|
Maybe I just have recency bias but I always took the fact that the same guy could be near-elite or better on both sides of the ball to be a diminishing factor in basically everyones' accomplishments from the early eras. Babe Ruth was generationally amazing relative to a bunch of farmboys who showed a knack for the game of baseball. Bonds was generationally amazing relative to a league full of supermen that had been conditioned since early childhood to develop their baseball skills to levels that could not have been imagined in Ruth's day. I know its reductive but I always assumed that if a modern-day Danny Valencia or Delmon Young or something went back to that era they'd also be amongst history's greatest players, let alone someone like Greinke. The reason there's no one like the Babe left in the game has very little to do with the Babe and very lots to do with the game. I've never been able to draw a line straight from being an elite 1920s two-way player to being the best of all time, the line for me takes a much shorter path to get to "Baseball must have been a lot easier back then" considering the unlikelihood of any modern man having even the time to hone both skillsets up to the major league level. TL;DR for me the fact that Ruth was a great pitcher diminishes his accomplishments somehow because I am dumb. Dr. Tommy John fucked around with this message at 15:03 on May 6, 2014 |
#
?
May 6, 2014 14:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 23:35 |
|
|
Inside Outside posted:Ruth also put up the coolest season in baseball history in 1919 when he batted .322/.456/.657 with 29 home runs over 543 plate appearances while pitching to a 2.97 ERA. He led the majors in OPB, SLG, OPS+, home runs, among other things, while pitching 133.1 innings. Wait the coolest anecdote from this season was that he hit more home runs than any other TEAM.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
Ted Williams had a better career K/9 than Ruth.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:11
|
|
|
Tharizdun posted:EDIT EDIT: Outside of the guys who were killed, was Williams the player most hosed by World War 2? I mean if you give him his six year average from 1940-42 and 46-48, the three years before and after his service (a slash line of 359/497/646 by the way), and he has way over 3000 hits and 600 dingers. Sure it's a big assumption, but the guy had just hit his prime and then got put on a shelf for three years. Or was the talent in MLB already too depleted because of the war in 41, 42 and 46 to really take those numbers with anything but a huge grain of salt?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:14
|
|
|
howe_sam posted:Or was the talent in MLB already too depleted because of the war in 41, 42 and 46 to really take those numbers with anything but a huge grain of salt? This is a consideration but so is the fact that Babe Ruth only played against white guys so you know, figure out where your personal boundaries lay and you'll find the answer
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:16
|
|
|
Hitler ruined baseball
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:19
|
|
|
Harlock posted:Here's some water cooler flame the fire talk. Let the sideshow begin! This should be an interesting week.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:21
|
|
|
HAL9100 posted:Maybe I just have recency bias but I always took the fact that the same guy could be near-elite or better on both sides of the ball to be a diminishing factor in basically everyones' accomplishments from the early eras. Babe Ruth was generationally amazing relative to a bunch of farmboys who showed a knack for the game of baseball. Bonds was generationally amazing relative to a league full of supermen that had been conditioned since early childhood to develop their baseball skills to levels that could not have been imagined in Ruth's day. I know its reductive but I always assumed that if a modern-day Danny Valencia or Delmon Young or something went back to that era they'd also be amongst history's greatest players, let alone someone like Greinke. It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:25
|
|
|
Popete posted:Hitler ruined baseball The real crime against humanity.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:25
|
|
|
Isaac Newton? Pfeh. Dude didn't even invent computers. Mark Zuckerberg, now there's a real thinker.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:26
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms Won't they kind of be right? e: like I mean, when comparing him to the guys who are playing against cyborgs and genetically engineered super organisms. I am not trying to say that Ruth wasn't amazing, just that context is really the most important thing when comparing players.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:28
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms Well there isn't currently a league full of major league quality cyborg players that was created because MLB won't let cyborgs play.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
Groucho Marxist posted:Well there isn't currently a league full of major league quality cyborg players that was created because MLB won't let cyborgs play. That you know of...
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
Groucho Marxist posted:Well there isn't currently a league full of major league quality cyborg players that was created because MLB won't let cyborgs play. Well the segregation thing is a separate issue which isn't what HAL9000 was talking about.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:31
|
|
|
Groucho Marxist posted:Well there isn't currently a league full of major league quality cyborg players that was created because MLB won't let cyborgs play. We still have six years!
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:38
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms That was before baseball spread into Africa, India and China....
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:49
|
|
|
I would love to watch foreign leagues if they offered an MLB.TV type product, especially NPB.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:53
|
|
|
Groucho Marxist posted:Well there isn't currently a league full of major league quality cyborg players that was created because MLB won't let cyborgs play.  That's because it's not the 24th century yet
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:53
|
|
|
seventeen posted:
Robots ain't cyborgs
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 15:56
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms I can't wait to grumble about how Pulsing Mass Of Flesh That Fires Baseballs From Numerous Quivering Orifices is in the Hall but A-Rod isn't. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:06
|
|
|
HAL9100 posted:Won't they kind of be right? If Ruth had had the benefit of a lifetime superior competition, superior training, better technology, instruction, coaching, etc. that modern players do, he'd have been a whole lot better, as well. You can't play your alt-history game by leaving Ruth constant while everyone else gets better. He was a product of his times, as was everyone else. Ruth today would undoubtedly give Bonds a run for his money.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:07
|
|
|
Tender Bender posted:I can't wait to grumble about how Pulsing Mass Of Flesh That Fires Baseballs From Numerous Quivering Orifices is in the Hall but A-Rod isn't. Bartolo Colon isn't even that good, dude.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:25
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's going to be p sweet in like 100 years when people say Bonds wasn't very good bc he didn't have to play against cyborgs or genetically engineered super organisms I mean, is anyone saying Ruth is BAD? All I hear is 'yea it's kinda unfair to deem someone 'the best of all time' or whatever when there was an entire league designed to keep a certain race of people out of the league he played in.' Is there a place between 'maybe context changes the argument of who the best player ever' is' and 'Babe Ruth? What a fuckin scrub'?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:27
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Ruth today would undoubtedly give Bonds a run for his money. This is a statement that you should know you cannot make.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
HAL9100 posted:This is a statement that you should know you cannot make. Well, Bonds' knees are all hosed up. But then, Ruth has been dead for 65 years, so Bonds would probably still beat him.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:37
|
|
|
If you want to make the argument that Ruth could have been as good as Bonds with years of training, you also have to entertain the idea that Ruth's lack of self control would prevent him from reaching his potential. Also, Ted Williams and Babe Ruth would probably never make it to professional baseball in contemporary times because of the circumstances they grew up in. tadashi fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
I think his lack of self control is part of what makes him the best ever.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
In other news; Justin Upton struck out looking in the 9th with RISP. He was 0-4 with 4k. It was also the 3rd time in the last two weeks Upton struck out looking in the 9th with RISP. After the Braves lost their 7th game in a row i just wanted to remind everyone how terrible the Braves are at hitting anything but dingers. When this guy hits free agency after next season please pray your team doesn't sign him. Even his brother is more clutch. It's true, i have seen BJ have a few monster post seasons with the Rays.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
Babe Ruth isn't even a top 5 Yankee of all time! Why are you guys talking about him like he's one of the greatest players of all time?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:49
|
|
|
FairGame posted:Bartolo Colon isn't even that good, dude. 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:51
|
|
|
tadashi posted:Also, Ted Williams and Babe Ruth would probably never make it to professional baseball in contemporary times because of the circumstances they grew up in. Ted Williams would never make it because he had tiny baby arms.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
Justin Upton is still a good Baseballer, regardless of his bottom of the 9th RISP situations, just maybe not as good/great as his ceiling once was back in the day. I'd take him over BJ Upton a million billion times over.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 16:59
|
|
|
Babe Ruth sure was ugly though.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
HAL9100 posted:This is a statement that you should know you cannot make. It's far less ridiculous than claiming that Danny fuckin Valencia would be seen as one of the greatest of all time had he played in the 20s
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
Nate Silver wrote a really good article in Baseball Between the Numbers about Ruth and Bonds switching eras and had Bonds with 900-some home runs while Ruth hit only 550 or something.howe_sam posted:Outside of the guys who were killed, was Williams the player most hosed by World War 2? I mean if you give him his six year average from 1940-42 and 46-48, the three years before and after his service (a slash line of 359/497/646 by the way), and he has way over 3000 hits and 600 dingers. Sure it's a big assumption, but the guy had just hit his prime and then got put on a shelf for three years. Or was the talent in MLB already too depleted because of the war in 41, 42 and 46 to really take those numbers with anything but a huge grain of salt? Yeah, that was a big discussion in SABR a few years back. Give Williams the war years back (including Korea), he has 5 years in his prime, and that means roughly 175-200 home runs. That puts him right in Ruth's wheel house. On top of that, Williams still had better slash stats than Bonds over his career in about 2000 fewer plate appearances, which he would've gotten back from the war years. I sometimes hem and haw about Barry vs. Williams, given that Williams wasn't intentionally walked as much and Barry played much of his career in the greatest offensive period in history. Barry was definitely the best hitter I ever saw though and I'm sad I never fully appreciated him when he was here.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:It's far less ridiculous than claiming that Danny fuckin Valencia would be seen as one of the greatest of all time had he played in the 20s Danny Valencia is just my analogue for a fringe-average quad-A type with some modicum of power. These guys, day-in-day-out, see a quality of fastballs and breaking balls that literally just didn't exist in Ruth's time. Add in reliever specialization and normalize strikeout rates and whatnot and I really have to believe that, while the "Ruth + modern training > Historical Ruth" argument is 100% valid, that sticking any player who can hit well enough to not be literally unemployed in 2014 would trample that era like Wladimir Balentien. They'd strike out at rates like three times the league average or something but 'mistake crushers' are a dime a dozen today and we have plenty of empirical evidence that shows that a mistake at 80 something is a hell of a lot easier for a big leaguer to punish than a mistake at 95+. Ruth was really incomprehensibly good, I just think that actual time-travelling Ruth transplanted into today would probably be like.. Adam Dunn or something.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
I see the problem now. You mistakenly believe that pitchers in Ruth's era were throwing on average much slower than they really were.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
chilihead posted:In other news; Justin Upton struck out looking in the 9th with RISP. He was 0-4 with 4k. It was also the 3rd time in the last two weeks Upton struck out looking in the 9th with RISP. Ken Kendrick, is that you?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 18:31
|
|
|
The Born Approx. posted:I see the problem now. You mistakenly believe that pitchers in Ruth's era were throwing on average much slower than they really were. Really? Because the best pitcher of that era, Walter Johnson, was known for his blazing sidearmed fastball that was clocked at 91.36 MPH in a lab.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 18:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 23:35 |
|
|
If it's on Wikipedia then I'm convinced.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 18:58
|
|
