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Power Bottom posted:I'm very salty about the 5 man party limit. I personally prefer 5-man parties because of the formations I use, but at the same time it's very frustrating to me that I can no longer pick up an additional NPC for quests and such. I've always viewed extra companions that I don't take along the first time as an opportunity for something new on a second playthrough.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:35
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Vermain posted:Additionally, players will de facto have fewer per-day resources to spend in each encounter, making it easier to balance the rate of encounters around the assumption that players probably won't be doubling up as much. If the opportunity cost for bringing along a second Wizard isn't high enough, then you're probably just going to bring two Wizards to lock down the entire enemy party in each encounter, since (even without rest scumming) you have twice the number of per-day Wizard abilities to use. With 5 party members, it's harder to convincingly fit two Wizards or two Priests or whatever into a party. I think a party of 4 would have pushed this opportunity cost even higher and made party composition even more relevant, but I can understand them not wanting to go all the way down that road and I'm fine with 5 as a compromise. Yes, this is also true. From a balance perspective, five is probably better than six, though I'm glad we're not going down to four just because I don't want to be that sharply limited in how many story companions I have with me at any given time. rope kid posted:Eric is misinformed; we're already using the lore highlight feature from Tyranny. Hell yes
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Jan 27, 2017 15:38
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Zore posted:No one's openly talked about it but from some things that have been said it seems Avellone is pissy that a bunch of his content and ideas were cut in PoE and he just seems to be on a different wavelength from everyone there now. Think there's more to it than that - I heard Avellone was heading up a game that ended up getting axed along with his PoE stuff, and it sounds like it was part of larger internal politicking as well. Maybe his Kickstarter superstar status played a role in it too. It's weird to see this anti-Avellone backlash, though. For someone so pissy and bitter, he seems happy to retweet and promote Obsidian stuff like PoE2 and Apocalypse Now.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:41
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Personally I'm fine with 5 character by default design, but I would love to turn on an option that just says "screw encounter design--bring everyone at once!"
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Jan 27, 2017 15:42
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Rookersh posted:The biggest issue I have with 5 is companions, not gameplay. I the first time I played through, I dropped Aloth at the first opportunity. No problem with his character, I just never really liked wizards. I didn't speak to him, so I failed his quest when Brackenbury Sanitarium burnt down, never found out Iselmyr existed or that he was a member of the Leaden Key, and, after killing Thaos, he got the ending where he became grandmaster seemingly out of nowhere. I was very confused.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:44
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Vermain posted:I've always viewed extra companions that I don't take along the first time as an opportunity for something new on a second playthrough. Yeah, there is always that. I feel like more options is kinda expected for a bigger games especially if you got all kinds of extremes to play out from good to bad. Companions kinda have to 'match' that and that supports replaybility. Then again, out of some recent games like SR: Dragonfall and Hong Kong really made me appreciate the smaller party/less companions options too. Course the design is very different, the games are shorter and most guys are morally flexible because it's Shadowrun.. Still, it was done in a way that made me appreciate it. Also, since we're continuing from where we left of, I assume we're gonna keep our levels, which means we might be headed towards some high level stuff. Can understand if that also contributed to cutting party size down because trying to remember every ability, skill and spell from each character might be a bit painful especially if the list just keeps on growing longer and longer.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:50
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I demand 60 character parties
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Jan 27, 2017 15:51
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Its sad a jrpg approach (all characters just pop in for story/cutscenes) wouldn't work in something like this.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:53
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Lonkface posted:Also, since we're continuing from where we left of, I assume we're gonna keep our levels, which means we might be headed towards some high level stuff. We're apparently starting from level 1 again, which I presume is explained as being a consequence of Eothas rising from the grave and doing some kind of soul siphoning thing (like what you can see in the cutscene). This is also presumably why we're chasing after him, since he's damaged/taken our soul in some way.
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Jan 27, 2017 15:56
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Vermain posted:We're apparently starting from level 1 again, which I presume is explained as being a consequence of Eothas rising from the grave and doing some kind of soul siphoning thing (like what you can see in the cutscene). This is also presumably why we're chasing after him, since he's damaged/taken our soul in some way. So we're giving chase to a 500 foot deity-bound statue because he stole our XP? Hmmh.. well.. At least we get a boat.. right?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:04
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:He doesn't want to work with Obsidian again and has already said he won't work on PoE2. What? It was such a great, elegant delivery platform for his writing. What's his beef?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:05
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Lt. Danger posted:So glad of the 5 party members limit, such a sensible design choice. If you think about it, the IE games only ever really had 2-3 proper party members anyway. I like the setting well enough and the lore but the main plot of Poe1 is definitely the weakness for me. The reason it was a hit for me anyways is the gameplay is still strong. I enjoy the combat and how tactical it is and enjoy leveling and gearing up in it. If they can take that gameplay and add a story that is more engaging they'll have hit a home run with me. I imagine most people that really like Poe1 are in the same boat as I am. They enjoy the game primarily for the gameplay more than for the story. It's a bit of a weird situation to be in because most Obsidian games are usually great because of the story more than the gameplay. Alpha Protocol and Kotor 2 for example don't exactly have stellar gameplay systems (though they're fun enough) but they have good writing and fun stories. Not saying gameplay is necessarily a weakness of Obsidian's, but they've always been known for strong narratives. I'm pretty excited for this one primarily because they already had good gameplay figured out for Poe1 so I expect them to only build on that and I know Obsidian is capable of creating an even stronger story/setting. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 16:10
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bitmap posted:What? It was such a great, elegant delivery platform for his writing. What's his beef? I think at this point the best that anyone can say is that there were creative differences. Anything else is just speculation.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:10
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Now I wonder what transfers. If they boot you back to level 1 (  ), starting with a bunch of soulbound weapons or enchanted gear Is probably out too.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:21
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The brief bit about companions in the pitch makes it sounds like they might have more opinions and agency in the main plot which would be cool. One of my favorite bits of Mask of the Betrayer was a part where you basically get the option to just be completely hands off and let your party member have a long and intense conversation with an npc, which probably sounds silly but it worked out really well.Vermain posted:We're apparently starting from level 1 again Has this actually been confirmed?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:26
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Clever Spambot posted:Has this actually been confirmed? No, but I'd be really surprised if they let us start PoE2 with level 7 spells. It'd certainly be overwhelming for new players to have to pick that many levels' worth of spells and talents on character creation. Plus, I'd bet they're changing some of the underlying character-building and combat systems, so PoE1 levels probably won't translate easily to PoE2 anyway. It's not like Baldur's Gate, where the common backdrop of D&D rules meant that everything could definitely translate. The whole "Eothas breaks out of the ground and leaves you nearly dead while sucking the souls out of people" beginning is a good justification for weakening the Watcher back down to a low level, if nothing else. Good justification for letting you change your Watcher's class, too--you're weakened and you have to learn how to fight again, so why not learn to do it in a different way?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:30
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bitmap posted:What? It was such a great, elegant delivery platform for his writing. What's his beef? Even catching up on Twitter this morning is a good example: https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/824517992868229120 Rascyc fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 16:32
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Also, they've broken a mil on Fig and are likely to meet goal within the next hour or two.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:34
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Vermain posted:I think at this point the best that anyone can say is that there were creative differences. Anything else is just speculation. Rascyc posted:His tweets and interviews are always about disagreements with upper management. Dang. I mean, I loved pillars to death regardless but those labyrinthine dialogue trees with durance and GM were really something. Like the more esoteric writing in Morrowind it felt like a really well integrated glimpse into a more sophisticated literary vision for the setting.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:38
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I just backed this at the 'Create an Item' level because I had what I think is a pretty good idea (and also I'm an idiot), I note that the description does say "Create a piece of equipment that will be used by players all over the world. Work with the Pillars II team to decide the lore, appearance, and type of item that will go into the game (some restrictions apply)" but it doesn't list anywhere what those restrictions are / might be I imagine stuff like word-count / name / etc will be restricted, but I wonder if item type will have restrictions; my idea hinges on a particular kind of equipment and I don't want to find out after the fact that I'm stuck choosing between a buckler and a ring because every other cool thing was taken.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:42
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Is the  Helm finally going to be a reality?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:47
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Grim posted:I just backed this at the 'Create an Item' level because I had what I think is a pretty good idea (and also I'm an idiot), I note that the description does say "Create a piece of equipment that will be used by players all over the world. Work with the Pillars II team to decide the lore, appearance, and type of item that will go into the game (some restrictions apply)" but it doesn't list anywhere what those restrictions are / might be please make us another disappointer
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Jan 27, 2017 16:48
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Durance was great, all that ranting and raving worked for a crazy hobo priest. Grieving Mother I found really bad and annoying though, her writting actually grated me. Torment was a really good fit for that kind of writting imo but it won't work everywhere.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:48
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So, I've been thinking about what save I want to use for Pillars 2. I always enjoy clerics/priests in fantasy settings, but Pillars kind of threw that feeling for a loop. Is there any argument to made for why the Watcher would serve the gods? Can you reconcile not rejecting animancy and still seeing a place for the gods?rope kid posted:Eric is misinformed; we're already using the lore highlight feature from Tyranny. That's good to hear, thank you for the clarification, I appreciate it.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:54
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Lt. Danger posted:1) Action economy - 6 party members can be doing 6 different things at any one moment. This is particularly important when the challenge in most tactical combat games is in managing/defending against the actions of more numerous weaker enemies - the more party members you have, the more actions you have to counter what the enemy is doing, the less pressure on the player, the easier the game. I get all that, I just don't think you're gaining much 'balancability' out of lowering to 5, but you're losing more flexibility in encounter design because now you have to assume everyone has only 1 tank. Part of the fun about IE games was you had big fights against lots of stuff and smaller fights against a few guys. 6 also gave you an opportunity to really mix up the classes you bring - if PoE is limited to 5 then in my current playthrough I ditch Sagani or Kana because they're the least vital and I already have me/eder/aloth/durance/X - that sucks. I'm still not seeing a meaningful way that balance is suddenly improved and better because we're at 5 instead of 6 - and I'm talking about specific examples. What fight in PoE is suddenly better and more easily balanced because it has 5 dudes now? Lord Raedric has 1 less mage and 1 less frontliner or something? Or 3 less frontliners because we have to assume you have 1 tank instead of a 2nd tank or offtank? oswald ownenstein fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 16:55
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I'm surprised how many people care so strongly about the party size change. It really doesn't seem very limiting to me at all. It's not like there's any one thing that your party must have to succeed. Literally any combination of characters can finish PoE, and I'll be shocked if the same isn't true of Deadfire. Having one less character to micromanage (and it's not like most people actually needed or wanted to actively manage all six for anything but the hardest fights) seems like an overall positive to me, anyway. rope kid posted:Eric is misinformed; we're already using the lore highlight feature from Tyranny. Excellent news, thanks for the clarification  oswald ownenstein posted:I get all that, I just don't think you're gaining much 'balancability' out of lowering to 5, but you're losing more flexibility in encounter design because now you have to assume everyone has only 1 tank. I don't see how this is the case. Nothing in PoE that can be done with six characters can't also be done with five. And nothing's stopping you from having two tanks in a five-person party. Or three tanks. Or five! Mr. Baps fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 16:56
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I wonder if your background will have any real impact on this game? I'm guessing not a lot, but you can pick to be from Deadfire and even be part of the Aristocracy (current or former) which is kinda neat. I just started a new playthrough with that background just to import for any potential goodies.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:58
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Avalerion posted:Durance was great, all that ranting and raving worked for a crazy hobo priest. Grieving Mother I found really bad and annoying though, her writting actually grated me. Durance's voice actor delivered the role too imho. Anyone know who was behind that voice-work?
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Jan 27, 2017 16:58
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Avalerion posted:Durance was great, all that ranting and raving worked for a crazy hobo priest. Grieving Mother I found really bad and annoying though, her writting actually grated me. no argument on the torment point but come on dude the Grieving Mother story was metal as hell and right up to the bitter end not one other character in the party even knew she was there. It was brilliant.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:58
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Enigmatic Cakelord posted:So, I've been thinking about what save I want to use for Pillars 2. I always enjoy clerics/priests in fantasy settings, but Pillars kind of threw that feeling for a loop. Is there any argument to made for why the Watcher would serve the gods? Can you reconcile not rejecting animancy and still seeing a place for the gods? The gods might not be true gods but they're still immensely more powerful than mortals and are programmed to try to fulfill their portfolios. So if you believe in what a god stands for it could still make sense to follow them even knowing the truth about them.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:59
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bitmap posted:no argument on the torment point but come on dude the Grieving Mother story was metal as hell and right up to the bitter end not one other character in the party even knew she was there. It was brilliant. That just felt lazy, like they wanted to have a character but didn't want to bother having to write any party interactions.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:59
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oswald ownenstein posted:I get all that, I just don't think you're gaining much 'balancability' out of lowering to 5, but you're losing more flexibility in encounter design because now you have to assume everyone has only 1 tank. Why do you have to assume that? I'm still going to bring two tanks in a five person party because there's very few bottlenecks, even in PoE1, that can be stopped up by a single frontliner. Two tanks still leaves you with three long-ranged characters that you can customize to your heart's content.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:01
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Avalerion posted:Now I wonder what transfers. If they boot you back to level 1 ( How can you have soulbound weapons if you have no soul!?
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Jan 27, 2017 17:11
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I think a major opposition to five-member parties comes from this idea that you absolutely must have at least one tank and one DPS dealer and one healer, which is a concept deeply ingrained in RPGs since D&D. But PoE's class system is far more flexible in this regard. There's nothing preventing you from making your casters more sturdy or speccing your Fighters for offence. My last run didn't have a dedicated tank because I felt it was much easier to divide the damage across all six members. Having five characters doesn't really inhibit your ability to make off-beat builds, it just cuts down on the micromanagement.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:12
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I think even if we assume two tanks, or one tank and one pretty tanky melee who can help stop up a bottleneck if necessary, you still have some pretty good flexibility in what else you have. The other "roles" are a lot more negotiable. You'd want someone capable of crowd control--Wizard, Druid, and Cipher are all good at that, assuming the classes don't change too drastically for PoE2--and someone who can heal and protect from status effects--Paladin, Priest, to a lesser extent Druid, or just use scrolls if you're into that--and the thing is, all of those classes I listed are good at other things, too. Wizard, Druid, and Cipher are both crowd control and good damage (melee or ranged), Paladin brings healing and protection and is also a good tank, Priests bring strong debuffs and some crowd control with their healing and protection, etc. You're not required to have ranged damage, though it's nice to prevent overcrowding; you're not required to have melee damage outside of your tank(s) if you don't want to; and even on top of the versatility already mentioned, there'll be multiclassing. From a gameplay perspective, five characters instead of six isn't a very big deal. I'm mostly sad that I won't get to bring as many story companions with me at any given time.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:13
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Vermain posted:Why do you have to assume that? I'm still going to bring two tanks in a five person party because there's very few bottlenecks, even in PoE1, that can be stopped up by a single frontliner. Two tanks still leaves you with three long-ranged characters that you can customize to your heart's content.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:13
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Vermain posted:Why do you have to assume that? I'm still going to bring two tanks in a five person party because there's very few bottlenecks, even in PoE1, that can be stopped up by a single frontliner. Two tanks still leaves you with three long-ranged characters that you can customize to your heart's content. Walrus Pete posted:I'm surprised how many people care so strongly about the party size change. It really doesn't seem very limiting to me at all. It's not like there's any one thing that your party must have to succeed. Literally any combination of characters can finish PoE, and I'll be shocked if the same isn't true of Deadfire. Having one less character to micromanage (and it's not like most people actually needed or wanted to actively manage all six for anything but the hardest fights) seems like an overall positive to me, anyway. Balancing has to be done on what most players are going to run - and most players are probably going to run some kind of 1 tank 1 heal 1 dps (melee or otherwise) 1 mage 1 flex - where at least some large percentage of the time that flex is not another tank and is instead something different from their other members. Based on this, you're going to make your encounters around the assumption that you have one tank - so either you drop the number of enemies, or you give the tank a ridiculous amount of engagement ability - in any case that hassle outweighs the hassle of designing for 6. edit: or you expect people to run 2 tanks (or 1 tank 1 offtank) in a 5 person party which is even shittier oswald ownenstein fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 17:14
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rope kid posted:It's worth noting that our push/pull mechanics are much more reliable in Deadfire. A single tank squatting in front of the rest of the party can be knocked out of formation if an enemy has a push/pull ability, regardless of what's in front of or behind them. Neat. And from the player's perspective, that means that you can more reliably use the push/pull abilities to control enemy crowds, which further reduces the reliance on having a dedicated tank--there are other (and more reliable) ways to make sure enemies don't get to your backliners.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:15
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rope kid posted:It's worth noting that our push/pull mechanics are much more reliable in Deadfire. A single tank squatting in front of the rest of the party can be knocked out of formation if an enemy has a push/pull ability, regardless of what's in front of or behind them. Great to hear. This should help to make combat encounters more dynamic. oswald ownenstein posted:Balancing has to be done on what most players are going to run - and most players are probably going to run some kind of 1 tank 1 heal 1 dps (melee or otherwise) 1 mage 1 flex - where at least some large percentage of the time that flex is not another tank and is instead something different from their other members. How do you know that this is what most players are going to run? Vermain fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 17:16
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The sixth character is Itumaak.
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