|
First poster to tell an interesting fact about the Phoenicians gets to tell me what to vote.
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 11:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:15 |
|
|
By popular demand posted:First poster to tell an interesting fact about the Phoenicians gets to tell me what to vote. why did they branch out all over the mediterranean but never expand their holdings in the levant? because they were too tyred.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 12:01
|
|
|
By popular demand posted:First poster to tell an interesting fact about the Phoenicians gets to tell me what to vote. Carthage was actually less of an empire and more of an alliance of colonies. These colonies would actually be built just offshore, on tiny inlets and islands, before expanding to the "mainland" of an island and there were hundreds of them. Vote C.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 12:35
|
|
|
Gadir that we beat up really early in this campaign was actually a Phoenician colony. They're a pretty neat campaign if you want to start as a single tile city state and turn into purple Carthage.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 12:59
|
|
|
By popular demand posted:First poster to tell an interesting fact about the Phoenicians gets to tell me what to vote. We're not actually sure what the Phoenicians called themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 13:54
|
|
|
A sounds like the most !fun! option. Do that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 14:45
|
|
|
A, because colonial empire a thousand years early? What could ever go wrong
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 15:12
|
|
|
A let's name them something like "new city", that's never been done before
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 15:18
|
|
|
By popular demand posted:First poster to tell an interesting fact about the Phoenicians gets to tell me what to vote. There is evidence the Carthaginians actually did practice child sacrifice, and if I remember a class right, the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alphabet after they lost literacy for a few centuries
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 16:00
|
|
|
Buschmaki posted:There is evidence the Carthaginians actually did practice child sacrifice, and if I remember a class right, the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alphabet after they lost literacy for a few centuries This was a contentious issue in scholarship for decades but more and more the archaeological evidence is weighted toward "they were sacrificing children." https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 16:04
|
|
|
have we ever considered that maybe carthaginian children were extra annoying though
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 16:05
|
|
|
Fun fact: the Carthaginian alphabet survives as Tifinagh, a script still used by Tuaregs to this day
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 16:40
|
|
|
On the subject of child sacrifice: it was by accounts, a thing that the elite did and not the poor. Why? Because to sacrifice something, what you sacrifice has to be worth something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 18:19
|
|
 Vote closed!Pretty firmly in favour of A A - 37 B - 2 C - 27 looks like we'll be heading for new shores we'll probably be wrapping up Imperator in the next update or two - unless something really unexpected happens - and once CK3 starts, we'll be starting as one of the Carthaginian colonies that somehow survives the dark ages
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 21:20
|
|
|
NewMars was the first to reply with a fact so I vote C oh poo poo I forgot and got here late.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
Oooh, you know, with it being a decentralized coalition of nations with a similar culture, it might be a candidate for being this world's version of the HRE, come EU4
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
hashashash posted:
How are we gonna simulate the Dark Ages, for that matter?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 23:02
|
|
Luca_024 posted:How are we gonna simulate the Dark Ages, for that matter? I'll go into more detail once Imperator is done, but basically -- a few votes, with a healthy dose of random chance (i.e. dice rolls) it'll be sorta experimental, but I can adjust as needed once we get down to it
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
hashashash posted:I'll go into more detail once Imperator is done, but basically -- a few votes, with a healthy dose of random chance (i.e. dice rolls) Oh, that sounds fun. And historically accurate with the random chance, too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
The Romans probably won't hold Forever Grudges!
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2023 07:16
|
|
|
You can't cut back on honoring and avenging the Gods! You will regret this!!!
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2023 22:06
|
|
|
ThatBasqueGuy posted:You can't cut back on honoring and avenging the Gods! You will regret this!!! Recent research indicates that maybe Ancient Carthage should have held back on that just a smidge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2023 02:03
|
|
 Part 9 — Punic Empire — 25 BCE to 50 CE The road from Carthage to Rome was a long one, the poets and histories will tell you. It was a crooked path, caked in sweat and mud, passing through red seas and battlefields, spanning generations and dousing dynasties. It was a path of conquerors and heroes, who tread on bricks wrought from flesh and mortared with blood. But that road is no more. Where that place called Rome once stood, there are only ruins and fast-fading memories, while Carthage… Carthage rises triumphant.  A reconstruction of an ancient Hellenic wall mosaic that once adorned a villa in Beerot; it is dated to the 1st century BCE, and depicts the wolf of Rome prostrated before the elephant of Carthage. And while this seminal chapter might be drawing to a close, it is not yet over… With the Punic Wars finally won, the senators of Carthage clashed over the course that the Republic ought to take into the future — some argued that wars against the (remnant) Romans ought to be continued; others called for a military expedition against Ptolemaic Egypt; but the great lords of the Adirim eventually ruled in favour of peace, and stability, and the renewal of colonisation efforts.  Leading these efforts was the most ancient and venerable family of Mago. Some might have accused them of base treachery, abandoning their Phoenician cousins to the ravages of the Ptolemies and their Macedonian kin, but the Magonids understood a simple truth — Old Phoenicia was already dead. She had been brutally mauled in the conquests of Assyria and Babylon, and then crippled by the siege of Alexander… so when the Ptolemies sacked the city of Tyre and tore down the Great Temple of Melqart, it was almost a mercy. Carthage was the heir and survivor of Phoenicia, but she would not return to the East.  The lands of Phoenicia within Canaan, in the year 20 BCE. Instead, under the leadership of the Magonids, the Republic would look to the West — old maps were remade, new ships were constructed, enterprising settlers were gathered, and for the first time in centuries, expeditions were launched.  The first of these missions made landfall in the troublesome country of Gaul, where a makeshift port was constructed, a crude temple was erected, and wooden dikes were raised into a rudimentary wall. Because the settlers came from the capitol, or perhaps simply because it was an apt name, this budding colony is named Qart Hadasht, or ‘New City’.   That is not to say that the Magonids had a stranglehold on the Republic, however. Far from it — the Barcids continued ruling (and expanding) their domains in Iberia and Italia, and while they paid tribute to Carthage, they slowly gained more autonomy with the passing years and decades.   The Gisgoids were the chief advocates for war against the Ptolemies, but without a mandate from the Adirim, they had to content themselves with donating large sums of gold to rebuild Tyre from afar.   To the north, meanwhile, the newmade colony was already flourishing. Well-positioned on the sea routes spanning north to south, the colony was able to trade the treasures of Africa for Gallic and Pritannic goods at exorbitant profit, which (after a tribute was paid to its mother city) was promptly invested into enlarging and expanding the town. So successful was this colony — the third Qart Hadasht, after the one in Africa and the other in Iberia — that before long, dozens of other towns and cities across Carthage were preparing expeditions of their own.         Iol, Kerkouane, Masva, Utica, Lilybaya, Gergis, Ulizibbira, Amarea, Tabarkon — all would launch colonising missions in the dying years of the 1st century BCE, with hundreds of ships carrying thousands of Punics slowly making their way across the Green Sea, through the Pillars of Herakles, along the coasts of Spania, and into the lesser unknowns of Europa… Some of these ships would be caught in a nasty storm and blown off-course; they were forced to make their landings in most distant, uncharted lands populated by wild, illiterate peoples.    But the rest would not let down their sails until they reached the narrow sea separating Gaul and that bleak, rocky isle the Romans had called Britannia — and seeking to dominate the trade flowing between the two countries, colonies were founded on either side of the White Straits.    Thus, the colonies of Ubon, Kerkouane, Gergis and Lilybaya were founded, named for their mother cities, of course. And for almost half a century after her settlement, New Kerkouane was regarded as the further outpost of the Carthaginian empire… the lands beyond were vast and lawless, after all, full of forests and hills and frozen wastes that offered little in the way of precious resources or trading partners. As the saying goes, however — where there are people, there are Punics — and true enough, trading missions and settler ships would make their way even to those windswept coasts of Germania and Scania.     So influential were these colonies that surrounding tribes and towns would learn the Punic tongue, practice Punic traditions, and even adopt Punic gods into their pantheons —    In vanquishing Rome, Carthage had become the military hegemon in the West; but now, slowly, through trade and traffic and talk, she was becoming the cultural hegemon as well. On the matter of war, Carthage was formally at peace for much of the century — but peace was relative, and while there were no struggles on the scale of the Punic Wars, the far-flung colonies of Carthage regularly took up arms against neighbouring tribes. There were the Armoricans, Tiboccians, and Senonians in Gaul, which pitted Punic mercenaries and war elephants and Celtic berserkers and druid-warriors…   The Dumnonians in Britannia, where painted warriors and scythed chariots could not halt the expansion of New Lilybaya along the River Tamessa…  And the Frisians, Cimbrians, and Goutians in Germania, whose peoples were amongst the most bloodthirsty and savage of Carthage’s many enemies.     Despite fierce resistance, however, these Punic colonies would slowly expand in both territory and population, year by year and war on war. That is not to say that no new colonies were founded, however. If anything, the explorers and settlers became even more ambitious — some established footholds in Pontos and Tauros, others sought new routes to the distant Arabahs and Indias, and a rare few even ventured into that impenetrable West…       Regardless, with the closing of the 1st century BCE and the dawn of the 1st century CE, Carthage and her Punic empire would become entrenched as the sole and undisputed power in the West.  A map of the most important Phoenician (including Punic) and Hellenic (including Roman) colonies at the turn of the century. But for how long? Only time would tell… 
hashashash fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Nov 10, 2023 |
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
Probably one more update to wrap things up, and we'll be done with Imperator
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
It's just a comet, I'm sure no mass migrations driven by warfare or epidemics will follow it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 22:31
|
|
|
Good job guys, we let Jesus be born. If we'd expanded east like I'd wanted, we could have spawn-camped him and prevented the rise of Christianity, but noooOOooooo! Ah well, maybe it's for the best we don't have to be responsible for that shitshow over in Canaan. It's Ptolemy's problem now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 22:53
|
|
|
Asterite34 posted:Good job guys, we let Jesus be born. If we'd expanded east like I'd wanted, we could have spawn-camped him and prevented the rise of Christianity, but noooOOooooo! Jesus is Jewish, and therefore Semitic, and therefore Canaanite, and therefore Phoenician, and therefore Carthaginian, and therefore good news for us.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:12
|
|
|
I'm seeing double... Six Carthages
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:16
|
|
|
We should name one of these cities "New Neo Carthago Nova"!
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Tulip posted:Jesus is Jewish, and therefore Semitic, and therefore Canaanite, and therefore Phoenician, and therefore Carthaginian, and therefore good news for us.  King of the Jews? Nah, more like King of the Punics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:40
|
|
|
I really have to wonder about a lot of foundational things like infrastructure and architecture that descended from the roman empire in western europe and how the carthaginian empire differs in such things here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:54
|
|
|
hashashash posted:offered little in the way of precious resources or trading partners. This specific province has the world's largest amber deposit and accounts for 80% of the world's amber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Coast edit: or maybe it's the one right to its north? Hard for me to really tell without more context. Just think it's funny that Carthage stumbled into essentially a monopoly on amber while being like, man there's nothing to trade around here. fermun fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2023 23:56
|
|
fermun posted:This specific province has the world's largest amber deposit and accounts for 80% of the world's amber nah the punic colony is on the mouth of the Elbe, not kaliningrad
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 00:14
|
|
|
hashashash posted:nah the punic colony is on the mouth of the Elbe, not kaliningrad Ah ok, I just saw on the map there at the end that there appeared to be a red Punic mark in Kaliningrad and confused the picture thought maybe that was the nemunas river that separates kaliningrad from latvia fermun fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jan 16, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 00:17
|
|
fermun posted:Ah ok, I just saw on the map there at the end that there appeared to be a red Punic mark in Kaliningrad and confused the picture thought maybe that was the nemunas river that separates kaliningrad from latvia oh yeah, the end map is just to represent the approximate reach of Punic pops -- so while there's a bunch of Punics in kaliningrad, but we don't directly control it (yet?)
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
NewMars posted:I really have to wonder about a lot of foundational things like infrastructure and architecture that descended from the roman empire in western europe and how the carthaginian empire differs in such things here. There's two big changes that come to mind and one of them is pretty comprehensible and the other is so big I can't really wrap my head around how it would play out. 1) Shift south and west. Africa was a very important part of Rome, especially Egypt, but our center of gravity is in Tunis, and we lack not just Egypt, but Dalmatia, Anatolia, and obviously Gaul. Instead. Iberia takes a lot of the import that Dalmatia had for Rome, and the very powerful Barcids are treating it as a their kind of personal fiefdom, so I expect it will be developed much more strongly than in the past. 2) Coastal shift. This one I kind of struggle to figure out what would really happen. In a lot of ways the competition between Rome and Carthage was a war for if the soul of europe would be thallasocratic or aristocratic. Which isn't to say that Rome didn't take maritime seriously (see: import of Egypt to Rome), but that the main infrastructure Carthage is building is ports first, roads second. And its kind of hard to really figure out in my brain what this means. Cuz in some ways that's more fragile: roads stay and are useful until they get torn up or blocked, but the thing that makes sea trade fall apart is lots of piracy, which can come up much faster when the Carthaginian empire retracts or collapses. Very hard to say!
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 01:09
|
|
|
NewMars posted:I really have to wonder about a lot of foundational things like infrastructure and architecture that descended from the roman empire in western europe and how the carthaginian empire differs in such things here. Much better harbors, lighthouses, etc, but much worse roads or anything overland really.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 01:10
|
|
|
probably allows for a much more cosmopolitan costal/harbor/trade connection throughout europe with a much more indigenous inland, which should create some very interesting dynamics going forward. also probably worth noting all those hellenic colonies down the Elbe
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 01:14
|
|
|
I would argue that maybe roadbuilding is more important, if less centrally planned. Like overland trade routes from inland resource centers to ports around the world would probably create similar levels of infrastructure as the military-logistic roads of Roman rule. Especially if theyre sponsored by the same coastal traders who want these goods
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 01:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 18:15 |
|
|
Buschmaki posted:I would argue that maybe roadbuilding is more important, if less centrally planned. Like overland trade routes from inland resource centers to ports around the world would probably create similar levels of infrastructure as the military-logistic roads of Roman rule. Especially if theyre sponsored by the same coastal traders who want these goods That's indeed how road infrastructure works in many former European colonies, especially in Africa.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2023 02:16
|
|