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Tnega
Oct 26, 2010

Pillbug

I AM GRANDO posted:

I think most people hate him and his opponent, which is still not very good for him at all. Itís not great when we go a good ten years with the trusty old ďIíll shoot the hostages!Ē strategy from the democrats three times in a row. It worked once, I guess.

Well, if "Vote Blue regardless of what your internal moral compass is screaming" works, why change it.

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Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




Bel Shazar posted:

They're fascists fighting capitalists who have been using fascism as political and social control.

And who lost control of it and have been consumed.

Cease to Hope posted:

i think you might be catastrophizing things but i dunno for sure.

Well as said, it is obvious, it is trivial, itís a conclusion on mainstream television and radio these days. Itís something one can hear very center folks (like Kai Ryssdal) posit. There are literally trials about it in progress.

It is obvious it is trivial. So are you naive?

I mean your ďcool headedĒ takeÖ have you looked at Florida? Teachers get fired if they use preferred gender pronouns. Have you looked at the things they are doing: https://www.flgov.com/2023/05/17/governor-ron-desantis-signs-sweeping-legislation-to-protect-the-innocence-of-floridas-children/

I grew up in Venice. Iíve camped at the property that has became the Hollow. I know the absolutely crazy poo poo Michael Flynn is doing in Sarasota county.

So Iíll ask again:

It is obvious, it is trivial. So are you merely naive?

Mid-Life Crisis posted:

They started late last time because they didnít think the establishment would so overtly fight change. Instead they went on witch hunt after witch hunt. Mueller. Mueller. Mueller.

You can call them fascists, but theyíre essentially fighting against the same.

They were delayed internally by their own appointees. By Priebus, by Mattis, by Tillerson by conservatives who still thought they could use a fascist as a political and social control.

It is obvious, it is trivial. Itís been a general consensus here that Trump and Brannon and Miller were fascists , argued thousands of times here, since even well before his presidency . So are you merely naive?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This Is the Zodiac
Feb 4, 2003

This Is the Zodiac posted:

If you can look at those school shooting photos without saying "death to America" you have a stronger constitution than I do.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
I got dinged for "lack of linguistic precision" and caused a multi-page derail because goons are morons constantly falling for poo poo, so I think I owe the thread the explanation that "death to America" in this context means "a country that allows this to happen and does nothing to stop it is a country that deserves to be violently destroyed," with the implied corollary that the ideal outcome is "no longer being a country that deserves that".

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This Is the Zodiac fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Nov 19, 2023

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Tnega posted:

Well, if "Vote Blue regardless of what your internal moral compass is screaming" works, why change it.

Well, with a 50% success rate since 2016.

James Garfield
May 5, 2012
Am I a manipulative abuser in real life, or do I just roleplay one on the Internet for fun? You decide!
Israel-Palestine is not going to be a major issue in the 2024 election. Foreign policy never is. Biden isn't doing well in the polls because of poll respondents who say Biden is to their left and support Trump.

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA
i agree that foreign policy tends not to matter as much. but if israel continues and worsens uts atrocities and biden doesn't do a strong about-face, it could

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Buglord

Fart Amplifier posted:

He'd also lose support if he didn't express support for Israel

Probably best not to err on the side of genocide then.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Retro42 posted:

There isn't much to be done about the grumpy old Fox watching crowd. They are voting Republican until they die and are going to LOUDLY complain about everything while doing it. Polls and such can say what they want but the reality is that barring a massive demographic shift in the country, each party can pretty much anticipate most of the votes they get.

Most people already know who they are willing to vote for, some just aren't sure if they are willing to go out and actually vote for them. What hurts the Democrats is voter enthusiasm more than anything, because the previously mentioned crazy old Republicans will ALWAYS vote straight ticket while we Democrats argue over if Biden deserves a vote because of Israel, Ukraine, the economy, housing, immigration, etc.
So what you're saying is: We shouldn't fret about Project 25 unless biden fucks up hilariously badly in some way next year, the chuds alone will never get trump across the finish line?

The Top G
Jul 18, 2023

James Garfield posted:

Israel-Palestine is not going to be a major issue in the 2024 election. Foreign policy never is. Biden isn't doing well in the polls because of poll respondents who say Biden is to their left and support Trump.

Incorrect :eng101:

koolkal
Oct 21, 2008

this thread maybe doesnt have room for 2 green xbox one avs
In the past (and present), Biden and other Democrats often scold their younger voters but it doesn't seem like it will help in this situation.

Timmy Age 6
Jul 23, 2011

Lobster says "mrow?"

Ramrod XTreme

This Is the Zodiac posted:

I got dinged for "lack of linguistic precision" and caused a multi-page derail because goons are morons constantly falling for poo poo, so I think I owe the thread the explanation that "death to America" in this context means "a country that allows this to happen and does nothing to stop it is a country that deserves to be violently destroyed," with the implied corollary that the ideal outcome is "no longer being a country that deserves that".
If violent destruction of a country is your goal, seems like you would be pleased by violent destruction occurring within said country. Not entirely sure how you square that.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

koolkal posted:

In the past (and present), Biden and other Democrats often scold their younger voters but it doesn't seem like it will help in this situation.

It helps them rationalize away a loss so that they donít have to revisit any of their policy positions.

Misunderstood
Jan 19, 2023

This Is the Zodiac posted:

I got dinged for "lack of linguistic precision" and caused a multi-page derail because goons are morons constantly falling for poo poo, so I think I owe the thread the explanation that "death to America" in this context means "a country that allows this to happen and does nothing to stop it is a country that deserves to be violently destroyed," with the implied corollary that the ideal outcome is "no longer being a country that deserves that".
As the person who first objected I absolutely 100% know that; I even knew the "death to traffic lights" thing. My problem with it was not reliant on the idea of it being a literal call to action, and I kind of resent the implication I would be so dumb as to be unfamiliar with the connotations of a term that is common enough that we have a gosh darn smiley for it on this website.

I don't really agree with the probe (nor do I think the "derail" has been particularly ruinous, among those who have participated in good faith) but I still think it was a lovely thing to say, and just a really weird choice of words. It's's a pretty much foreign policy-specific term, and one that is applied a huge majority of the time in the context of stopping America's foreign aggression, not America failing its own citizens.

I find it hard to believe that the "regular" type of person who says "death to America" - i.e., not internet edgelords, but your average politically active Palestinian or Iranian - has a deep concern about American gun laws, or that American gun laws are basically ever the subject of concern when the phrase is invoked, when they're much more concerned about America uses guns in international "law." It felt like a reach, and it didn't feel like a situation that needed to reach one that, I'm pretty sure, the majority of victims' parents would find absolutely shocking if you said it to them.

For the record I would have been absolutely fine with "God drat America." It more properly captures the spiritual deficit that is being critiqued, rather than meeting violence with a violent metaphor. (And if you truly believe in God it's actually an even more extreme thing to say!)

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Nov 19, 2023

Nervous
Jan 25, 2005

Why, hello, my little slice of pecan pie.

Sir, you are technically correct. The best kind of correct. That being said, a poll two years after 9/11 with Americans actively being hit by IEDs and RPGs in Iraq and Afghanistan would have foreign policy much more on people's minds than in a typical election cycle.

Killer robot
Sep 6, 2010

I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!
Pillbug

It's absolutely fair to say that if the US does a ground invasion of either Israel or Palestine it will be a major election issue I guess. It might even be in the top five like it was back then!

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006

There's no way that people will stick by what they said over a year before the election occurred. But this got me curious on what the exit polls found:


So, kind of important but a lot less than what the polling found in 2003.

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good

I AM GRANDO posted:

It helps them rationalize away a loss so that they donít have to revisit any of their policy positions.

what group on any end of the political spectrum has revisited their policy positions after a loss? trump republicans insist they actually won by millions of votes, sanders democrats insist also ran candidates clearing the field is an underhanded move that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, and centrist democrats insist ralph nader is personally responsible for all the evils of the last quarter century. expecting anyone to take a loss and think to themselves "maybe it's because i suck poo poo" is going to leave you perpetually disappointed

Owling Howl
Jul 17, 2019

This Is the Zodiac posted:

I got dinged for "lack of linguistic precision" and caused a multi-page derail because goons are morons constantly falling for poo poo, so I think I owe the thread the explanation that "death to America" in this context means "a country that allows this to happen and does nothing to stop it is a country that deserves to be violently destroyed," with the implied corollary that the ideal outcome is "no longer being a country that deserves that".

Fair enough but that appear to include all nations and of course other and worse wars are ongoing and most nations are not doing anything about those either so you might as well broaden your scope to humanity generally.

haveblue
Aug 15, 2005



Toilet Rascal
Personally I donít believe in half measures when it comes to eliminating even the possibility of immoral acts, which is why we should extinguish all life in the universe

brugroffil
Nov 30, 2015


GhostofJohnMuir posted:

what group on any end of the political spectrum has revisited their policy positions after a loss? trump republicans insist they actually won by millions of votes, sanders democrats insist also ran candidates clearing the field is an underhanded move that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, and centrist democrats insist ralph nader is personally responsible for all the evils of the last quarter century. expecting anyone to take a loss and think to themselves "maybe it's because i suck poo poo" is going to leave you perpetually disappointed

Democrats shifting right in response to Reagan?

Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005

I can't think of a better gift to give Israel than turning its closest ally into a fascist dictatorship that will unflinchingly support them regardless of public opinion on the matter for the rest of our natural lives.

Misunderstood
Jan 19, 2023

Fister Roboto posted:

Probably best not to err on the side of genocide then.
I agree with this take. It sucks for Biden and Democrats that he has no possible response to a situation he did not create that will not hurt his popularity. But as long as he's going to be losing popularity, it might as well be in the process of preventing a genocide and changing the national tenor on an issue on which we've been on the wrong side of history. It's possible that the political consequences of handling this in a more just way would have been more dire than I'm imagining...

And although he's acted frustratingly slowly I think we should remember that when people look up "How Joe Biden responded to the Gaza war of 2023" in history books there is going to be a lot of stuff in there that hasn't happened yet.

Bodyholes posted:

I can't think of a better gift to give Israel than turning its closest ally into a fascist dictatorship that will unflinchingly support them regardless of public opinion on the matter for the rest of our natural lives.
Yeah, I think people reject this argument out of an emotional impulse, but... it's still true. Like, "they didn't earn my vote!" Yeah, so? It's not about who "earned" it, it's about how using it helps the most people. If I give a guy with a cardboard sign on the offramp a :10bux: he didn't "earn" it but it's still a good thing I gave it to him.

That's why I'm fine voting for Joe Biden whatever his personal or political shortcomings - I'm not voting for Joe Biden, I'm gesturing over at "The 2025 Project" and voting for "not that poo poo." I don't for a second understand people who form parasocial fandom relationships with politicians like Trump or Harris (or even good politicians). To me, and I think to most people here, it's the results that matter, and I think it's pretty hard to argue that things would be better right now if Trump had won the 2020 election (although anybody who would like to argue the case may certainly do so.)

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 19, 2023

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

I'M SCARED OF SKELETONS!!!

James Garfield posted:

Israel-Palestine is not going to be a major issue in the 2024 election. Foreign policy never is. Biden isn't doing well in the polls because of poll respondents who say Biden is to their left and support Trump.

We don't even have to speculate about that, because the poll explicitly asked people what their deciding issue in the 2024 election would be.



5% is pretty impressive for foreign policy that doesn't directly involve the US, but it looks like most voters think something else is more important.

Incidentally, I think this style of question (asking people about their single most important issue) is far more useful than asking people what they think of each issue individually. After all, the decisive factor in electoral politics isn't whether people think an issue is important: it's whether they're willing to let a politician's stance on that one issue decide their vote, regardless of that politician's stance on other issues.

Misunderstood
Jan 19, 2023

Main Paineframe posted:

Incidentally, I think this style of question (asking people about their single most important issue) is far more useful than asking people what they think of each issue individually. After all, the decisive factor in electoral politics isn't whether people think an issue is important: it's whether they're willing to let a politician's stance on that one issue decide their vote, regardless of that politician's stance on other issues.
Yeah, and it's pretty obvious when you consider the fairly wide array and unpredictable distribution of public opinion in the US. It's extremely, almost cosmically unlikely that anybody would ever agree with everything an administration did, and if they did it would probably because they weren't evaluating those actions critically.

One would assume that on a personal level, Biden, Obama and other presidents don't agree with all of the policies they support, and were often acting out of political expediency, so even they don't completely agree with the people they're voting for!

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Misunderstood posted:

That's why I'm fine voting for Joe Biden whatever his personal or political shortcomings - I'm not voting for Joe Biden, I'm gesturing over at "The 2025 Project" and voting for "not that poo poo." I don't for a second understand people who form parasocial fandom relationships with politicians like Trump or Harris (or even good politicians). To me, and I think to most people here, it's the results that matter, and I think it's pretty hard to argue that things would be better right now if Trump had won the 2020 election (although anybody who would like to argue the case may certainly do so.)
aint putting my support behind someone who's response to an ongoing genocidal campaign is to mostly side with the genociders. at some point there has to be a line drawn

also i won't support someone who i find completely morally corrupt and seeing as i believe biden is a credibly accused rapist it was a no go from the beginning. but that's a separate can of worms

Misunderstood
Jan 19, 2023

World Famous W posted:

aint putting my support behind someone who's response to an ongoing genocidal campaign is to mostly side with the genociders. at some point there has to be a line drawn

Sure, of course. Itís just that, for many/most, the line is ďthe other guy.Ē Itís unsatisfying, I suppose, but itís an intractable reality and Iím not going to let angst over it eliminate my small amount of influence.

If I really believed that a victory for Democrats was doing some harm that would be prevented by their loss I would weigh my options. But there is absolutely no evidence of that or even anything remotely close.

B B
Dec 1, 2005

Protestors have disrupted the California Democratic Convention to call for a ceasefire:

https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1726022922601423349

https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1726016564804173859

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

I AM GRANDO posted:

I think most people hate him and his opponent, which is still not very good for him at all. Itís not great when we go a good ten years with the trusty old ďIíll shoot the hostages!Ē strategy from the democrats three times in a row. It worked once, I guess.

While "I'll shoot the hostages!" has been the core argument made for a while by the DNC towards everyone to the left of them, I would argue that 2020 was the first time it was their general platform. 2004 was very close to it, and they worked hard to make it a key component of 2016. However 2020 was the first year where both the primaries and general were just about finding the best "I'm not that guy" sign to run.

Skex
Feb 22, 2012

World Famous W posted:

aint putting my support behind someone who's response to an ongoing genocidal campaign is to mostly side with the genociders. at some point there has to be a line drawn

also i won't support someone who i find completely morally corrupt and seeing as i believe biden is a credibly accused rapist it was a no go from the beginning. but that's a separate can of worms

Then you are siding with the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem and supports the a no holds barred genocide with zero calls for restraint and cheers for the settler terrorists.

Sitting on the sidelines in 2024 will not improve the lot of the Palestinians but it will have severe negative consequences for other oppressed groups world wide.

Ogmius815
Aug 25, 2005
centrism is a hell of a drug

Discendo Vox posted:

The gun movement is actually the weakest it's been in decades; NRA's in a slow process of collapse and public opinion has turned pretty heavily on the issue. If the House weren't completely busted right now, it'd be a pretty effective wedge issue going into 2024. The illusion of futility is part of the rhetorical playbook that the group uses to push against advocacy on the topic.

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times. The naive ahistoricism of the position is the point- it's an argument designed to sabotage other discussion. By insisting that we re-entertain and re-explain the most basic principles of ethics and government, the user can repeatedly change the scope and specific subject and continue to assert control of the conversation, demanding a shifting series of explanations and caveats.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This is exactly right and the mods are huge loving cowards.

Thereís no point in posting seriously in D&D anymore, itís a silly place.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA
strange, last i checked he wasnt getting my vote or support either

Staluigi
Jun 22, 2021

thermodynamics cheated
Don't get why it's got to be put as "vote blue no matter who" like it's some team pride poo poo, instead of just being about how this world's so hosed up that there's an obligation to work with whatever measures keep fascists from controlling and radically transforming the most powerful nation on earth to comic book fascism

So i could go for vote blue because jesus loving hell

Wayne Knight
May 11, 2006

Some people are just too morally pure to prevent the guy whoís going to make being queer carry the death penalty from being president.

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA
some people have a limit to how much they'll tolerate

im not morally pure. i just won't back someone who has passed an unacceptable threshold

World Famous W fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 19, 2023

Skex
Feb 22, 2012

Staluigi posted:

Don't get why it's got to be put as "vote blue no matter who" like it's some team pride poo poo, instead of just being about how this world's so hosed up that there's an obligation to work with whatever measures keep fascists from controlling and radically transforming the most powerful nation on earth to comic book fascism

So i could go for vote blue because jesus loving hell

The insane thing is that we're literally living the consequences of the right spending half a century voting Red no matter who which resulted in the overturn of Roe and undermining of the VRA and stripping the government of the power to regulate firearms and corporate malfeasance over the objection of the majority of the public yet we have posters insisting that electoralism doesn't work supported by mods who still allow this completely falsified rhetoric to derail thread after thread.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Skex posted:

The insane thing is that we're literally living the consequences of the right spending half a century voting Red no matter who which resulted in the overturn of Roe and undermining of the VRA and stripping the government of the power to regulate firearms and corporate malfeasance over the objection of the majority of the public yet we have posters insisting that electoralism doesn't work supported by mods who still allow this completely falsified rhetoric to derail thread after thread.

Here's the difference though:
The Republicans are running people that their base wants to vote for. They aren't putting up a guy who is (by their standards/desires) utter dogshit and telling the base to suck it up and deal with it because at least it isn't the Democrat.

brugroffil
Nov 30, 2015


RIP Rosalynn Carter

Morrow
Oct 31, 2010

the_steve posted:

Here's the difference though:
The Republicans are running people that their base wants to vote for. They aren't putting up a guy who is (by their standards/desires) utter dogshit and telling the base to suck it up and deal with it because at least it isn't the Democrat.

Have you talked to a Republican? They're the party constantly claiming everyone is a RINO.

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

Soiled Meat

brugroffil posted:

RIP Rosalynn Carter

I learned this watching a football game.

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Civilized Fishbot
Apr 3, 2011

man buys avatar
to save dead web forum
what a dumb moron

I think there are basically four approaches to voting on here:

1. Simple: Voting is a low-stakes tactical action that makes one electoral outcome more likely than another, it is easy to calculate that the lesser-evil-wins outcome is the most desirable out of all actually possible outcomes, therefore vote for the lesser evil.

2. Game Theorist: Voting is a low-stakes tactical action that makes one electoral outcome more likely than another, the best way to vote is basically a game theory calculation, therefore everyone should vow not to vote for the lesser evil unless he at least does [x] because then he will be likely to do [x]

3. Moralist: Voting is not just a tactical action, it is an endorsement of whomever gets your vote, you are taking moral responsibility for what the candidate will do, so you obviously should never vote for a rapist or enabler of genocide, because these are evil things to endorse with your vote.

4. C-SPAMist: Voting doesn't matter, anyone who takes voting seriously is a dork, especially the ones who vote for a candidate they don't even like.

I think 4 is true but it's okay to be a dork, 2 is true but requires a lot of social organizing, 1 is true when you're not able to accomplish 2, and 3 is basically a American-civic-religious version of 2 which makes it worse because religion doesn't belong in politics.

brugroffil posted:

RIP Rosalynn Carter

Learned about this from this post. That's a shame, she lived an exciting and impactful life, may her memory be a blessing.

Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Nov 19, 2023

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