Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Owlbear Camus
Jan 3, 2013

Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?


DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

yeah the argument isn’t that Hamas has produced the first non-atrocity-committing army in the history of the species, it’s that they’re desperate, brutalized people living in a concentration camp and sometimes poo poo happens when people like that are given license to strike back. it wouldn’t justify Israel’s war of extermination even if all of the most outrageous Israeli claims about 10/7 were true, which of course they’re not.

this is something I typed up and posted for the people who follow me on the face page a few weeks ago:

There's a tactic you should probably know about called "atrocity propaganda." It's at least as old as the Crusades, and probably as old as warfare.

It's pretty simple. You come up with the most disgusting, lurid thing you can imagine and say the people you want to kill en masse did to your helpless women and children. Popular themes are butchery and torture directed against infants and children and sexual assault of women, the more creatively vile the better.

In the lead up to the 1991 Iraq war, the "Nariyah testimony" claimed before Congress that Iraqi soldiers threw premature babies out of incubators on the ground, laughing about it. It was a complete fabrication meant to shore up support.

This is not to say that atrocities do not happen in armed conflict, of course. They very obviously do.

But I would encourage everyone when presented with propaganda of this sort to ask yourself "Is this credible/plausible? Am I being manipulated? Why is so much lurid detail being related in this story? For what reason is this message being amplified?"

And perhaps most critically "Even if I grant, for the sake of argument, this is a true or at least plausible story-- is the alleged atrocity being used as a justification for an even greater atrocity?"

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

the “hard” evidence is the Israeli guncam footage from October 7th where they’re gunning down groups of people walking along the road and blasting vehicles.

now is it “hard” in the sense that one could prove definitively that the people in the video were Israelis and not Palestinians? only Israeli investigators could claim that, but it’s the investigators who admitted to the gunship mowing people down already.

That's the point, the sort of evidence people would require is basically impossible, because, even at best, it would probably only apply to a subset of the killings. You could logically conclude "this very strongly suggests that the other killings were similar," but most people wouldn't consider that persuasive because the idea of "Islamic terrorists doing murders" just makes more sense to their minds.

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

yeah the argument isn’t that Hamas has produced the first non-atrocity-committing army in the history of the species, it’s that they’re desperate, brutalized people living in a concentration camp and sometimes poo poo happens when people like that are given license to strike back. it wouldn’t justify Israel’s war of extermination even if all of the most outrageous Israeli claims about 10/7 were true, which of course they’re not.

Yeah, but it's still annoying that people even attribute most civilians killings on 10/7 to them. It's just one in a long list of atrocities that should be attributed to the IDF but isn't (and in this case it leads to significant portions of "pro-Palestinian" people simultaneously being "anti-Hamas" - I'd wager that significant portions of people who participated in the protests would still describe themselves this way).

I don't doubt they killed some people, just because fights likely broke out in the process of taking hostages and people had guns. But the vast majority of casualties were likely caused by the IDF.

Ytlaya has issued a correction as of 00:06 on Nov 21, 2023

hubris.height
Jan 6, 2005

Pork Pro

V. Illych L. posted:

yes but they always do that, it's their equivalent of throwing a tantrum

please excuse my son, we told him no more time on the in-tank tablet unless they finish their vegetables

Strep Vote
May 5, 2004

أنا أحب حليب الشوكولاتة

I'm reminded so intensely of the story of the two women fighting over a baby and asking king Solomon to figure out who the mother is. The people who belong to the land grow olive trees, they don't tear them down.

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Ytlaya posted:

That's the point, the sort of evidence people would require is basically impossible, because, even at best, it would probably only apply to a subset of the killings. You could logically conclude "this very strongly suggests that the other killings were similar," but most people wouldn't consider that persuasive because the idea of "Islamic terrorists doing murders" just makes more sense to their minds.

It's not just that it makes sense to their minds, the violence of the deaths from Israeli guns, rockets and bombs, is leading people into concocting the most insane murder rape fantasies imaginable. I can't even describe how they talk without eating a sixer, and it only serves to further isolate them from reality, even from people who otherwise sympathize with them.

Loucks
May 21, 2007

It's incwedibwe easy to suck my own dick.

more than willing to consider that hamas possibly did some crimes just as soon as Zionists stop openly committing atrocity after atrocity and give up or are driven out of their grotesque ethnostate, but I’m skeptical of any claims that disregard IAF’s well-documented love of indiscriminate murder.

The Kingfish
Oct 21, 2015


It is extremely easy to find videos of Hamas fighters committing full blown atrocities on October 7, 2023—and not just because “fights broke out” while they attempted to take hostages. Shooting unarmed civilians as the run or cower, shooting unaware civilians in their homes and throwing grenades in to finish the job. I‘ve been told there is much worse, but have seen enough to know these sorts of acts were certainly committed.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Engorged Pedipalps
Apr 21, 2023
Yeah man I don't think anybody's denying that but thanks for confirming you're one of those dudes who watches wartime snuff films

HallelujahLee
May 3, 2009

Engorged Pedipalps posted:

Yeah man I don't think anybody's denying that but thanks for confirming you're one of those dudes who watches wartime snuff films

Loucks
May 21, 2007

It's incwedibwe easy to suck my own dick.

The Kingfish posted:

It is extremely easy to find videos of Hamas fighters committing full blown atrocities on October 7, 2023—and not just because “fights broke out” while they attempted to take hostages. Shooting unarmed civilians as the run or cower, shooting unaware civilians in their homes and throwing grenades in to finish the job. I‘ve been told there is much worse, but have seen enough to know these sorts of acts were certainly committed.

Cool tell us more about how you love watching gore you fuckin freak

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

It's not just that it makes sense to their minds, the violence of the deaths from Israeli guns, rockets and bombs, is leading people into concocting the most insane murder rape fantasies imaginable. I can't even describe how they talk without eating a sixer, and it only serves to further isolate them from reality, even from people who otherwise sympathize with them.

I'm talking about "normies" more than the sort of sickos who talk and fantasize about this stuff in Twitter mentions. To the "normal" person who doesn't pay much attention to this stuff, the mere act of being like "here is the documentation of why Hamas didn't do a lot/most of the murders" comes off as weird (if not outright morally abhorrent). Hamas is the spooky terrorists, and all the news said they did the murders! Sounds kinda like school shooting truthers to me :colbert:

Asproigerosis
Mar 13, 2013

insufferable
Lmao constantly posting about death to America death to Israel but omg you watched the bad brain videos you loving sociopath

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Engorged Pedipalps
Apr 21, 2023
"now, as you can see" *pointing to a single frozen frame of a horrifying murder* "the head goes back, and to the left, indicating that..." *speaking to a whole rear end empty room*

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012


Lipstick Apathy

Loucks posted:

Cool tell us more about how you love watching gore you fuckin freak
i try to avoid watching that stuff but the fictional reenactments of hamas suicide bombers from 20 years ago is entertainment to a lot of people. i mentioned it to my redneck aunt who likes biker bands and she thought it was darkly hilarious in a shocking way, but that's her sense of humor. don't worry nobody dies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifVybe3-5aE

:happyelf:

BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 00:24 on Nov 21, 2023

The Kingfish
Oct 21, 2015


Engorged Pedipalps posted:

Yeah man I don't think anybody's denying that

like six posts up.

Brogeoisie
Jan 12, 2005

"Look, I'm a private citizen," he said. "One thing that I don't have to do is sit here and open my kimono as it relates to how much money I make or didn't."

The Kingfish posted:

It is extremely easy to find videos of Hamas fighters committing full blown atrocities on October 7, 2023—and not just because “fights broke out” while they attempted to take hostages. Shooting unarmed civilians as the run or cower, shooting unaware civilians in their homes and throwing grenades in to finish the job. I‘ve been told there is much worse, but have seen enough to know these sorts of acts were certainly committed.

Thanks straight up don't believe you. Good attempt at making poo poo up tho

Engorged Pedipalps
Apr 21, 2023

Asproigerosis posted:

Lmao constantly posting about death to America death to Israel but omg you watched the bad brain videos you loving sociopath

Nobody has to watch contextless gore to confirm that some members of Hamas killed some civilians on 10/7

Unless you are a reporter or intelligence analyst there is absolutely no reason to consume this sort of content, period. Nothing in these videos resembles news or worthwhile information to ordinary people. Most ordinary people find death and violence and gore deeply upsetting. If you are consuming this poo poo for entertainment consistently enough to know which videos are which and what happened in them it shows a tremendous weakness in character and yeah it's a good sign you might be a loving sociopath tbh

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004

Asproigerosis posted:

Lmao constantly posting about death to America death to Israel but omg you watched the bad brain videos you loving sociopath

imagine thinking these two things are in anyway comparable

LITERALLY A BIRD
Sep 27, 2008

I knew you were trouble
when you flew in

Strep Vote posted:

I'm reminded so intensely of the story of the two women fighting over a baby and asking king Solomon to figure out who the mother is. The people who belong to the land grow olive trees, they don't tear them down.

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011

When someone inflicts every torture imaginable on a group of people to break and destroy them, then they should expect consequences when said people are not broken and not destroyed.

Clip-On Fedora has issued a correction as of 00:35 on Nov 21, 2023

Engorged Pedipalps
Apr 21, 2023

The Kingfish posted:

like six posts up.

Pointing out that the nation with an on the books policy of killing their own people in situations like this, may have killed a bunch of their own people in a situation like this, is not denying that Hamas killed civilians on 10/7.

I rate this claim five out of five Pinocchios

Sherbert Hoover
Dec 12, 2019

Working hard, thank you!

Loucks posted:

Cool tell us more about how you love watching gore you fuckin freak

:chloe:

VomitOnLino
Jun 13, 2005

Sometimes I get lost.

The Kingfish posted:

It is extremely easy to find videos of Hamas fighters committing full blown atrocities on October 7, 2023—and not just because “fights broke out” while they attempted to take hostages. Shooting unarmed civilians as the run or cower, shooting unaware civilians in their homes and throwing grenades in to finish the job. I‘ve been told there is much worse, but have seen enough to know these sorts of acts were certainly committed.

Whats your take on the slave revolts which ended up killing many innocents as well, and John Brown?

Loucks
May 21, 2007

It's incwedibwe easy to suck my own dick.

Asproigerosis posted:

Lmao constantly posting about death to America death to Israel but omg you watched the bad brain videos you loving sociopath

Did one of the maskless patients you’ve spent years whining about in the pestilence thread finally give you covid-induced brain damage or were you always this stupid?

mags
May 30, 2008

I am a congenital optimist.

The Kingfish posted:

It is extremely easy to find videos of Hamas fighters committing full blown atrocities on October 7, 2023—and not just because “fights broke out” while they attempted to take hostages. Shooting unarmed civilians as the run or cower, shooting unaware civilians in their homes and throwing grenades in to finish the job. I‘ve been told there is much worse, but have seen enough to know these sorts of acts were certainly committed.

:gb2gbs:

fits my needs
Jan 1, 2011

Grimey Drawer

Loucks posted:

Did one of the maskless patients you’ve spent years whining about in the pestilence thread finally give you covid-induced brain damage or were you always this stupid?

the nurses will not date him

HallelujahLee
May 3, 2009

its time to clear the burgerposters

Kitfox88
Aug 20, 2007

Anybody lose their glasses?

VomitOnLino posted:

Whats your take on the slave revolts which ended up killing many innocents as well, and John Brown?

they fuckin owned op

VomitOnLino
Jun 13, 2005

Sometimes I get lost.

Kitfox88 posted:

they fuckin owned op

Indeed, indeed but you ruined my idiot trap

Kitfox88
Aug 20, 2007

Anybody lose their glasses?
it caught an idiot (me) so is it really ruined???

VomitOnLino
Jun 13, 2005

Sometimes I get lost.

fits my needs posted:

the nurses will not date him

Coz all the dates are in hamas tunnels

Sherbert Hoover
Dec 12, 2019

Working hard, thank you!
time to purge this thread of fair weather friends who support the violent struggle against the occupying forces of "Israel" but also think straight up executing civilians is probably bad

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004

I just want Palestine to be free.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

The Kingfish posted:

like six posts up.

If you're referring to mine, I don't doubt that Hamas probably shot people. Lots of justifiably angry and often young people finally found themselves in a position to have some recourse. But there's no loving way it was even a significant percent of the numbers Israel is throwing around. Killing like 500+ (much less 1000+) people with small arms and grenades in such a short time isn't really plausible unless it was planned beforehand, and there's nothing indicating that this was part of their "battle plans" (apparently they weren't even aware that the rave was going to be taking place).

edit: Basically it just bugs me that Israel absolutely killed most of those people, and it will probably never receive mainstream acknowledgement, even among the pro-Palestinian side

The Kingfish
Oct 21, 2015


VomitOnLino posted:

Whats your take on the slave revolts which ended up killing many innocents as well, and John Brown?

the atrocities committed were ultimately justified and very good.

Sherbert Hoover
Dec 12, 2019

Working hard, thank you!

Ytlaya posted:

If you're referring to mine, I don't doubt that Hamas probably shot people. Lots of justifiably angry and often young people finally found themselves in a position to have some recourse. But there's no loving way it was even a significant percent of the numbers Israel is throwing around. Killing like 500+ (much less 1000+) people with small arms and grenades in such a short time isn't really plausible unless it was planned beforehand, and there's nothing indicating that this was part of their "battle plans" (apparently they weren't even aware that the rave was going to be taking place).

Yep

HallelujahLee
May 3, 2009

hamas ftw

VomitOnLino
Jun 13, 2005

Sometimes I get lost.

The Kingfish posted:

the atrocities committed were ultimately justified and very good.

So, ur saying that while it is regrettable that innocents got harmed hamas is justified and very good?

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002

The Kingfish posted:

like six posts up.

Cool cool what else are you bad at reading/understanding

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

F_Shit_Fitzgerald
Feb 2, 2017



I don't give a poo poo what Hamas supposedly did. Israel brought Oct. 7th on themselves by keeping these people in a concentration camp. Hamas are freedom fighters striking back at an occupation force that makes no distinctions between civilians and combatants.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply