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PoptartsNinja posted:I just don't get it. I mean they explained their reasoning. The audience and you explained why it might not be a good idea. I guess in the explosive amounts of posting maybe they didn't see? Or they still thought its a good idea?
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Sep 23, 2015 16:47
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:26 |
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PoptartsNinja posted:I do not comprehend this fascination with expending ammo on construction equipment. Are you telling me you wouldn't take your chance at getting sweet revenge upon years of construction delays messing with your life?
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Sep 23, 2015 16:55
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Artificer posted:I mean they explained their reasoning. The audience and you explained why it might not be a good idea. I guess in the explosive amounts of posting maybe they didn't see? Or they still thought its a good idea? Put on your goon hat: he's obviously trying to trick us so he can secretly exploit his master crane strategy. Why else would he put them on the map? 
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Sep 23, 2015 17:02
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I'm going to love it when the crane collapses and goes from being a one hex light cover to being a three hex siege trench.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:16
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PoptartsNinja posted:I do not comprehend this fascination with expending ammo on construction equipment. Pre-emptive scorched earth policy. If Comstar can't crane on this land, then nobody shall 
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Sep 23, 2015 17:20
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Right. Let's discuss LoS since I am not super clear on that. Have this visual aid courtesy of MS Paint: The filled in areas represent the areas I cannot see, assuming my LoS is drawn from the middle of my North facing hex. You might notice that my firing lanes do not seem to be all that great, at least not on first glance. Which part of the hex I want to shoot at do I have to be able to see? If any part of the hex is fine, then I suppose the cranes might not be worth our time since most of those hexes at least clip my LoS. However, if I need to be able to draw a line at the middle of the target hex, or the middle of its nearest facet, then it would be trivial for the enemy to approach all the way to close range without being threatened by my killguns. Nevertheless, I elected to shoot the middle crane since I have 16 rounds worth of ammo.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:29
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Perestroika posted:Pre-emptive scorched earth policy. If Comstar can't crane on this land, then nobody shall Makes the most sense to me, so I'm just going to go with this. Theantero posted:The filled in areas represent the areas I cannot see, assuming my LoS is drawn from the middle of my North facing hex. You might notice that my firing lanes do not seem to be all that great, at least not on first glance. Sorry, I shouldn't even be questioning player orders, y'all are free to play how you want. I just wanted to be sure you understand: those cranes hinder me a lot more than they hinder you. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 17:30
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Do LRMs even need direct line of sight to be able to hit something?
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Sep 23, 2015 17:47
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Theantero posted:Right. Let's discuss LoS since I am not super clear on that. Have this visual aid courtesy of MS Paint: One or two light covers shouldn't block line of sight completely (especially with the defenders elevation bonus), unless PoptartsNinja is using different rules. M8 might block line of sight if you're stationed exactly wrong, but otherwise there should "just" be a penalty to hit.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:50
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thetruegentleman posted:One or two light covers shouldn't block line of sight completely (especially with the defenders elevation bonus), unless PoptartsNinja is using different rules. M8 might block line of sight if you're stationed exactly wrong, but otherwise there should "just" be a penalty to hit. The cranes are buildings, buildings block line of sight. One or two light woods is enough to make anything benefiting from the cranes tactically impotent though.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:53
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Leave the cranes intact guys, you want fewer things shooting you at once when you are out numbered. There's no need to open up LoS. They have to come to you, after almost. That's the point of a siege!
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Sep 23, 2015 18:21
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PoptartsNinja posted:I just don't get it. Its because you were spoiled by having us last scenario.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:49
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tbqh as long as they don't leave the fort ever and kill things they will be good
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Sep 23, 2015 18:52
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PoptartsNinja posted:The cranes are buildings, buildings block line of sight. So the cranes are buildings, but the construction area is light woods? If that's the case, then destroying the crane at 1719 makes a fair amount of sense: it's blocking a turret and a fair amount of the road. As for the other cranes at M7, they aren't blocking enough space to be worth using ammo against; in fact, they may even help by shielding the turret. Attacking M8 was still kinda pointless, though.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:27
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thetruegentleman posted:Attacking M8 was still kinda pointless, though. M8 isn't a specific building, it's just the building class (medium) and the height (8 elevation levels / 40 meters tall).
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Sep 23, 2015 20:01
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PoptartsNinja posted:M8 isn't a specific building, it's just the building class (medium) and the height (8 elevation levels / 40 meters tall). I know, and attacking any of them is pointless. Should have phrased it better as "was and would be pointless".
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Sep 23, 2015 20:25
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PoptartsNinja posted:M8 isn't a specific building, it's just the building class (medium) and the height (8 elevation levels / 40 meters tall).
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Sep 23, 2015 20:30
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TheParadigm posted:Hey, aren't medium buildings actually pretty resilient? Does this mean that we'll see some of the enemy jumpers standing on top of the cranes to shoot over the walls? No on both counts.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:46
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TheParadigm posted:Hey, aren't medium buildings actually pretty resilient? Does this mean that we'll see some of the enemy jumpers standing on top of the cranes to shoot over the walls? 40 CF, so only things that weigh 40 tons or less can stand on them. The only thing that comes close is the Snake and it'd still instantly collapse any it tried to stand on (and doesn't jump high enough to reach the top of the crane anyway). Standing on buildings with less than a 20 ton leeway is pretty foolish in general. An Assassin standing on a medium building will collapse the hex instantly if a Flea so much as rakes the building with a single machinegun. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 21:07
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What about high enough to start hanging off it doing monkey impressions?
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Sep 23, 2015 21:09
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Laager: Tactical Update 3 “Help me clear some of these cranes out of the way.” Arakiel broadcast, her tone taking on an edge that brooked no argument. Vassago’s eyes flashed between his ammunition feed displays and his targeting crosshairs. He hovered over one of the cranes, torn between opening fire and questioning the necessity of it. Vassago hated wasting ammunition almost as much as he hated drawing Arakiel’s attention. He was Terran-born and Blake forgive him but genuine as her conversion had been the former periphery pirate terrified him. He depressed the firing stud with his thumb, sending two flights of missiles downrange. His shot was low, peppering the soil with explosions and eventually toppling the crane she’d fired on only moments before. “Missiles away,” he grunted. “Can I ask your reasoning?” “gently caress cranes?” Arakiel’s reply was flippant, as if her real reasoning was obvious. “Stop penny pinching, Vassago. You ain’t paying for the ammo. This is real combat, not the simulator. If you hold off the firing stud and I die because of it I swear to Blake I’m suplexing you in hell.”   Shooting Phase BattleMaster (Player) - Fires ER PPC at Helios (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement + 2 enemy movement = 12): rolled 6, miss! - Fires ER PPC at Helios (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement + 2 enemy movement = 12): rolled 7, miss! - Gains 32 heat, sinks 34 Viking (Player) - Fires Artemis IV LRM-15 at Crane 1613 (4 base + 4 range + 1 movement - 4 enemy movement = 5): rolled 7, 9 missiles hit (31/40 CF remaining)! - Fires Artemis IV LRM-15 at Crane 1613 (4 base + 4 range + 1 movement - 4 enemy movement = 5): rolled 8, 9 missiles hit (22/40 CF remaining)! - Fires Artemis IV LRM-20 at Crane 1613 (4 base + 4 range + 1 movement - 4 enemy movement = 5): rolled 7, 12 missiles hit (10/40 CF remaining)! - Fires Artemis IV LRM-20 at Crane 1613 (4 base + 4 range + 1 movement - 4 enemy movement = 5): rolled 4, miss! - Gains 23 heat, sinks 20 Catapult II (Player) - Fires LRM-20 at Crane 1515 (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 6): rolled 10, 6 missiles hit (4/40 CF remaining)! - Fires LRM-20 at Crane 1515 (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 6): rolled 8, 6 missiles hit (0/40 CF remaining)! - Gains 14 heat, sinks 20 Legacy (Player) - Fires Gauss Rifle at Crane 1918 (4 base + 2 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 4): rolled 10, hit (25/40 CF remaining)! - Fires Gauss Rifle at Crane 1918 (4 base + 2 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 4): rolled 7, hit (10/40 CF remaining)! - Fires ER Medium Laser at Crane 1918 (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 6): rolled 4, miss! - Fires ER Medium Laser at Crane 1918 (4 base + 4 range + 2 movement - 4 enemy movement = 6): rolled 4, miss! - Gains 14 heat, sinks 20 Lao Hu - Holds fire! Cataphract - Holds fire! Archer - Holds fire! Rifleman II - Holds fire! Huron Warrior - Holds fire! Snake - Holds fire! Helios - Holds fire! Wolverine - Holds fire! Von Luckner - Holds fire! Brutus - Holds fire! Brutus (PPC) - Holds fire! Demolisher (Gauss) - Holds fire!   Player Status:  Allied Status  Opposing Force Status:    Mission Objective: - Hurt them (0/3) - - Hurt them more (0/6) - - - Teach them the Word (0/9) Secondary Objectives: - Defend the Turret Control Tower (0/1) - Defend the Administration Building (0/1) - Keep enemy `Mechs out of the `Mechbay (0/1) Special Rules:  Construction Zones – Unless the hex states otherwise, all construction zones count as light woods. Reload Point – ComStar’s technicians are very motivated and have six tons of LRM reloads available. They can reload 2 tons of LRM ammo per turn spent inside the Mechbay. The Legacy isn’t built for quick reloads, but the technicians may be able to supply it with one additional ton of gauss rifle ammo. If only one `Mech is in the Mechbay the technicians will also replace damaged armor plates, restoring the armor on all damaged sections up to the nearest multiple of 5. If a section is already at a multiple of five, its armor cannot be restored. Hidden Assets – The light autocannon turrets are currently in low-power standby mode. ComStar has always maintained up rumors that the power grid supporting them is incomplete or somehow insufficient to power them. They will not open fire until at least two players request their activation on the same turn. This deception may be detected by enemy units with a Beagle Active Probe.Orders Due: Midnight Saturday!
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Sep 23, 2015 21:32
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Please add a crane counter to the stats, tia.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:38
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goatface posted:Please add a crane counter to the stats, tia. Number of LRM salvos wasted on cranes: 3
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Sep 23, 2015 21:50
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I really hope we get a blurb from the OpFor wondering why the hell ComStar keep's shooting at the cranes that offer the least advantage to either side.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:51
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thetruegentleman posted:I really hope we get a blurb from the OpFor wondering why the hell ComStar keep's shooting at the cranes that offer the least advantage to either side. Next round opfor with energy weapons all shoot the cranes to get them out of the way.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:56
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Viva Miriya posted:Number of LRM salvos wasted on cranes: 3 Enemy objective added: Defend the Cranes! Comstar is attempting to deny us their use for some reason!
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Sep 23, 2015 22:02
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Plan crane-kill was perfectly reasonable  But anyways. I have LoS on the Snake (+10 or +9 to-hit depending on whether or not I clip both of those construction sites or just one of them) and the Cataphract (+10 to-hit) from where I'm standing. Probably going with the snake since it is much less sturdy and we need kill-count, unless there are well reasoned objections to that.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:18
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If I stand still, I'm pretty sure I can hit anything on the left side with 10s. My best targets are probably the tanks (Von Luckner and Brutus) for a chance of mobility damage or the Archer (it's got the best long range firepower on this side). Which would be better? e: there's also the Cataphract, which has slightly less armor.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:25
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Technowolf posted:If I stand still, I'm pretty sure I can hit anything on the left side with 10s. My best targets are probably the tanks (Von Luckner and Brutus) for a chance of mobility damage or the Archer (it's got the best long range firepower on this side). It is worth noting that the Archer only has a +1 movement modifier unlike the others that have +2. This means you hit it on a 7+ (~58% chance) instead of an 8+ (~42% chance).
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Sep 23, 2015 22:35
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I'd try and LRM up some mobility kills personally. Also the Snake can bounce, the 'phract can merely sprint.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:35
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Theantero posted:It is worth noting that the Archer only has a +1 movement modifier unlike the others that have +2. This means you hit it on a 7+ (~58% chance) instead of an 8+ (~42% chance). 9s and 10s, respectively, but thanks for catching that!
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Sep 23, 2015 22:37
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Technowolf posted:9s and 10s, respectively, but thanks for catching that! Oh yes so they are. I was about to post those numbers too but then went 'No wait they are inside medium range  '.But yeah. With those numbers the +1 becomes way more relevant, with ~28% and ~17% chance of success respectively. I'd say go with the Archer.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:46
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Not sure if its been brought up and I missed it, but are the OpFor running without Gauss Rifle ammo? All of the other ammo reliant weapons have ammo counters.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:56
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Coffeehitler posted:Not sure if its been brought up and I missed it, but are the OpFor running without Gauss Rifle ammo? All of the other ammo reliant weapons have ammo counters. Nope, I probably just forgot to write down their ammo. It happens. I'll fix it the first time they fire (in general: 2 tons / 16 rounds of fire). Which is significantly better than the stock Rifleman II, which has a total of 2 tons of LB-10X ammo split between Slug and Cluster. Not two tons per gun, two tons total. 
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Sep 23, 2015 23:00
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Personally, it would be funnier if the pilots didn't realize that the ammo boys forgot to put the Gauss ammo in, but the OpFor would lose a massive amount of damage potential. But would explain why they're advancing on a base full of trigger-happy Com Guards.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:03
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A suplex, huh? This wouldn't happen to be a particular wrestlemania happy Pirate that joined Comstar now would it?!?!
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Sep 23, 2015 23:23
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Gwaihir posted:A suplex, huh? This wouldn't happen to be a particular wrestlemania happy Pirate that joined Comstar now would it?!?! Oh my God
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Sep 23, 2015 23:25
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Placing bets, only kills the players make this game are the cranes.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:30
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I actually think blowing up the cranes makes sense. Just, shoulda only used energy weapons... and you don't have enough of those in range with enough damage potential, so at that point, I'd ignore the cranes. It's especially painful to see LRM15 and 20 salvos missing, or being used to file off the last 3 damage on a building, but oh well. What would have been really cool is if the cranes toppled over right on top of enemy mechs as they collapsed, tangling them up with high-strength space cable and falling girders.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:38
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:26 |
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Destroying cranes that block line of sight kind of falls into the same area as the idea of leaving the fort to fight them at range and falling back - in very broad terms the idea sounds reasonable, you have to get into the nitty gritty to determine the real marginal benefit and particularly players that don't know all the rules off by heart are going to find that a more difficult judgment call. Knowing how much health the cranes had, knowing how limited their ammo really is and how hard getting reloads (a new feature to this scenario) would be, determining how many hexes they're actually blocking and at what range brackets, figuring out whether that's a net benefit to the players who seem to have the long-range advantage... I wouldn't be able to say if it's the right thing to do or not beyond the weight of the thread's opinion and PTN making a very rare comment on the players' orders (which even if he hadn't said anything still comes across in the fluff). Not to mention there just hasn't been much to do these first few turns, so there's a natural desire to do something productive even if the benefit is small rather than sitting on your thumbs. This looks like it could end up being a really static scenario, just sitting tight behind the walls and picking targets until someone survives breaking through the door or jumps, so looking for ways to be proactive or think outside the box is to be expected.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:56
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