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Marquis de Pyro
Sep 25, 2006

Evil Prevails
I don't know about supporting being harder to win with, but what I do know is that I'd probably have a lot better mmr if I played the heroes I have 60% win rate with every game as opposed to trying to play Rubick



:gonk: Some supports are just a lot harder to gently caress up than others, it's pretty hard for your teammates to fail to take advantage of having more mana or for you to miss a frostbite.

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computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
Free to Play is available for preloading by the way, it debuts on the 19th.

Skyl3lazer
Aug 27, 2007

[Dooting Stealthily]



Marquis de Pyro posted:

I don't know about supporting being harder to win with, but what I do know is that I'd probably have a lot better mmr if I played the heroes I have 60% win rate with every game as opposed to trying to play Rubick



:gonk: Some supports are just a lot harder to gently caress up than others, it's pretty hard for your teammates to fail to take advantage of having more mana or for you to miss a frostbite.

How do you gently caress up with Rubik? I'm at 4100 and Rubik is my most played hero with a 60% winrate, that hero is super good and you can totally carry poo poo players with him.

KnoxZone
Jan 27, 2007

If I die before I Wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
Supporting is the easiest way to boost your MMR. Just play Treant Protector every game. Pubs are so awful at dealing with Living Armor.

jBrereton
May 30, 2013
Grimey Drawer

Skyl3lazer posted:

How do you gently caress up with Rubik?
Not do well enough in the laning phase that you just get bursted down very, very quickly in every fight after you get maybe one steal off tops.

Meat Recital
Mar 26, 2009

by zen death robot

hi liter posted:

Do goon games still happen in lljk? Or have people moved on to something new?

Try ddrgd.

Silentman0
Jul 11, 2005

I have a new neighbor. Heard he comes from far away


There are also new lines for picking Elder Titan, Oracle, Earth Spirit, Necorphos, Abyssal Underlord, and Windranger.

Darox
Nov 10, 2012


The worst thing about supporting is when you get the absolute money lane position, where they send some lovely melee hero to solo offlane and you just park your rear end down in front of the creeps, but then your carry doesn't understand what denies or lane equilibrium are and the offlaner starts getting safe xp under the tower. We could have kept that Timbersaw at level 1 forever if you had just autoattacked our creeps every so often dude, we could have dominated this game.

When you are carrying this doesn't ever happen because most supports are dumb and don't realize they can just ruin most offlaners day by just abusing their range.

Trademarked
Aug 26, 2006

Well, fancy that.

Darox posted:

The worst thing about supporting is when you get the absolute money lane position, where they send some lovely melee hero to solo offlane and you just park your rear end down in front of the creeps, but then your carry doesn't understand what denies or lane equilibrium are and the offlaner starts getting safe xp under the tower. We could have kept that Timbersaw at level 1 forever if you had just autoattacked our creeps every so often dude, we could have dominated this game.

When you are carrying this doesn't ever happen because most supports are dumb and don't realize they can just ruin most offlaners day by just abusing their range.

On a related note, as a support when I pull you aren't supposed to stop farming and come whack the small camp with me while the entire enemy creep wave under our tower goes to waste.

Chocolatebuddha
Oct 15, 2007

Sweet Deity!

Phantasmal posted:

If this were true, we would expect high impact mids to have pretty good win rates in pubs. And yet what do we find?

Shadow Fiend -- 48.55%
Pudge -- 48.02%
Dragon Knight -- 47.79%
Invoker -- 47.02%
Templar Assassin -- 45.13%
Magnus -- 44.99%
Storm Spirit -- 44.97%
Outworld Devourer -- 44.60%
Puck -- 44.45%
Queen of Pain -- 42.91%
Tinker -- 42.89%

(The "common" mids that actually have strong win rates are Zeus, Death Prophet, Necrolyte, and :siren: Bloodseeker :siren:, but they somehow never get mentioned in these high impact mid discussions)

If you're a 6k player on a 3k account, then yes, Storm Spirit mid is likely a pretty efficient way to gain ranking because he both has pretty good item scaling and early game impact and comes in a relatively safe laning package in an environment where you massively outskill the other mid and will never actually see a mid gank. If you're a player on a 3k account who thinks they're a 6k player with no actual proof, then you're not going to have those returns. You'll also probably end up arguing with the insta-lock Invoker who thinks they're the 6k player that deserves mid, at which point you've practically lost the game before it's even begun.

So if you're a mediocre player at a mediocre rating playing against other mediocre players, and for some reason you want to game your MMR so you can pretend you're less mediocre than all those other people dragging you down, you're much better off picking flexible heroes that are strong in the current patch. If you think you might need to mid you can take a hero like Viper, Death Prophet, Warlock, or Shadow Shaman so that when 5th pick slams down Pudge 5 seconds before creeps spawn you're perfectly fine in a sidelane. If you're seeing a lot of lane dependent carries on your team you can take Lich to ensure you win one lane, or Abaddon if you want to support with a platform to have some (limited) carry potential, or Centaur if you think you can bully some fragile ranged heroes in trades, or a Static Link "support" Razor to make some melee heroes miserable while then being able to transition to a tower demolishing semi-carry if your lane partner's last hitting is completely incompetent. Or you can just Lycan and do whatever because it's Lycan.

And hey, if you want to pick up Queen of Pain or Puck or Tinker or Lone Druid in pub play just because you want to expand your hero pool and mechanics then absolutely go for it. Just don't pretend they're the fast train to 6k because they empirically are not.

That data doesn't apply. High impact mids are harder to play so have a higher failure rate. Remember I am not arguing that high impact mids have an MMR hell. People who pick Storm Spirit and play him to the best of their ability and are at a certain MMR, are at their actual MMR.

So that data is valid, but just for a different argument.

I think some of you are reading into this a bit much about my reason for posting. I don't only play supports, I don't think I am in MMR hell. I just think talking about actual game statistics is more interesting then inserting the word "butt" into hero names.

Philosopher King
Oct 25, 2006
Hey does anyone know what Navi and the Alliance blew their prize money on? Does anyone still have money left from TI3?

Azzents
Oct 19, 2010

"Quoting, like smoking, is a dirty habit to which I am devoted."
After seeing the pudge set in game it doesn't look that cool. There's way too much black that looks like missing textures and the rot is way too obscuring.

YouTuber
Jul 31, 2004

by FactsAreUseless

sesh posted:

I spent a lot of time asking around and looking for 5k+ mmr mainly-support players and all I came up with were:

1) earth spirits
2) zenigata http://dotabuff.com/players/86740536 (aka this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKIB_d2h0ZY )
3) this peruvian dude 'joel' http://dotabuff.com/players/118948478
4) ppd is kind of an honorable mention because he mostly randoms and keeps hard supports

But if anyone else has found other high mmr supports I'd like to know so I can watch their replays.

There is that one Wisp player that only plays Wisp. But the thing is, he got to 5k range MMR by duoing with a Leshrac. Wisp would teleport a creep into the base then every cooldown he'd teleport the Leshrac with edict active into the enemy base.

They've patched that creep in base taking down the backdoor protection so he just plays Wisp normally now in the 5k tier.

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006

Fun Shoe
Do people have like scripts now to auto select captain in CM? I haven't played in a while and every game today I have played it is just sort of instantly selected on both teams.

Also I have lost like 6 games in a row so maybe not playing was a good idea!

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

I suspect most just get used to where the captain button is and start frantically clicking once everyone has loaded.

Mayheim
Jun 15, 2006
They are using an AHK script from reddit.

Buckwheat Sings
Feb 9, 2005
Playing certain heroes in a lower skill pool can be amazing. Pudge is a good go too but since he's one, if not the most, picked hero I like Ember spirit since a lot of people really don't expect his surprise explosive damage capabilities.

I stopped building his AOE attack skill and just went all in his shackles and shield and holy poo poo balls. If he's mid he can practically take out a aggressive trilane singlehandedly if they're caught unaware just by dumping 3x his ult into them with a lvl 3 shackle/lvl 4 shield. The damage is just unreal at that level.

Skyl3lazer
Aug 27, 2007

[Dooting Stealthily]



Arguably among the most formidable Dota 2 players to ever come out of the Western Hemisphere, Clinton “Fear” Loomis, has never had an easy path in front of him. Ever the underdog, he’s used a balance of raw skill and hard-earned experience to overcome the isolation that US players often face when they compete at the highest level. Born 1988, his work ethic and dedication have taken him from Medford, Oregon to Europe, to China, and finally to the Dota 2 International, the tournament with the largest prize pool in the history of video games.

Phantasmal
Jun 6, 2001

Chocolatebuddha posted:

That data doesn't apply. High impact mids are harder to play so have a higher failure rate. Remember I am not arguing that high impact mids have an MMR hell. People who pick Storm Spirit and play him to the best of their ability and are at a certain MMR, are at their actual MMR.

So that data is valid, but just for a different argument.

No, it's very much valid for this argument because you yourself said

quote:

I am just saying that I could see how you could get stuck in this MMR as a support and not get stuck in it as a high impact mid.

If "high impact mids" are significantly harder to play on average than virtually every other category of hero, I'm certain that anyone capable of blowing through a particular matchmaking range as Storm Spirit can do the same from the sidelanes as a hero that we generally categorize as a support.

And from a different angle, it's very much possible that there's a Storm Spirit savant out there that could reach say 5k playing nothing but Storm Spirit but would be incapable of getting past 4k playing nothing but Visage. This would not prove that Storm Spirit is more impactful than Visage; it would only prove that this player is significantly better at Storm Spirit than he is Visage.

People think supports are dependent and low impact because there's this culture of passive supporting with no lane harassment, no pulling, no jungling, no ganking, and no teleports. Somewhere in the Juice thread someone says that they don't believe someone could do the same challenge as a support while "playing as a support," which they defined as no farming and no carry items like Aghs or Orchid. Well no poo poo if you mindlessly handicap yourself you're going to struggle. But for some reason there's this attitude that playing the support completely absolves you of having to pay attention to empty lanes or attempting to last hit, and then they complain that supporting is too low impact.

Meanwhile, people massively overestimate heroes like Storm Spirit, Templar Assassin, and Anti-mage because the games where they get out of control are pretty memorable and selectively forget the games where they don't come online in time, or struggle in lane, or just fail because the player doesn't understand the intricacies of playing the hero. Statistics tell us that these heroes are significantly less reliable than a huge portion of supports on average. Sure, it's absolutely possible to beat that average, but it's dumb to think that you're automatically above that average and therefore entitled to the mid position where you'll automatically reach your true MMR. The entire thing is just a collection of cognitive biases with no grounding in actual reality.

Silentman0
Jul 11, 2005

I have a new neighbor. Heard he comes from far away
Mattpost

Orange DeviI
Nov 9, 2011

by Hand Knit

Phantasmal posted:

People think supports are dependent and low impact because there's this culture of passive supporting with no lane harassment, no pulling, no jungling, no ganking, and no teleports.

Said this for prolly 4 threads but people keep reiterating the same dumb meme of supports just being laning xp leeches

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

killstealing posted:

Said this for prolly 4 threads but people keep reiterating the same dumb meme of supports just being laning xp leeches

It is the nature of the beast, that people who don't know how to play supports know nothing about what the role is supposed to do.

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga

Chocolatebuddha posted:

I still automatically think "there's no soul stealer in this game" when people say "ss"

Euros created the dumbest shorthand (we have them to thank for the retarded "ulti" that became the norm).

Azzents posted:

After seeing the pudge set in game it doesn't look that cool. There's way too much black that looks like missing textures and the rot is way too obscuring.

? It always looked horrible. Not as bad as Dendi set tho.

Lets! Get! Weird! fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Mar 15, 2014

Meat Recital
Mar 26, 2009

by zen death robot
The black Rot effect looks particularly bad.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Lets! Get! Weird! posted:

Euros created the dumbest shorthand (we have them to thank for the retarded "ulti" that became the norm).
Retarded? Ulti makes perfect sense. Ultimate. Ulti.

Lets! Get! Weird!
Aug 18, 2012

Black King Bazinga
You don't say ul tee mate (ult is the one that makes sense)

Endorph posted:

You do, depending on your dialect.

Like I said...Euros.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

You do, depending on your dialect.

Orange DeviI
Nov 9, 2011

by Hand Knit
Stfu shawn, euros have made you and euros can unmake you

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
I use Ulti as a verb and Ult as a noun. E.g. "Phoenix ult is baller." "I'm going to fly in and ulti, can you blink-ult Tide?"

I'm a freak. :negative:

420 Gank Mid
Dec 26, 2008

WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Lets! Get! Weird! posted:

I don't say ul tee mate (ult is the one that makes sense to me)

Marquis de Pyro
Sep 25, 2006

Evil Prevails

Skyl3lazer posted:

How do you gently caress up with Rubik? I'm at 4100 and Rubik is my most played hero with a 60% winrate, that hero is super good and you can totally carry poo poo players with him.

Lift is useless if you don't have team coordination, I rarely talk to my teammates (my problem) and they rarely take advantage of it without me saying HEY I'M LIFTING THIS GUY YO.

His steals also tend to require teamwork, at least the new alt button lets me say 'HEY THIS AMAZING ABILITY IS AVAILABLE, LET'S KILL THEM ALL' easily.

Overall in pubs I assume for that and other reasons CM is at 53% and Rubick 44.5% win rate this patch

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

KnoxZone posted:

Supporting is the easiest way to boost your MMR. Just play Treant Protector every game. Pubs are so awful at dealing with Living Armor.

This is completely wrong. Supporting wins games, but it is the absolute worst way to boost your MMR if you are solo queuing because your individual impact will be low if the rest of the team won't step up.

The best way to boost your MMR is pick a mid, play selfishly, and snowball out of control.

The best way to get better quality games if you do want to play support is to stick to captain's mode, and try playing different regions, especially if you normally queue USe or w.

BabyRyoga fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 15, 2014

Darox
Nov 10, 2012


Being active and aggressive when you are more skilled than the other 9 players wins games. If your idea of support is playing passively and hoping your carry can farm better than theirs you are going to waste your advantage. You can definitely pubstomp lower MMR matches by playing a support hero and doing support things.

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

Darox posted:

Being active and aggressive when you are more skilled than the other 9 players wins games. If your idea of support is playing passively and hoping your carry can farm better than theirs you are going to waste your advantage. You can definitely pubstomp lower MMR matches by playing a support hero and doing support things.

If you are going to be outplaying people by that large of a margin, that sentiment would apply to any hero, so why specifically play support where you will have a lower maximum output possible when you could be snowballing on a hero with more potential?

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

BabyRyoga posted:

If you are going to be outplaying people by that large of a margin, that sentiment would apply to any hero, so why specifically play support where you will have a lower maximum output possible when you could be snowballing on a hero with more potential?

Because supports are the best for being aggressive in the early game and that momentum can carry your team to victory?

I don't think I outplay people by a large margin when I smoke up and gank, that's just the bare basics of what any good support (with good CC, at least) should be doing.

e: I mean if I truly have bad players on my team because my MMR should actually be 6k or w/e, then I can help out those bads by getting them a kill advantage early on and that can give them the push they need.

Srice fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 15, 2014

El Pollo Blanco
Jun 12, 2013

by sebmojo
Does Omnislash have a ministun attached? I just tried to TP away from Juggs and Viper and at about 0.2 seconds before the TP finished I got Omnislashed and the teleport cancelled. I didn't think any of Viper's skills had ministuns, but I'm probably wrong.

El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Mar 15, 2014

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

El Pollo Blanco posted:

Does Omnislash have a ministun attached? I just tried to TP away from Juggs and Viper and at about 0.2 seconds before the TP finished he I got Omnislashed and the teleport cancelled. I didn't think any of Viper's skills had ministuns, but I'm probably wrong.

IIRC the first hit has a ministun.

Crummelhorn
Nov 3, 2010
Yup. Just like Chain Frost.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

El Pollo Blanco posted:

Does Omnislash have a ministun attached? I just tried to TP away from Juggs and Viper and at about 0.2 seconds before the TP finished he I got Omnislashed and the teleport cancelled. I didn't think any of Viper's skills had ministuns, but I'm probably wrong.
How fat was Jugg? Fat enough to have a bash item and a lot of attack speed? If so, Juggs can attack normally during the omnislash if he has enough attack speed. If he had a bash item too, he got lucky and bashed you.

EDIT: Or that. Huh, the DoTA wiki doesn't mention the ministun.

EDIT2: NVM, it does, I'm just blind.

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Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/562680350

How did we even lose this game? Their team was completely terrible, they had terrible items builds, Huskar kept feeding us in the beginning, and we somehow still lost this. Bane and Lion both bought Divine Rapiers for some reason, and we managed to snatch one of them off Bane, but Lion took it back later. They didn't even help them a lot since it was their spells we really had to watch out for, not their auto attacks. I don't even know how we even lost such a stupid game. I thought we had this, but ugh.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Mar 15, 2014

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