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Attorney at Funk posted:I'm beginning to think that Exalted fans do not actually like Exalted.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:18
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Attorney at Funk posted:I'm beginning to think that Exalted fans do not actually like Exalted. I actually do like Exalted a lot. Do not think my hyperbole is legitimate. However, at the same time, there are parts of it where I go 'hey what the gently caress.', and that's a valid thing to do for any game you like or any book you read or any media you consume, regardless of how much you like it as a whole. I think if you're so desperately trying to stop 2E playerbase's ideas of how Dragonblooded are expendable Orks to the point you come up with this 'Progenative Essence' thing, you don't then turn around and go 'but also Dragonblooded are illegitimate Exalted who do not earn their Exaltations', because that, by it's very nature, indicates that they are, in fact, lesser and expendable then others, because they aren't 'really' heroes.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:21
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See, I think the question of 'what is inherited heroism' is a cool one. The Realm tries to produce heroes of its society, aristocrats who are incredibly capable and powerful and who uphold the mores of the Realms. The whole focus on schooling and upbringing and career are about that process, taking raw talent (the Exaltation) and trying to turn it into a particular resource for the Empire. The Exaltation is not earned, but the refinement of the Exaltation is something an individual pursues. It gets even better when you realize the Realm can be the antagonist of DB games too, because it wants to turn a character's biological inheritance into political and military power, not for their sake, but for the Dynasty's. Edit: also it's ironic that the thread argument has swung from 'Solars must be lottery winners a la Spider-Man' to 'if Dragon-Blooded inherit their power, they're faceless mooks' - I think we now have a complete spectrum on the matter of Exaltations and how they occur. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 19:23
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Stallion Cabana posted:I actually do like Exalted a lot. Do not think my hyperbole is legitimate.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:26
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Hell, I love Exalted. I just hate every last one of its basic premises. Aside from that,
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Aug 15, 2018 19:26
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Nessus posted:I haven't gotten into these backers books because I am not giving them money for Exalted unless they start previewing Lunars or Abyssals, but I thought the "Progenitive Essence" thing was mostly "no, Kyle, you can't Genghis Khan your way into a mathematically reliable supporting allied army in twenty years." Like you could have as many kids as you wanted but the dragon energy had to rebuild and was possibly more important than being a pure-bred. It is that. It's one of those things that feels entirely like it was outlined as a 'we have to come up with an in universe reason why all the 2E forum people saying that you should just get 20 Dragonblooded and forcibly breed them in your time manse until you have an infinite army of Breeding 5 Dragonblooded instead of just ignoring those idiots'. EDIT: Also I don't have problems with DBs inheriting their power. I have problems with both saying they inherit their power and they are also unworthy, the idea that the actual Dragonblooded has no outcome on her Exaltation is a strange one to me because it feels really weird. The Dragonblooded of the Scarlet Empire have unearned privileged and power because they're the heads of a colonial empire. You don't really have to go 'all Dragonblooded are Unworthy' to get that, because Outcastes don't carry, or shouldn't carry, the burden of having to make reparations for whatever the Scarlet Empire is doing. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 19:29
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Progenerative Essence also creates a situation where you can have Realm sexual mores around fidelity that are similar to actual historical cultures, while still being Exalted fantasy. Plus, it creates a situation where sibling rivalry is even more intense and vicious! Perfect for the Realm. And it's vaguely similar to Chinese traditional beliefs about sexual energy. All in all I think it's a solid addition to the fiction which also undermines the 'become a baby factory for your country!' aspect of DB society - while not undermining the obsession with producing strong offspring. Also, how does one 'earn' heredity? Not even speaking of moral desert, what can one do to deserve one's family? I dont think it's even in the space of deserving and undeserving, it's just a quality of some people that they have elemental powers burning in them. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 19:35
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You actually don't have to have Dragon-Blooded at all, whatsoever. You can just have a totally nonmagical colonial empire that exploits a similarly nonmagical periphery. However, if you're going to invent magical beings to act as metaphorical stand-ins for these historical concepts it would be pretty stupid to populate said empire with a ruling caste who all earned their power by studying really hard.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:36
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Ferrinus posted:You actually don't have to have Dragon-Blooded at all, whatsoever. You can just have a totally nonmagical colonial empire that exploits a similarly nonmagical periphery. However, if you're going to invent magical beings to act as metaphorical stand-ins for these historical concepts it would be pretty stupid to populate said empire with a ruling caste who all earned their power by studying really hard.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:38
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If only there was some way to nuance these things. Such a way to say like 'well this lady is worthy, because she Exalted and then did good things, and worked hard to get her Exaltation; she has privilege but is using it in a good way.' while also sometimes going 'this person isn't worthy, because they exalted on the back of their blood and have used that power and privilege to enhance their own position and treat the world like a play thing.' Something like 'This guy is a freed slave who frees other slaves' versus 'this guy is a serial killing rapist'. some sort of nuance. Or deeper thought then just branding an entire splat as 'unworthy'. But nope, no such thing.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:45
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Nessus posted:I haven't gotten into these backers books because I am not giving them money for Exalted unless they start previewing Lunars or Abyssals, They previewed a bunch of Lunar Charms on the blog a few weeks ago, if you didn't see.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:46
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Why does having inherited privilege make you unworthy?
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Aug 15, 2018 19:47
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Rand Brittain posted:Why does having inherited privilege make you unworthy? it doesn't? That's exactly what I'm saying.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:48
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Separate the concept of "Unearned" from "Unworthy". Terrestrial Exaltation is unearned by its very nature. Even if you have to be heroic to actually exalt, you only got that chance through your bloodline. Worthiness is determined after the fact, and is the same for all Exalted. For good or ill, earned or unearned, you have extraordinary power that puts you at the top of society. In a perfectly just world, someone else - or possibly nobody - would have this power instead, but you don't live in that world. Knowing all of this, what do you do with it? Terrestrials don't earn their power, but nothing forces them to be unworthy of it. Dynastic culture makes perpetuating the inequality of the world and all its injustices very attractive, however, so Terrestrials almost certainly have a higher proportion of unworthy Exalts than other splats do, but that's nothing to do with the nature of the Exaltation itself.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:51
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Kaza42 posted:Separate the concept of "Unearned" from "Unworthy". Terrestrial Exaltation is unearned by its very nature. Even if you have to be heroic to actually exalt, you only got that chance through your bloodline. Worthiness is determined after the fact, and is the same for all Exalted. For good or ill, earned or unearned, you have extraordinary power that puts you at the top of society. In a perfectly just world, someone else - or possibly nobody - would have this power instead, but you don't live in that world. Knowing all of this, what do you do with it? That is basically exactly what i am saying, yes. To put DBs as MORE 'Unearned' or 'Unworthy' is what I find as being unpalatable and unreasonable.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:53
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Rand Brittain posted:Why does having inherited privilege make you unworthy? I imagine similar criticisms could be leveled towards the Sidereal Exaltation, which at last writing was preordained in the loom of fate albeit with significant inevitable downtime, or the Abyssal Exaltation, which is determined by a non-democratic authority with a significant agenda who is also an evil ghost.
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Aug 15, 2018 19:55
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People need to purge the word "deserve" from their brains, both in the context of Exalted and in the context of actually-existing human society. No one gets what they deserve; no one deserves what they get. Things don't magically become tolerable or justified if whoever they're happening to "deserves" them. Exaltation isn't about deserving-ness. You should talk about an Exaltation in terms of what it reflects, or what it's an outgrowth of, or what it represents. A Solar Exaltation is a reflection of/outgrowth of/elaboration on someone's prowess and heroic spirit. A Sidereal Exaltation represents someone's destiny and obligation. A Dragon-Blooded exaltation is a reflection of someone's birth and ancestry. If you're the greatest hero of your time, you're chosen by the sun. If you're of good birth, you get chosen by the dragons. No one "deserves" to be born into any particular circumstances, but no one "deserves" to be the greatest hero, either. These things just happen, and exaltation magnifies their import for dramatic effect. People mistakenly draw moral imperatives from this state of affairs, but the fact of the matter is that even if Jeff Bezos were 3.3 million times as smart and productive as the average Amazon worker, we would still have to kill him. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 19:57
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The criteria for Dragonblooded Exaltation is one that is simultaneously more and less restrictive than Solars, in that they require the right Bloodline to Exalt, but also must undergo something lay sufficiently traumatic or emotional to activate it. Peleps Deled Exalted when he kept on trying and failing to master a martial arts kata, Roseblack when she was attacked by a mountain lion, Ragara Baghwei when he was told to either fix his patient or die alongside her, or Cathak Drogoth when his filthy peasant schoolteacher tried to flog him for being an rear end in a top hat. In other words there’s at least no situation where a Dragonblood has Exalted without first encountering a moment of adversity, frustration, passion, etc. Experiencing this hardly means they’ve earned their power, plenty of normal people go through poo poo without getting superpowers, but at the very least it does prove that their upbringing was sufficiently challenging enough to make this sort of thing possible. Given that canon Solars in previous editions included people like noted serial murderer Havesh the Vanisher, the argument that Solar power is purer or more righteous because it is earned isn’t justifiable because it still isn’t necessarily deserved. Presumably, Sol picks based on potential more than anything else, as Havesh eventually realized it’s society and not his victims that he’s truly angry at, but that’s not a guarantee and does nothing for his various victims during his career as a Solar. Dragonblooded Exaltation actually seems to work a lot like Snapping in Mistborn or the manifestation of Dragonmarks in Eberron, where sufficient stress is a vital element in awakening hereditary abilities. Fortunately the Realm is more than happy to provide traumatic childhoods and dysfunctional families with frightening gusto.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:03
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Ferrinus posted:People need to purge the word "deserve" from their brains, both in the context of Exalted and in the context of actually-existing human society. No one gets what they deserve; no one deserves what they get. Things don't magically become tolerable or justified if whoever they're happening to "deserves" them. I was writing a post arguing pretty much exactly this. It's myth/legend vs. fairy tale, I guess, although even fairy tales have their own elements of random chance. Why is Paul Bunyan so huge? Doesn't really matter, but the story is about how uses his abilities to make life better and more interesting, and his strength and fortitude represents that of American frontiersmen. Of course, real life American frontiersmen weren't really admirable, but that's why we understand Paul Bunyan as a story.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:04
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Ferrinus posted:People need to purge the word "deserve" from their brains, both in the context of Exalted and in the context of actually-existing human society. No one gets what they deserve; no one deserves what they get. Things don't magically become tolerable or justified if whoever they're happening to "deserves" them. But what my entire social system and prevailing ideology presupposes is:
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Aug 15, 2018 20:17
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"How could I be allowed to enjoy the game if the rule book won't assure me that my character The rule book can't take your fun away from you. Play the game and enjoy it, or don't.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:52
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Attorney at Funk posted:I'm beginning to think that Exalted fans do not actually like Exalted. The Bull of the North did nothing wrong.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:52
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What you need to do is what my characters do: acknowledge that your choosing is pretty arbitrary all things considered, but not really care because 'oh my god I can do so much poo poo with these superpowers ahahahaha'
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Aug 15, 2018 21:16
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Schwarzwald posted:"How could I be allowed to enjoy the game if the rule book won't assure me that my character my appreciation isn't hampered at all, and it has nothing to do with 'fundamental worthiness'. It is that for a game that likes to pretend to be shades of Grey, declaring literally every single Dragonblooded as Unworthy, no matter what their relationship to the Scarlet Empire, their actions, or their circumstances leading to Exaltation, is an incredibly, incredibly black and white response that misses the huge portion of Dragonblooded- the Sidebar says 8,000 to 15,000, but taking Lookshy into account it's probably 'only' 1/5th instead of 1/3rd or something-, that have nothing to do with the colonial power. I am not arguing that the Dragonblooded who casually participate in the exploitation and brutality of other nations are naturally worthy, but saying that every DB is unworthy blanketly is basically starting down the exact same path of Dragonblooded being pointless that ended in late 2E with Solars exalting while killing an entire Wyld Hunt by themselves and comparing DB Kill Counts in the Usurpation in the thousands. To be so basic and black and white in a game that pretends to be more willing to get into shades of grey isn't something that makes me angry or upset, really, it's just something that isn't very interesting, and casually ignores an entire swath of an entire splat to focus entirely on one aspect and paint them all by the same brush is exactly the thing that other places in Exalted point out as being a bad thing.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:20
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Stallion Cabana posted:my appreciation isn't hampered at all, and it has nothing to do with 'fundamental worthiness'. Oh, really? Well, go on, maybe your- quote:It is that for a game that likes to pretend to be shades of Grey, declaring literally every single Dragonblooded as Unworthy, 
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Aug 15, 2018 21:34
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, really? Well, go on, maybe your- do you understand the difference between 'fundamentally worthy' and 'your actions can never make you worthy'? To clarify; one of these is something that Exalted makes sense of; that you can't be 'worthy' of an Exaltation because it's power is so much more then you can possibly deserve without it. This should apply to *every* splat, and be a reasonable story beat for ANY splat, not just Dragonblooded. It doesn't have to be, but it can be. The other is specifically singling out a specific type of Exalted, which has already had in previous Editions an undercurrent of 'these aren't real Exalts', and saying 'No matter what you do, no matter who you are, no matter what happens in life, you will never be worthy of what you have gotten.' and implying that's fine because a maybe 2/3rds majority (real specific numbers are dumb but whatever) are currently engaged in Colonial practices, so they've stained and made every single other one of their same type of Exaltation unable to ever be worthy for their Exaltation regardless of their actions. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 21:40
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Stallion Cabana posted:my appreciation isn't hampered at all, and it has nothing to do with 'fundamental worthiness'. It is that for a game that likes to pretend to be shades of Grey, declaring literally every single Dragonblooded as Unworthy, no matter what their relationship to the Scarlet Empire, their actions, or their circumstances leading to Exaltation, is an incredibly, incredibly black and white response that misses the huge portion of Dragonblooded- the Sidebar says 8,000 to 15,000, but taking Lookshy into account it's probably 'only' 1/5th instead of 1/3rd or something-, that have nothing to do with the colonial power. I am not arguing that the Dragonblooded who casually participate in the exploitation and brutality of other nations are naturally worthy, but saying that every DB is unworthy blanketly is basically starting down the exact same path of Dragonblooded being pointless that ended in late 2E with Solars exalting while killing an entire Wyld Hunt by themselves and comparing DB Kill Counts in the Usurpation in the thousands. It's you. You are the one who is being basic and black and white. Nothing anywhere paints the Dragon-Blooded as less "worthy" than other Exalted because that's nearly an impossible thing to define.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:45
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Stallion Cabana posted:do you understand the difference between 'fundamentally worthy' and 'your actions can never make you worthy'? Dragon-Blooded are exalted by their ancestry, not their deeds or personal merits. I'm not really clear what "worthy" is supposed to have to do with it.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:45
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Cabana, I'm confused. How are you getting from this:Rand Brittain posted:There's no "worthiness" involved in the process. To this: Stallion Cabana posted:declaring literally every single Dragonblooded as Unworthy ? Especially when you say you agree with Kaza42 about the distinction between unearned and unworthy? I'm just not seeing who you think is saying DBs are all inherently unworthy and can never be anything but.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:48
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Zarick posted:It's you. You are the one who is being basic and black and white. Nothing anywhere paints the Dragon-Blooded as less "worthy" than other Exalted because that's nearly an impossible thing to define. Stephenls posted:In fact, Dynastic kids do explicitly try to HeroQuest. It's just that in mainline Exalted, this is explicitly something that doesn't work, except to the extent that some of the bullshit hazing and stupid dares and superstitious rituals they get up to in an effort to Exalt occasionally produce the sort of moments of stress that do tend to accompany DB Exaltation, which is enough to fuel the persistent rumors that they work and keep the kids doing them. Stephenls posted:It's not so much that it's an inborn spiritual failing as it is that having their Exaltation be unearned dovetails nicely with their place in the setting. There is a step here where it's talking about unearned privileged as if it's specifically ONLY for Dragonblooded. That doesn't make any sense when you're talking about Exalted, a game where people are invested with massive amounts of power for being heroic and the game then goes 'okay, and what do you do with it'
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Aug 15, 2018 21:48
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Exaltation is also arguably unearned for Sidereals, who are destined to exalt from birth. However, Solars and Lunars both earn their exaltations. Of course, the word "earn" has a lot of ideological baggage. You could avoid it entirely and say that a Dragon-Blooded's exaltation is a reflection of their birth, while a Lunar's exaltation is a reflection of their deeds and character.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:56
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Describing Exaltation as 'Unearned' specifically for the two splats that also have the most Baggage as being 'bad', between DBs not being 'real' Exalts and Sidereals being 'those guys who get owned by Infernals' is specifically what I'm discussing here and why I respond to it; part of 3E is supposed to be rehabilitating or removing those bad ideas from 2E where DBs slowly became faceless people for you to kill by the dozens to show how badass you are, or the like, and getting into the specifics of how DBs don't 'earn' their Exaltation, but focusing entirely on just DBs not earning it and acting as if it's special to them because of the Scarlet Empire (When there are other DBs and there should be an argument that it's a valid story for EVERY Exalt that they didn't 'earn' their power) feels like it's starting to hew back into the place where you get the game writing about how 'DBs are lesser then Mortals to the Gods of Yu-Shan, because at least a Mortal can become a Solar' or asking if a DB can Exalt as a Solar to become a 'true' exalt. Earn DOES have baggage, and it's dangerous baggage, but using Reflection instead and still going 'a DB exalts as a Reflection of being born while a Lunar Exalts because of the Reflection of their character' is still implicitly noting that the DBs are Exalting but in a way that doesn't make them 'true' exalts or that they're being given something that they, specifically, did not earn, while everyone else either implicitly 'earned' it, or can work to 'earn' it in a way that a DB is not allowed to do.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:02
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I'd say that this is what drove me out of Exalted but in truth this kind of daft argument is exactly how and why I got in to Exalted in the first place
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Aug 15, 2018 22:06
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Ferrinus posted:Exaltation is also arguably unearned for Sidereals, who are destined to exalt from birth. However, Solars and Lunars both earn their exaltations. The Loom of Fate presupposes that individuals are their fates, so in that sense Sidereals are the only Exalts that truly deserve their exaltations. edit: We also know for a certainty that 100% of Sidereals earn their exaltations, simply because their fates are written to guarantee that they will perform the necessary achievments and attain the correct temperaments and bearings. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 22:06
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Stallion Cabana posted:Earn DOES have baggage, and it's dangerous baggage, but using Reflection instead and still going 'a DB exalts as a Reflection of being born while a Lunar Exalts because of the Reflection of their character' is still implicitly noting that the DBs are Exalting but in a way that doesn't make them 'true' exalts or that they're being given something that they, specifically, did not earn, while everyone else either implicitly 'earned' it, or can work to 'earn' it in a way that a DB is not allowed to do. Yes, and also, it's 100% inescapably undeniably true. Dragon-Blooded exaltation is unearned by basically any definition of the word "earn", and even if you use more neutral and analytical language you always circle back to the fact that DB power flows from blood rather than deeds or virtue or whatever. There is no amount of apologism that can counteract this. There is no percentage of the total Dragon-Blooded population that donates to orphanages and had 5s in all their ability scores before they got the aspect/favored discount that can overcome this. A given Terrestrial's personality, and religion, and skills, and desires, and achivements all had absolutely nothing to do with that Terrestrial's access to the power of the dragons. Which is good, because Exalted is a piece of art and the various exalted are narrative devices. DBs represent different things than do Lunars and their access to power should come from a different place.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:15
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Ferrinus posted:Yes, and also, it's 100% inescapably undeniably true. Dragon-Blooded exaltation is unearned by basically any definition of the word "earn", and even if you use more neutral and analytical language you always circle back to the fact that DB power flows from blood rather than deeds or virtue or whatever. I can't tell if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm actually saying or not. I can retype the exact same post you just didn't understand with different words, or I can not and give up. A difficult decision. I'll say it anyway; Saying 'A DB can not Earn their power ever' while saying 'A Lunar has implicitly earned the power and can never not have earned it' is dumb and makes no sense. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 22:17
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Stallion Cabana posted:I can't tell if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm actually saying or not. I can retype the exact same post you just didn't understand with different words, or I can not and give up. A difficult decision. I'm not ignoring what you're saying. You're right that Dragon-Blooded don't earn (or "earn") their Exaltations, and you're wrong that that's in any way bad for the setting or a slippery slope leading to 2E. In fact it is good.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:20
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Stallion Cabana posted:Saying 'A DB can not Earn their power ever' while saying 'A Lunar has implicitly earned the power and can never not have earned it' is dumb and makes no sense. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it is an integral building block of the setting that has been true since the publishing of the first edition corebook. To dispute it is like complaining that, in Vampire: the Requiem, kindred must drink blood to survive.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:23
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not ignoring what you're saying. You're right that Dragon-Blooded don't earn (or "earn") their Exaltations, and you're wrong that that's in any way bad for the setting or a slippery slope leading to 2E. In fact it is good. It is in fact bad, actually, to continually imply that DB are uniquely unable to ever earn their Exaltation no matter what they do with their power, while every other Exalt never has to deal with this, and instead by exalting is instead told 'you have earned your power and you never should have to think that you didn't'. The Reborn Solar God-Kings being told by the book 'you earned this and you should never doubt this' while the Elemental Super Soldiers are told 'nothing you can ever do can make you earn this, you are a pretender' is not actually good. Like in case you somehow still don't understand this and aren't just literally arguing some kind of vaguely eugenics/racist/whatever bullshit, what I am saying is this; Every Exalt should be a viable place to have a story of 'you can't have earned the limitless power of an Exaltation before you got it, you can only earn it or justify it by how you use it'. DBs and Sidereals should not be prevented from accessing this story by being told 'no matter what you do you can't be proven to have earned it or justify it, no matter how many demons you slay, no matter how many miracles you preform' Solars and Lunars should not be prevented from accessing this story by being told 'no matter what you do you have already earned it or justified it. No matter what terrible thing you did, you earned this power and your actions are right' Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 22:23
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I legitimately don't know what the gently caress you're talking about because it sounds like you're perceiving half the thread as strawmen as disagreeing with you about the merits of a black vs white morality of exalts that you have entirely constructed in your own drat mind, my dude.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:31
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