up it's values, we wouldn't have had to do what was necessary.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:44
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staticman posted:That would be the case if they also weren't directly in the way of and violently against our expansion. If they just accepted the inevitable and joined civilization and took up it's values, we wouldn't have had to do what was necessary. Hmm yes, I wonder how that went.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:45
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Hmm yes, I wonder how that went. It was either forced relocation, or Jackson sit on his hands and let endless massacres happen. He chose the lesser of two evils.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:47
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What staticman is saying is that might makes right, which means it's right for the government to seize all of his possessions and land if it's the mightier one. This is obvious a self-evident belief of Sovereign Citizens
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Apr 18, 2016 05:47
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staticman posted:Yes, I know I said settlers did nothing wrong, but that still doesn't excuse the savagery inflicted upon innocent natives. OK, I've had my fun. To the ignore list with thee.  Rhesus Pieces posted:A pro-read op-Ed from NC: God, I forgot NC had the Research Triangle. This article also reminded me of Bruce Bueno de Mesquita's The Dictator's Handbook, which, to summarize, basically reminds us that democracies can be just as bad (and even worse) than dictatorships if the people for whom officials depend on for support are horrible, which is why gerrymandering is so insanely damaging. Nothing new for anyone who pays attention to politics, but god it's depressing to know how easy it is to take a government from star pupil to shitshow overnight. 
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Apr 18, 2016 05:48
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DeusExMachinima posted:Declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor was warmongering? As for sticking to your guns, Trump does that just fine but his poo poo is retarded so he gets no points for speaking his mind. Same thing going on here. Not declaring war after thousands are killed in an overt attack is retarded. Wringing you hands over a pacifist voting against going to war, after she did it once before for the same reasons, is stupid.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:48
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the inca were cool
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Apr 18, 2016 05:48
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staticman posted:That would be the case if they also weren't directly in the way of and violently against our expansion. If they just accepted the inevitable and joined civilization and took up it's values, we wouldn't have had to do what was necessary. Which nations are we talking about here? Like did the Nez Perce form a 300-style wall of angry spear men?
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Apr 18, 2016 05:53
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corn in the bible posted:the inca were cool And a good example of what happens when corporations run amok.  It's just that in their case the corporations were the estates of undead emperors.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:53
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staticman posted:It was either forced relocation, or Jackson sit on his hands and let endless massacres happen. He chose the lesser of two evils. Ayn Rand posted:But now, as to the Indians, I don’t even care to discuss that kind of alleged complaints that they have against this country. I do believe with serious, scientific reasons the worst kind of movie that you have probably seen—worst from the Indian viewpoint—as to what they did to the white man.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:58
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Jackson was good for two things. Ending the presidency being a aristocrat only club. Along with putting in place a precedent for dealing with secessionist traitors.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:04
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staticman posted:That would be the case if they also weren't directly in the way of and violently against our expansion. If they just accepted the inevitable and joined civilization and took up it's values, we wouldn't have had to do what was necessary. ugh why are these assholes attacking us again fat lot of good those treaties did, the savages
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Apr 18, 2016 06:31
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Hey Dad, does Mom know you spent  on a forums account so you can complain about the Cherokee?
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Apr 18, 2016 06:36
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VitalSigns posted:Hey Dad, does Mom know you spent What's bad is this is poo poo I have literally heard from my 83 year old Okie grandmother. It's baffling that someone who is ostensibly younger than 50 shares identical beliefs with a woman born in the 30's in rural goddamn Oklahoma and still refers to Brazil nuts in a particularly offensive way.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:46
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Q: What is the sound of one invisible hand clapping? A: A mandate for Helen Keller on all denominations of US currency. Namaste
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Apr 18, 2016 06:49
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staticman posted:Oh for fucks... Another thing I'm sick of is when I state my views, from the bottom of my heart, everyone immediately assumes I'm trolling. This isn't trolling, they are/were literal loving poo poo. They were dancing naked around a fire while we were building an empire. I'm stating the facts. gently caress this loving Indian apologism, I'm done with it, done. They offered nothing to the world, never have, never will. When was the last time you enjoyed squash? Or how about tepary beans and the potential they have to lead to more drought-tolerant bean crops as climate change leads to an increased frequency of drought? Or how about the Hohokam, a lithic society that created canals that would impress the Romans if they were to have seen them, given the technology the Hohokam had to work with and who kept their system working for 1500 years of stability, over 5 times longer than the United States was a nation. And what about how the Maya created vulcanized rubber a full 2000 years before Europeans did? You like avocados? They domesticated those. Maize of course, and also turkey, also domesticated by native groups, I'm sure you've eaten those. Or maybe you don't care about any of this because you're an ignorant, bigoted racist.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:50
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KiteAuraan posted:When was the last time you enjoyed squash? Or how about tepary beans and the potential they have to lead to more drought-tolerant bean crops as climate change leads to an increased frequency of drought? Or how about the Hohokam, a lithic society that created canals that would impress the Romans if they were to have seen them, given the technology the Hohokam had to work with and who kept their system working for 1500 years of stability, over 5 times longer than the United States was a nation. And what about how the Maya created vulcanized rubber a full 2000 years before Europeans did? You like avocados? They domesticated those. Maize of course, and also turkey, also domesticated by native groups, I'm sure you've eaten those. Or you could read up on what they ACTUALLY did to settlers, instead of praising them as noble savages blindly. Also, it's not racist to recite historical facts, which is what these are, whether you like it or not.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:53
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staticman posted:Or you could read up on what they ACTUALLY did to settlers, instead of praising them as noble savages blindly. Also, it's not racist to recite historical facts, which is what these are, whether you like it or not. Yeah, I've read that. I've also read what settlers and soldiers did, unprovoked, to men like Mangas Coloradas. You're a racist and an ignorant poo poo.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:54
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