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Cradok posted:It was Vanilla, most things were funny pranks played on players. Druids were utterly godawful. I still have no idea how I managed to get one to 60. I literally would swap to bear form and just alt-tab to play solitaire because hitting buttons didn't meaningfully affect my damage. The alternative was cat form, but I'd have to rest after each enemy because it was complete garbage. Thankfully Blizzard eventually learned that making hybrids garbage at every role because they could do more than one thing (just, you know, INCREDIBLY poorly) was a really bad design decision. This was also before heal over time spells stacked, so you didn't even get good usage out of the few good spells that druids had.
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May 1, 2023 03:06
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On the other hand, Moonfire and Entangling Roots made Druids great in PvP, along with shapeshifting to break past most forms of crowd control.
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May 1, 2023 08:36
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ApplesandOranges posted:On the other hand, Moonfire and Entangling Roots made Druids great in PvP, along with shapeshifting to break past most forms of crowd control. It was fun to run the flag in warsong gulch, but beyond that they just didn't do damage. Moonfire was very mana-inefficient, and all 3 talent trees were an absolute joke - the talents did basically nothing to actually make any of your abilities do anything. And that was really the biggest problem - even if you specialized in something (with both gear and skill, and bearing in mind that gear itemization was also godawful), you were still maybe 2/3 to 3/4 as good as a dedicated class. It doesn't mean much to be a swiss army knife when everyone else is using proper tools. Edit: I should be clear here, I'm talking Vanilla talent trees, like when the game first came out. Back when Innervate was a 31 point restoration ability and your only use in Molten Core was giving mana back to a priest who could actually heal people. There was no moonkin form, there were no synergies. The class was just terrible. Feral was either a rogue that couldn't do damage or CC enemies, or a warrior that couldn't take hits or deal damage. Balance existed to drain your mana pool for virtually no damage, and you had to melee once you were out of mana, and restoration was okay, but only one rejuvinate could be cast per target, so if you had more than one druid, they couldn't stack two rejuvinates on the same target. Dirk the Average fucked around with this message at 10:35 on May 1, 2023 |
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May 1, 2023 10:30
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Folks, I'd rather hoped posting a new update would encourage y'all to stop the random talk about WoW class mechanics and PvP stuff. Please stop talking about random WoW class mechanics issues.
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May 1, 2023 11:48
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every fictional setting is improved with bird people, imo
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May 1, 2023 12:43
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AriadneThread posted:every fictional setting is improved with bird people, imo 
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May 1, 2023 14:01
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AriadneThread posted:every fictional setting is improved with bird people, imo 
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May 1, 2023 14:56
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And while "shadow and light, but light is bad and shadow good" isn't exactly the most original of themes, it went really well in case of alt-time arakkoa.
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May 1, 2023 15:21
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Cythereal posted:
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May 1, 2023 15:44
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Szarrukin posted:And while "shadow and light, but light is bad and shadow good" isn't exactly the most original of themes, it went really well in case of alt-time arakkoa. If you’re involving shadow and light as entities at all, it kind of can’t be original? It’s not like ‘light good, shadow bad’ wins originality points either.
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May 1, 2023 17:45
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I like missions like this (well, the concept, not necessarily the execution) in RTS because it does test the player. It's the limited resources part that I like, especially since you are still stuck with those limitations even if you cheat. A good example I always think of is from Chaos Island: The Lost World. In one mission you have to go through a gauntlet (literally called a "valley of death") to complete your objectives and finish the mission, but your resources are extremely limited, the mission briefing mentions several times you have no way of getting additional resources once the mission begins. Now, this being an RTS, there are obviously cheats to get more resources even if they aren't available on the map, but the devs programmed the mission so you could not do any actions that required using resources, you can't build additional structures, you can't recruit more team members, and you can't do any stat upgrading. The only thing you can do to make the mission easier is hatch any eggs you have collected in previous missions, or spread out your upgrades to your main team members in previous missions, because the more upgraded they are, the more expensive they are to "hire" for each mission. You've pumped all available upgrades into one character, but that means you can't hire anyone else for this mission and if they die, welp, start over. So things like limited upgrades and not being able to get more Death Knights makes sense. Also, you point out that you don't get any trolls but that's not actually true, at the top of the map, if you go to the right instead of the left to continue the mission, there is another area you can unload onto and it has a lumber mill and several more units (ogres and trolls). Of course, this does require spending more time exploring in the mission and I can understand why you didn't because you want to finish the game but I just wanted to point out for anyone else that this mission isn't THAT cruel
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May 1, 2023 20:57
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I both like and loathe limited-unit missions. It gets over the repeated "rebuild your tech tree"-repeated in every mission and it skips the late-mission doldrums, after you've overtaken the enemy and are just grinding them down, but at the same time many of them are "puzzle" missions in the Sierra tradition of "psychically intuit which grunt must wear the cat hair moustache or start over."
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May 1, 2023 21:02
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Me, I'm so bad at RTS that I feel like I'm not qualified to say, really. I acknowledge that this mission was harder than most for what felt like unfair reasons, but it's not like y'all are here for flawless gameplay.  I just don't have good reflexes, situational awareness, or ability to micromanage. There's a reason I almost always play games on the easiest difficulty and/or cheat.
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May 1, 2023 21:06
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This feels like a mission that was much more fun to design in the map editor than to play in ignorance. It's basically a series of puzzles that you need to solve with limited resources, some of which are disposable shields and others that are vital to protect but no indication of which is which. And you don't have each puzzle area marked, so you figure out you've reached a puzzle until a paladin obliterates your death knight the second you unload your transport. It creates a system where you have to fail just to figure out what to do next time. Meanwhile, if you made the map, you can see where all the puzzles are and what they are and build a strategy of what tools you need to protect and which ones are needed for each puzzle. The while thing feels more fair when you mess up.
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May 1, 2023 21:23
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I've said it before, but just save the game before rounding a corner and after successfully solving a "puzzle". Being able to reload any situation gone wrong is the strongest and only cheat you'll ever need. Paladin blows up your death knight? Oops it's 2 min earlier now and I know where you are now motherfucker.
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May 1, 2023 22:05
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Right, but I'm saying frustrating that the paladin will murk your death knight before you know it's there. Or God help you if you think you only need to protect the death knight only to find out the demon from the briefing is one of those nearly never used ones that have showed up in one(?) other map. The player having map vision/knowledge eliminates pretty much every major frustration in the level, right down to 7 units - 1 boat. Because if you had map vision you could see you needed to leave a dude behind and then look ahead to figure out who, at which point you'd see the paladin. And if you didn't? Then the reload isn't because you weren't psychic, it's because you made a mistake you learned from. It feels a lot better.
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May 1, 2023 22:24
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FoolyCharged posted:This feels like a mission that was much more fun to design in the map editor than to play in ignorance. It's basically a series of puzzles that you need to solve with limited resources, some of which are disposable shields and others that are vital to protect but no indication of which is which. And you don't have each puzzle area marked, so you figure out you've reached a puzzle until a paladin obliterates your death knight the second you unload your transport. It creates a system where you have to fail just to figure out what to do next time. the worst one of these was the last mission in Starcraft: Brood War, where they give you a unit with infinite-though-slowly-regenerating mind control capabilities. the solution to an easy 90% of the puzzles was "wait like three minutes for the dark archon to be able to cast mind control again, then move forward, and have the archon mind control the biggest unit in the enemy pack mid-engagement." playing that poo poo legitimately was the most boring poo poo imaginable
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May 1, 2023 22:51
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the worst one of these was the last mission in Starcraft: Brood War, where they give you a unit with infinite-though-slowly-regenerating mind control capabilities. the solution to an easy 90% of the puzzles was "wait like three minutes for the dark archon to be able to cast mind control again, then move forward, and have the archon mind control the biggest unit in the enemy pack mid-engagement." I literally just played through Brood War and I don't remember this at all. The only mission that really uses Dark Archons is the second last Protoss mission where it's easy to just mass the poo poo out of them and swipe all the enemies carriers and reavers.
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May 2, 2023 17:32
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They're talking about the secret mission that's unlocked by beating the penultimate Zerg mission in 20 min or less, not a mission in the Protoss campaign.
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May 2, 2023 17:36
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Chill, y'all. This isn't a Starcraft thread.
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May 2, 2023 17:41
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Oh forgot about that one, that mission sucks.
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May 2, 2023 17:41
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Good Lord, this next mission is obnoxious even with cheats. Those with the skill to do these missions legit, I respect but do not comprehend you.
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May 6, 2023 01:56
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My brain just doesn't work fast enough for a lot of RTS games, especially with the poor interfaces of the older games of the same era as WC2. I've been watching some professional SC2 stuff recently and it is amazing the amount of information that the players glean from the slightest bit of movement by the enemy. And then there's the micro skills where one of their units is easily worth 5-6x as much as one of my units that I just attack move into the enemy. As amazing as RTS games are in theory, there's a reason I prefer turn based games or Paradox games that are semi-real time but with pausing.
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May 6, 2023 02:21
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Personally I stick to campaigns, maybe custom or modded campaigns if they’re not too ballbustingly difficult. Though I have made an exception to that in the last few years, it had too much stuff I appreciate to not follow it. Won’t discuss it here though, wrong thread for it.
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May 6, 2023 02:42
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I think WC3 is the only RTS game I've played. I enjoyed it and the map design and balance they put into it is fascinating from a mechanical standpoint, but it's very much a casual game for me (that I don't even play anymore because Blizzard is bad).
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May 6, 2023 05:48
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I may have stated this before, I'll say it again. I enjoyed WC1 and WC2 a long time ago, I have never enjoyed WC3. I have since lost interest in these games, my gaming journey has taken me in different directions. Nevertheless, WC1 and 2 (mostly 2) remain important games for me. I enjoyed playing them and learned much about managing units & buildings. I laughed along with the dialogue, I was challenged quite often, I had fun with the games when I played them. It is also true that when I have approached the idea of playing them today, I have always backed down. Outdated technology, boredom with something I've beaten many times before, frustration with Blizzard's writing since WC2, and other games that have since captured my interest are a few of the things that have kept me away from playing WC games. Despite not wanting to play the games again, I still enjoy Lets Plays of them. This LP is definitely one such LP. Cythreal, the author, has a very down to earth relatable style, their fanfiction is well-written and amusing; it is easy to bring back my memories of the games through reading this LP. All this, I enjoy. I acknowledge the frustrations Cythreal experiences throughout their play, I hope they can get past them and stick with the game through to completion. The last few missions of the expansion- Human 12, Human 11, Orc 12 I think- these are among the most memorable parts of the game for me. I want to see what Cythreal thinks of them, and what others think of them too. I also want to keep enjoying the LP in general, and I want the same for the author, and every other fan. I wouldn't have finished the WC2 expansion without cheat codes, I don't think. I will say that too. Even with them, I still found it challenging in various ways at various times. It is fun reliving these memories. Keep up the good work, Cythreal. You have my support. That of many other fans also, I am certain. 
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May 6, 2023 08:38
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I disliked parts of WC3, its writing in particular, but after seeing where things went after WC3 I have a hard time not looking back on it fondly.
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May 6, 2023 08:54
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Happy (?) one year anniversary, thread, and thank you everyone who's stuck with it this far.  Give or take a day based on time zones. Alliance 9: The Planet Killers   Are your forces ready? They are. Scrying indicates the man in command here is named Teron Gorefiend, one of Gul'dan's most trusted lieutenants. Our local guides have told us that this was the site of one of the Horde's bloodiest conquests when they seized control of Draenor. This was a holy place, once. I'm not one for hyperbole, Khadgar, but even the regular soldiers can tell how thin reality is here. We can't afford to waste time with reclaiming the region, I'm sorry. Understood. Should you prevail today, then by my authority as a lord of Dalaran you have a general's rank waiting for you upon your return. Save your trinkets for someone who values them. Alterac was always deemed the least among the nations before this war, and I don't want your pity now. I... You deserve reward for your part in all of this, Azélie. The things I desire are not in your power to give, Khadgar. I'll be in touch when I have the book. Today we're at one of the more storied locations in Warcraft according to Chronicles: the draenei temple-city of Karabor. Or, as Karabor became known following its sacking and desecration by the Horde, the Black Temple. This is retroactively the first appearance of the Black Temple in Warcraft, and it won't be the last.   So, out of curiosity, what do you desire? To not see Alterac burning every night. In the absence of one impossibility, I'll take another: to prevent what I did from happening to anyone else. Well this is all incredibly depressing. I'll bring up the construction battalion. So your turn, sunshine. We did my share of soul-searching before, and twiggy is certifiable case. What do you want? That's simple enough. I want to grow old with my husband and kids, and hopefully grandkids and great-grandkids. It's that simple for you? I'm an elf, fluffy. You don't get to my age without learning to not complicate your life any more than you have to. I invited enough complications when I fell in love with a dwarf. Sooner or later, Xiulan, you and your princess are going to have it out. It may or may not be satisfying. Get the hormones and emotional instabilities out of your system and get on with your lives. Bold of you to assume I haven't spent time with camp followers. Oh, please. You take yourself way too seriously for that. You have a tragic martyr stick lodged so far up your rear end it's amazing you can sit down. If you got that far with anyone you'd be awash with guilt for having a little humanity. You infected Xiulan with that same nonsense, too, caught her up in your own self loathing. So this is the only undefended gold mine, in the center of the bottom of the map. You will be attacked by four Horde factions: Bonechewers from the east with infantry and catapults, Shattered Hand from the north with infantry and catapults, Warsong dragons and infantry from the northwest, and Shadowmoon death knights from the northeast.  The last are by far the most dangerous even when cheating. They will sweep out of the fog, fire off Death and Decay - which will destroy or nearly so any towers and units in the area - and death coil on units, and retreat without stopping for a moment. My best guess for how you're meant to fight this, since unlike the final Alliance mission of Tides of Darkness the Horde can and will replace their losses, is with superlative map awareness and micro with paladins and exorcism. Which you need to rush for.   Can we please get back to killing orcs now? Do adults always have to make things so complicated? Most of us, yeah. Miss uncomplicated over there once manned a stolen Horde catapult battering down Bleeding Hollow fortifications. Really? That happened one time. The geography of this map, of course, doesn't match up to WoW's depiction of Shadowmoon Valley and the Black Temple. It's plausible that this stretch of land to the south of the Black Temple was simply destroyed in the coming whoopsie, but there is an Alliance base in modern-day Shadowmoon Valley to the west of the Temple instead of the south. If I had to guess...  I'd say that WoW's layout of Shadowmoon Valley envisioned this map as being an attack on what is now the volcano known as the Hand of Gul'dan, with the Alliance base from this mission being what is now the Wildhammer Stronghold. Chronicles, much later, is what established that this mission was an attack on the Black Temple.  I also wonder, now, if perhaps I was meant to rush this Bonechewer base in the east right from the start before it can develop, getting a much more secure base position. Early aggression just isn't my style in RTS so the thought never occurred to me at the time.  Reinforcing this theory is our first sighting of yellow forces in this game, a prison compound with some high-end Alliance units including a precious ballista. In another universe where there was a high-quality remake of Warcraft 2, these would probably be draenei forces.  Play it larger, and in such a remake you might have something like the Alliance expedition rallying and uniting a coalition of the races attacked and victimized by the Horde. The draenei most obviously, and as I discovered in last week's lore post, the Alliance in Chronicles was joined by a few arakkoa who served the Light. Expand on that, involve the draenei more heavily, add some Gorian Empire remnants and you'd have yourself a party.  And/or play Beyond the Dark Portal as a much smaller-scale affair centering on a consistent cast of powerful hero units. Think the transition from Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 2, for those who played those games. You already have a raft of hero units on both sides for this expansion and could lean into it.  Relatedly, here's Teron Gorefiend. He canonically does die in this battle, though it doesn't keep thanks to WoW player characters being morons.  I know my issues with Beyond the Dark Portal aren't really the game's fault. The game is a product of its time and was intended for a different audience than I.  It's an old game and I've run out of steam.  I looked away for ten seconds and my gryphons murdered each other with friendly fire.  On a more positive accident, I found a way to stop the death knight strikes on my base. They instead waste all their time (and more importantly, mana) trying to kill this flying machine with cyclones but for whatever reason seem to do almost no damage to it, rather than laying waste to my base.  Fair's fair, I think I also underestimated this project in general.  Real life issues admittedly have not helped, much as I've tried to keep them from impacting this LP.  Warcraft is starting to like this particular trick.  For a bit of extra WoW story, the temple-city of Karabor, the Black Temple, is something of a sore spot with Alliance players from WoW.  When the Warlords of Draenor expansion was announced, the expansion set in an alternate timeline of Draenor, Karabor was previewed as an Alliance city. The Alliance, it seemed, would not only get to see this storied location in its original glory, Karabor would be their main hub for the expansion.  The Horde, for reference, seemed to be getting Bladespire Hold, a massive castle-city originally built by the ogres. Less popular than the Alliance getting Karabor, but Bladespire Hold had its fans.  We know, in hindsight, that by the time of these announcements, Blizzard had in fact already decided to do no such thing.  Both locations, while gorgeous (well, Bladespire Hold was gorgeous if you're into barbaric brutalism which I think more than a few Horde fans are), were also empty. Both were used only for a few quests, nothing more.  We know in hindsight that much of what Blizzard announced about Warlords of Draenor at that time was a lie. Warlords was a product of Blizzard trying to change their processes to churn out expansions much more rapidly, Blizzard had failed in that attempt, and Blizzard had already given up Warlords of Draenor as a lost cause by the time the expansion was revealed.  Now, many players would argue that this had been the correct decision, the next expansion - Legion - would be widely held as one of the game's best.  Karabor seems to be a magnet for disappointment. I'm not looking forward to talking about this place again in Warcraft 3.  Let's just say that this time, the gap between players going 'Dude that's some really hosed up poo poo if you think about it' and Blizzard making a half-hearted effort to do something about it was fifteen years.  But that is a tale for another time.
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May 6, 2023 21:11
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In honor of the thread's one year anniversary, have this instead of a fluff piece. Tales from Another Timeline: The Dragon and the Lion A chime awoke the king and queen of Stormwind from their slumber. Two women murmured and turned beneath luxurious blue covers embroidered with the roaring lion and striking dragonhawk that had become the royal banner following the ascent of Isidora Turan to the throne. A second chime, louder, provoked a half-awake curse from Katrana Turan, Queen of Stormwind. With a noise that was half yawn and half tired groan, Katrana reached over to the nightstand and touched the deactivation rune on the elf-made clock. The morning sun had barely begun to peer through the drapes that shielded the royal bedroom, but Onyxia, daughter of Deathwing, pushed back the covers from her human visage and sat up. "Do we really have to be up this early?" The king of Stormwind muttered next to Katrana. "The ambassador's ship isn't expected to be here until the afternoon." Katrana smiled as she ran a hand through her drowsy wife's hair. Hair black as obsidian, shining in the early morning light. Almost the same shade as Onyxia's scales. Katrana had always found that her wife's most attractive feature, a touch of home and family. The king of Stormwind reminded Onyxia of home and family, too. That willingness to face the truth about the world, however unpleasant, and deal with that truth as it stood. That was what had always divided Onyxia and her kin from their cousins, that unwillingness to believe in the lie of a wholesome or caring world and instead accept the truth of what Azeroth was. Let the Dragonqueen call integrity madness, but the king of Stormwind was, Onyxia believed, cut from the same cloth. Katrana simply kissed her wife gently on the cheek and smiled at her, framed by the amber rays of the morning sun. "Not until this afternoon, no," Katrana finally answered, "But you'll need to dress in your full regalia for this. Also your hair and makeup and jewelry. That's a few hours right there. Are you really going to disappoint Marianne?" Mentioning the name of King Isidora Turan's handmaiden triggered a long and colorful series of curses from Katrana's wife, but the king of Stormwind did finally push back the bedcovers and roll her legs over the side of the bed. Isidora Turan looked back at her wife with a wry smile. "The sooner Varian is old enough to take the throne, the better." The king concluded. "I miss being a general." Another point in Isidora's favor, as far as Onyxia was concerned. The king of Stormwind had amply proven herself as a military commander of renown, and her willingness to defy convention and explore unorthodox acquaintances was poised to earn Stormwind a variety of intriguing new friends. By the same measure her utter disinterest in bureaucracy and civil politics had lead her to trust Katrana, a woman with a great deal of experience in governance. That trust had been very useful to Onyxia, and even Onyxia's father had been persuaded of the logic of leaving Isidora Turan in place for the time being. Katrana smiled to herself as she rose out of bed and opened the drapes over the windows. Isidora Turan had shown an entirely reasonable degree of circumspection and wariness when she had met Duke Daval Prestor and Lord Victor Nefarius during the grand festival celebrating the war's end, but Countess Katrana Prestor had smoothed things over. The newly crowned king had been prepared to trust a certain degree of distrust, and was entirely too cynical and filled with regret to seriously contemplate a love match. Katrana looked out the window at her city, golden in the morning light. Already Stormwind was busy about starting its day, and the wind carried the faint sounds and smells of a city waking up. Even Onyxia found the sight noteworthy for all that it had become routine. Limited humans might be, but they worked diligently and well with what little their makers had deigned to give them. If only they knew what they had been designed for, for designed they had been. Onyxia wanted to spread her wings, stretch and fly in that golden morning sun. This morning was a good time for hunting, when prey was focused on its own desires and did not look at the skies above. How limited this form was, the visage so beloved by many. All for the greater good. "Enjoy the view while you can." The king of Stormwind chided her daydreaming wife. "You're going to be right there with me for all the royal protocols." Katrana nodded and tidied her nightgown, expecting the door to the bedroom to open at any moment for breakfast. "If our reports on Hexlord Raal and Wardruid Loti are accurate, they'll tire of the ceremonies as quickly as we will." In fact Onyxia knew for certain that they would. This idea of opening formal diplomatic relations with a human kingdom had not been favored by King Rastakhan of Zandalar, but enough of his council had voted in favor that he had agreed to dispatch the two youngest members of the Zanchuli Council to see Stormwind for themselves. "Rendering formal honors to trolls in Stormwind." Katrana could hear the amused smile on Isidora's face. "What a world Azeroth is turning out to be." This time Katrana outright laughed. Oh, how little her wife knew. The idea had sprung from Isidora's father in law at the royal wedding. Daval Prestor had wondered in a speech, given as father of the new queen, whether Stormwind would seek new horizons in the wake of the Horde's destruction or merely reclaim what had been lost. Isidora had taken the idea to heart. Isidora had been very, very useful to Onyxia. Pragmatic, but trusting. Unorthodox, but shaped by societal expectations. Proud, but guilty. Superbly able in a select range of skills and qualities, hopelessly out of her depth in others. So useful, in fact, that Onyxia had argued to her father and brother that they should let this diplomatic summit happen without interference, instead of assassinating both Isidora and King Rastakhan's emissaries in the harbor. Agents loyal to the black could manufacture plenty of evidence in both Stormwind and Zandalar to support the desired conclusions. Stormwind had barely survived the Horde. Inviting a vengeful Zandalar to attack would finish the kingdom for good, and easy at that. There were those in Zandalar poised to benefit enormously from such an enterprise. When Onyxia had instead argued that the notion was short-sighted and a more patient strategy would pay greater rewards in the long run, Nefarian had accused Onyxia of caring too much for her visage and assumed life. And that, Onyxia reflected, was the real issue. Her purpose required Katrana. Katrana's purpose required Isidora. To accomplish that purpose required that Katrana hold Isidora in affection and warmth. The greater Isidora's affection for Katrana, the greater influence Katrana had with Isidora. In human terms, Katrana needed Isidora to love her. The easiest way to get Isidora to love her was to love Isidora first. And Isidora made that an easy task for Katrana. Her raven-dark hair, her shy and uncertain smile she reserved only for her closest intimates, her strength as she persevered despite her injuries, her clear-eyed vision for the future, her iron will unbroken by life's troubles. She was bound to be short-lived as all humans were, and Onyxia knew enough magic of the mind to see the creeping tendrils at work in the human's brain. Onyxia's brother would of course have counseled simple mind-affecting magics, but Katrana demurred. Such magics always risked damaging the subject's own will and intelligence, and such would be noticed by Stormwind. Katrana's purpose needed a hale and mindful Isidora, and Katrana's purpose was the same as Onyxia's purpose. Wasn't it? All Onyxia had to do was wait. What the humans called the grey mists would inevitably start to eat at Isidora Turan's mind within the next few years. She had ten, perhaps fifteen years at most before she would become incapable of ruling Stormwind. The young prince, Varian, had already taken a liking to 'auntie Katrana' and her tales of travel far beyond Stormwind's borders. The dowager queen, Taria, was a nuisance and easily removed when the time came. Stormwind proudly boasted the lion as their symbol, now often paired, dueling with a striking dragonhawk in honor of House Turan's heraldry, but lion and dragonhawk could both be tamed. A subservient human kingdom, Onyxia had argued to her father and brother, was a priceless opportunity unlikely to come again in the next century or two. For now, her father had agreed and overruled her brother's objections. Only for now. What Katrana had wanted to ask, though, was to save Isidora. All the dragonflights had made drakonids out of deserving mortals on occasion, after all, and Katrana had fondly imagined Isidora with scales as dark as her hair, turning that aggressive strategic mind and willingness to defy convention to seek a winning solution to the dragonflight's cause. Isidora might struggle, at first, but she had enough intellectual integrity to accept the truth of the Old Gods and what Azeroth's fate would be. She'd faced Cho'Gall and the Twilight's Hammer, after all. Yet Katrana also knew, deep down inside, that that was not to be her wife's fate. Deathwing had taught Nefarian, his son, the art of making servants out of mortals. His daughter had been relegated to the role of broodmother. The very act of asking Onyxia's family to turn Isidora fully to their cause would make them deem the king unworthy, and likely Onyxia herself for asking. The door to the royal bedchambers opened and a servant brought in a tray with breakfast for the king and queen. A morning respite before the handmaidens came with their brushes and dresses. Isidora Turan knew that distant, troubled look that had come over her at times absentminded wife that morning. She even knew that her beloved queen was mulling over some problem in the back of her mind. If only you knew, Katrana and Onyxia thought in unison over the smell of warm morning tea. If only you knew.
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May 6, 2023 21:12
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I like the fluff pieces, you write good fiction and I like the romances you set up. Also with regards to your issues with BtDP "not being the game's fault," I kind of think that they absolutely are. In my memory most RTS expansions from this era very much catered to the "elite" players who wanted to test their skill, often with blatantly unfair setups. So while yeah, some things are a product of the time, like the missions being same-ish because there's stuff the engine can't handle, I think a lot of the bullshit was absolutely part of the design document.
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May 6, 2023 21:28
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Where? Oh, there. Cythereal posted:Play it larger, and in such a remake you might have something like the Alliance expedition rallying and uniting a coalition of the races attacked and victimized by the Horde. The draenei most obviously, and as I discovered in last week's lore post, the Alliance in Chronicles was joined by a few arakkoa who served the Light. Expand on that, involve the draenei more heavily, add some Gorian Empire remnants and you'd have yourself a party. I'll say it again if I haven't said it before: This is a really cool idea. Wait, where?
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May 6, 2023 21:31
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You are very likely expected to take out teal and steal their base. And this is an awful mission, and the deathknights make it even worse.
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May 6, 2023 22:06
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Man, they really retconned the hell out of that place for Burning Crusade. On another note, I think this mission shows something that has been the general problem throughout Warcraft 2 in general: The designers had a very limited pool of ideas, talent and time for their mission design. I guess that's to be expected when looking at games from this era but somehow it still feels lazy, especially considering how often this game still turns up on best-of-strategy-game lists from neckbeards.
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May 6, 2023 22:43
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The easiest way to do that mission is very unintuitive and also likely not intended. If you immediately go northwest and chop through the thin trees around that enclosed gold mine, you can build your base there and force all of the attack waves to come from one of two directions after meandering in the south center of the map for a while. Using your flying machine to distract the death knights for the whole mission also makes it much easier.
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May 6, 2023 22:48
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This mission I remember as a serious pain. The enemies would not let up and give me time to take them each out one at a time without cheating, as was my usual preference. Also, like Cythreal, I prefer to build my forces at the start rather than practice early aggression. I also never caught on to the flying machine distraction trick. I do like how they expect you to destroy the Runestones in the Shadowmoon base and they've already been heavily damaged for you. Nice fanfic. I feel bad for Isidora, and I smiled a bit as well.
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May 6, 2023 22:52
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Mr.Misfit posted:Man, they really retconned the hell out of that place for Burning Crusade. As I said, my guess is that when they designed Burning Crusade, they weren't thinking about this mission being an attack on the Black Temple. Geographically it matches up decently well for an attack on the Hand of Gul'dan or what is now the Shadowmoon Village if you posit that Wildhammer Stronghold is supposed to be the Alliance base from this mission like Honor Hold is from mission 4 and Allerian Stronghold is from mission 5. It was Chronicles, years later, that stated that this was an attack on the Black Temple, and I suspect that this was not something that had always been intended. life_source posted:I'll say it again if I haven't said it before: This is a really cool idea. While I, like most WoW players, grew to like the draenei and how Blizzard filled in Draenor, there's no getting around the fact that Beyond the Dark Portal was made long before the draenei were conceived, and how it's weird that the Horde here has such an abundance of trolls and goblins. The real weirdness in the Alliance campaign on Draenor, which I can't quite call a retcon because it was never specifically contradicted, is yet to come.
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May 7, 2023 00:58
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Mr.Misfit posted:Man, they really retconned the hell out of that place for Burning Crusade. You have to remember that the mission scripting ability for WC2 was very limited. Starcraft's big thing was how versatile its triggers were, which allowed for some truly amazing custom maps, as well as a lot more flexibility for the game devs when they were designing missions. WC3 took this to another level entirely, with the ability to now create custom units and buildings, and modify the base attributes of units, something that wasn't really possible in Starcraft. And when you look at how the expansion didn't add any new units, it's hard for the game to really have too many new ideas. Comparable RTS games at the time also had a really limited selection of things that could be done; Red Alert didn't have a whole lot of options either at this point.
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May 7, 2023 01:02
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PurpleXVI posted:Also with regards to your issues with BtDP "not being the game's fault," I kind of think that they absolutely are. In my memory most RTS expansions from this era very much catered to the "elite" players who wanted to test their skill, often with blatantly unfair setups. So while yeah, some things are a product of the time, like the missions being same-ish because there's stuff the engine can't handle, I think a lot of the bullshit was absolutely part of the design document.
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May 7, 2023 03:36
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Dirk the Average posted:You have to remember that the mission scripting ability for WC2 was very limited. Starcraft's big thing was how versatile its triggers were, which allowed for some truly amazing custom maps, as well as a lot more flexibility for the game devs when they were designing missions. WC3 took this to another level entirely, with the ability to now create custom units and buildings, and modify the base attributes of units, something that wasn't really possible in Starcraft. Didn't red alert have missions against giant ant armies, new units, and goofy rear end ini edited unit missions that made your subs shoot nukes and poo poo? That feels like a very poor comparison.
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May 7, 2023 04:06
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Red Alert had a lot more sophistication in map design, scripting, player-facing customization through text files and the like compared to warcraft 2, yes. However, it only had one for multiplayer maps with no scripting.
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May 7, 2023 05:41
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