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Baloogan posted:How is tourism? lol
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Dec 17, 2016 01:57
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Who are venezuelas largest allies? In terms.of with global reach. I ask because comparing Vene to NK is a misgnomer. They arent the same. China is afraid of NK collapsing so they prop them up just enough to stay afloat. Does Venezuela have anyone like that? People are looting buildings, Looters become Freedom Fighters pretty quickly when the police start shooting.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:02
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LeoMarr posted:Who are venezuelas largest allies? In terms.of with global reach. I ask because comparing Vene to NK is a misgnomer. They arent the same. China is afraid of NK collapsing so they prop them up just enough to stay afloat. Does Venezuela have anyone like that? People are looting buildings, Looters become Freedom Fighters pretty quickly when the police start shooting. Cuba, Iran, Bolivia, Nicaragua, a bunch of easily bought tiny island nations, China just because they own half the country, and OPEC members from time to time but not really. I'm glad the only friend the PSUV has left in South America is Bolivia.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:08
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https://twitter.com/DrodriguezVen/status/809053016963870723 Best friends 4eva
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Dec 17, 2016 02:33
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El Hefe posted:Cuba, Iran, Bolivia, Nicaragua, a bunch of easily bought tiny island nations, China just because they own half the country, and OPEC members from time to time but not really. Okay than who would be the biggest foreign loser if venezuela drown in civil war?
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Dec 17, 2016 02:41
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Redczar posted:https://twitter.com/DrodriguezVen/status/809053016963870723 What actually happened was that she burst into the room and then the chancellors from all the other countries got up and left and then she took that pic Sad! LeoMarr posted:Okay than who would be the biggest foreign loser if venezuela drown in civil war? Probably Cuba but there's not going to be a civil war.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:52
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Baloogan posted:How is tourism? The U.S. Department of State warns U.S. citizens against travel to Venezuela due to violent crime, social unrest, and pervasive food and medicine shortages. All U.S. direct-hire personnel and their families assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Caracas are subject to an embassy movement policy that limits their travel within Caracas and other parts of the country. These security measures may restrict the services the Embassy can provide. Country-wide shortages of food, water, medicine, electricity, and other basic goods have led to social unrest, including violence and looting. Security forces have arrested individuals, including U.S. citizens, and detained them for long periods with little or no evidence of a crime. The U.S. Embassy may not be notified of the detention of a U.S. citizen and consular access to detainees may be denied or severely delayed. The detained citizen may be denied access to proper medical care, clean water, and food. This replaces the Travel Warning issued July 15, 2016. Venezuela has one of the world's highest crime rates, including one of the highest homicide rates. Violent crime - including murder, armed robbery, kidnapping, and carjacking - is endemic throughout the country. Armed robberies and street crime take place throughout Caracas and other cities, including in areas frequented by tourists. Heavily armed criminals are known to use grenades and assault rifles to commit crimes at banks, shopping malls, public transportation stations, and universities. Criminals may take advantage of power outages to target victims when lights and security alarms are nonfunctional. Drug traffickers and illegal armed groups are active in the Colombian border states of Zulia, Tachira, and Apure. The political and security situation in Venezuela is unpredictable and can change quickly. Political rallies and demonstrations occur with little notice, and are expected to occur with greater frequency in the coming months in Caracas and throughout the country. Long lines to purchase basic goods are a common occurrence throughout the country and there have been reports of unrest and violence while customers wait, sometimes resulting in looted stores and blocked streets. These incidents elicit a strong police and security force response that can include the use of violence against participants; several deaths have been reported during such protests. Due to shortages of some food and medical supplies, U.S. citizens should be prepared to cover their own needs while in country. In the event that the security climate worsens, U.S. citizens should be responsible for arranging their own travel out of Venezuela. U.S. citizens may be detained and/or deported by Venezuelan immigration officials for not complying with visa or immigration regulations. U.S. citizens traveling to Venezuela must have a valid visa that is appropriate for their specific type of travel (tourism, journalism, employment, study, etc.) Journalists must possess the appropriate accreditation and work visa from the Venezuelan authorities before arriving. International journalists are closely scrutinized and have been expelled and/or detained for lacking appropriate permissions to work in Venezuela or for participation in what could be seen as any anti-government activity, including observing and reporting on public health facilities. * * * Bolded an interesting bit buried in there. I wonder how those papal mediated talks are going.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:00
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quote:International journalists are closely scrutinized and have been expelled and/or detained for lacking appropriate permissions to work in Venezuela or for participation in what could be seen as any anti-government activity, including observing and reporting on public health facilities. That was the bit that stood out to me. Not terribly surprising, but ugh.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:15
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Guess its not the right time to visit. I hate queuing in line anyhow.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:20
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Baloogan posted:Guess its not the right time to visit. I hate queuing in line anyhow.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:26
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wdarkk posted:That was the bit that stood out to me. Not terribly surprising, but ugh. It certainly makes you respect and appreciate the work done by Nicholas Casey for the NYTimes and others.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:25
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There were a few instances of looting yesterday and today in Maracaibo and other places, but I wonder why don't these people go loot the governor's house, or the central bank branch, or the CNE offices or whatever, why do they gotta take their anger against private business owners? Maybe this is exactly what the government wants/expects?
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Dec 17, 2016 22:48
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Maduro just announced that the 100 bills are actually not obsolete, and that they'll be good to use until January 2. Of course, if you already killed yourself depositing the bills because he told you on Sunday that you had 72 hours to get rid of them before they became worthless, you're totally out of luck. Presumably this has to do with the fact that the new bills which were supposed to replace the Bs. 100 note on December 15 actually haven't arrived in the country yet, which Maduro naturally blames on "international sabotage". What a god-awful mess. I cannot believe that this is part of some kind of master plan to accomplish X. This is what happens when you put a gang of ignorant thugs in charge of an entire country.
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Dec 18, 2016 00:24
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Chuck Boone posted:Maduro just announced that the 100 bills are actually not obsolete, and that they'll be good to use until January 2. Of course, if you already killed yourself depositing the bills because he told you on Sunday that you had 72 hours to get rid of them before they became worthless, you're totally out of luck. I'm one of those who deposited all their money in the bank. Now banks will have massive queues with people withdrawing and praying they won't get mugged as soon as they leave the bank. Fun times await us.
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Dec 18, 2016 00:33
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And the borders with Colombia and Brazil are sealed "until at least 2 January". Obviously smuggling criminal enterprises that are hoarding billions of BsF will be unable to somehow get these across the border if the normal border posts are closed. Because if we know anything, it's that closing official borders means all criminal activity is also closed. Every thing I see about this is so mind-bogglingly stupid and transparently bullshit that I don't understand how even a single person can genuinely toe the government line, but it looks as if nearly 25% of the population is as brainwashed as your average North Korean (based on Maduro's approval ratings — if those can be believed?). That's honestly pretty impressive feat, since the PSUV has only been in power for 17 years, there is and always has been easily-accessible independent media reporting and open opposition, and presumably primary education has only been pushing the PSUV agenda for < 15 years, so most adults should have gotten their education prior to PSUV domination. I feel worse every time I read this thread, but I just can't stop coming back. I started reading this thread after the AN vote last year because I thought it was going to be an example of how things could turn around :/.
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Dec 18, 2016 01:42
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The exchange rate was around Bs4500 per $ last week but it has gone down dramatically and it's now at about Bs2500 per $ Good job Maduro for once? maybe just a coincidence? who the gently caress knows this country is retarded
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Dec 18, 2016 02:30
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El Hefe posted:The exchange rate was around Bs4500 per $ last week but it has gone down dramatically and it's now at about Bs2500 per $ Who knows indeed. How far does inflation have to fall before the goods shortage starts to correct? Won't inflation start rising again if/when the government overprints the new Bs500 bill? Is there a danger PSUV corruption breaks banks not in the PSUV pocket by withholding new currency, causing bank runs and further financial collapse? I never doubt the ability of Maduro's administration to gently caress up things more.
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Dec 18, 2016 04:55
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Pity Party Animal posted:Who knows indeed. How far does inflation have to fall before the goods shortage starts to correct? Won't inflation start rising again if/when the government overprints the new Bs500 bill? Is there a danger PSUV corruption breaks banks not in the PSUV pocket by withholding new currency, causing bank runs and further financial collapse? The inflation isn't really what's causing goods shortages, it's the lack of hard currency. Even if the currency stopped inflating tomorrow morning, and even fell back to the value it held years ago, very few people in other countries want it in exchange for importable goods. The inflation is inflicting further misery on all of Venezuela of course, so it's not like it's ok on its own. But fixing it would barely help to get goods on the shelf.
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Dec 18, 2016 05:15
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The government seems to be actively hostile to the idea of Venezuelan domestic industry, so without a magical oil recovery the balance is payments is only going to get more hosed.
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Dec 18, 2016 06:22
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LeoMarr posted:Okay than who would be the biggest foreign loser if venezuela drown in civil war? China owns something like half of the oil in the country as repayment for their loans so it's definitely them. The question is whether or not the Chinese are willing to keep doubling down on their investment to keep the country afloat. They may not care about the people slowly wasting away but they've got to be pissed about the years of neglect and incompetence destroying the oil infrastructure.
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Dec 18, 2016 15:48
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Ciudad Bolivar is in its 4th day of looting. The city is the capital of Bolivar state and has a population of about 350,000 people. Here's a video from there taken this morning: https://twitter.com/GuanareWeb/status/810566199838965760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw Maduro just spoke on TV and he said that the new bills would arrive today. He said that they were supposed to arrive earlier, but Obama somehow got the planes to turn around or something. It's not at all clear what exactly Maduro says happened beyond "the US did this".
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Dec 18, 2016 22:15
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Comrayn posted:China owns something like half of the oil in the country as repayment for their loans so it's definitely them. The question is whether or not the Chinese are willing to keep doubling down on their investment to keep the country afloat. They may not care about the people slowly wasting away but they've got to be pissed about the years of neglect and incompetence destroying the oil infrastructure. China has already said, "no more loans", and this was a few months back. They are done chasing bad money with good. Last I heard they were negotiating with the opposition to try and ensure that the previous loans are honored in the event of a change in government. Short of sending an army of peace keepers, I doubt China has any way of really changing the situation on the ground.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:46
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Saladman posted:And the borders with Colombia and Brazil are sealed "until at least 2 January". Obviously smuggling criminal enterprises that are hoarding billions of BsF will be unable to somehow get these across the border if the normal border posts are closed. Because if we know anything, it's that closing official borders means all criminal activity is also closed. It wouldn't surprise me if there's some denial-based thinking like "This is the suffering to reach the better times just around the corner!" in whatever pockets of genuine support still exist. Especially if those pockets weren't doing too well pre-Chavismo, and can forgive hiccups in the practice of it today since Chavez is dead and "It will take time for Maduro to find his footing!". Or it's an investment in Chavismo ideology first and foremost, and since Maduro is probably the only real Chavismo leader right now, it's "ˇMi presidente, correcto o no!" and staying the course until someone better comes along to revitalize the movement. Making do with what they have and is known, even though its not working. That's my armchair psychology of why there might still be genuine pro-PSUV support in the country, despite the situation today, but anyone who's actually there is free to blow it away with their perspective, of course.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:48
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I think they still have some popular support (some say it's at 20%) because those people still buy into their propaganda somehow, they are starving and they get robbed every week but they still buy the government's reasoning that it's all the fault of the United States and "rich" people, that's why they loot regular businesses whenever they get angry.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:06
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I've talked with some pro-PSUV people and their continued support comes from gratitude because they got a house or medical procedures paid by the goverment along with believing the anti US propaganda. Also they bought into the 'having things is bad' mindset.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:22
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Blue Nation posted:I've talked with some pro-PSUV people and their continued support comes from gratitude because they got a house or medical procedures paid by the goverment along with believing the anti US propaganda. Also they bought into the 'having things is bad' mindset. This is my experience too - our fieldwork fixer in Pto. Ayacucho receives a state pension and had a house built for him by Misión Vivienda. He's a knowledgeable and extremely canny guy, but the government is his big blind spot, as it simply cannot do wrong and the Economic War is real etc. etc.. I have witnessed some marvelous mental acrobatics from him explaining why he sent his kids to live with family in Barranquilla (Colombia) while still extolling the strength and benefits of Bolivarian life in Venezuela. A regeneration is right around the corner, any day now, because Venezuela is so rich with natural resources. Oh but he's also against the Arco Minero because it despoils the natural beauty of the country. This February I hope to get him to explain how he thinks minerals are extracted without huge mining operations.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:18
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Every December just gets sadder, I remember how people used to put up Christmas decorations, there were gaitas playing everywhere, malls were full of people buying stuff, etc now you see none of that stuff.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:52
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Just saw a video of the looting in Ciudad Bolivar and one of the guys looting says "this is what happens when people are hungry!" when in the background you can see them loot an electronics shop...
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Dec 19, 2016 17:46
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Venezuela is just heralding the status quo of 21st century.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:53
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Vlex posted:This is my experience too - our fieldwork fixer in Pto. Ayacucho receives a state pension and had a house built for him by Misión Vivienda. He's a knowledgeable and extremely canny guy, but the government is his big blind spot, as it simply cannot do wrong and the Economic War is real etc. etc.. I have witnessed some marvelous mental acrobatics from him explaining why he sent his kids to live with family in Barranquilla (Colombia) while still extolling the strength and benefits of Bolivarian life in Venezuela. A regeneration is right around the corner, any day now, because Venezuela is so rich with natural resources. Oh but he's also against the Arco Minero because it despoils the natural beauty of the country. This February I hope to get him to explain how he thinks minerals are extracted without huge mining operations. What happens in february?
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Dec 19, 2016 18:32
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El Hefe posted:Just saw a video of the looting in Ciudad Bolivar and one of the guys looting says "this is what happens when people are hungry!" when in the background you can see them loot an electronics shop... Those might be the words, but that's not what he's saying.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:33
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Friendly Humour posted:Those might be the words, but that's not what he's saying. Of course it is, so they hungry and they're gonna take it out on any private business they see? why not go to the governor's house? to the mayor's? go loot a Mercal instead?
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Dec 19, 2016 18:41
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El Hefe posted:Of course it is, so they hungry and they're gonna take it out on any private business they see? why not go to the governor's house? to the mayor's? go loot a Mercal instead? cuz they got men with guns.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:43
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Friendly Humour posted:cuz they got men with guns. Ah so they do it because private businesses are easy targets, right.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:46
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El Hefe posted:Ah so they do it because private businesses are easy targets, right. Hey, you asked. But whatever makes it easier to pick a side in a state of anarchy when the men with the guns start marching up and down the lanes.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:53
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El Hefe posted:Of course it is, so they hungry and they're gonna take it out on any private business they see? why not go to the governor's house? to the mayor's? go loot a Mercal instead? Private businesses have valuables that get food, and at this point it seems electronics hold decent enough trade value (esp when people buy into being told it will be fixed) to get food, cash, whatever. Officials have guards. edit: but yeah, still is irritating as poo poo, but I've seen it happen during crisis in more temporary disturbances.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:55
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Friendly Humour posted:Hey, you asked. But whatever makes it easier to pick a side in a state of anarchy when the men with the guns start marching up and down the lanes. The looters had guns too, they assaulted private residences as well. A typical Venezuelan barrio has more weapons than your average American city police, including rocket launchers, assault weapons and grenades.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:58
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Rushi posted:Private businesses have valuables that get food, and at this point it seems electronics hold decent enough trade value (esp when people buy into being told it will be fixed) to get food, cash, whatever. Officials have guards. Mercals have food as well why not go loot one of those? there are plenty of valuables to steal from the governor's house as well.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:00
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El Hefe posted:The looters had guns too, they assaulted private residences as well. Not to dispute the overall point you are making, but I think you are underestimating just how much surplus military hardware your typical American police department has.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:06
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El Hefe posted:Mercals have food as well why not go loot one of those? there are plenty of valuables to steal from the governor's house as well. Well you can steal food and get enough for a day, or steal a few computers/tvs/whatever and be a lot better off (selling/trading to smugglers or whoever), whether it be for for personal greed/gain or because you have a big family. It's fast, easy, and super low risk with a huge payoff. So stealing from rich stores with valuables is the best/easiest solution. Stealing from officials is high risk (getting shot by trained security). And then the officials blame the rich who sell foreign electronics, who everyone steals from. It's almost like its set up that way to put the low and middle classes against each other.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:08
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