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Sky Shadowing posted:a succinct summary of the Towers Thank you for that. From what I've read in the linked pages, when Felldir read the Elder Scroll at Alduin (along with using the Dragonrend Shout), he created the Time-Wound where Alduin was thrown forward in time (destroying Helgen and making it possible for Ulfric Stormcloak to escape). Felldir's actions created a timey-wimey vortex, so that the Summit of Snow-Throat didn't really exist in the same time-line as the rest of Mundus. This might have been what broke the Snow-Throat Tower to begin with. Wow, this lore is simultaneously awesome and kind of stupid.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:28
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LoonShia posted:Wow, this lore is simultaneously awesome and kind of stupid. elderscrollslore.txt
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Feb 14, 2015 17:35
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LoonShia posted:Wow, this lore is simultaneously awesome and kind of stupid.  I believe that the Amulet of Kings being one of the Towers is the justification as to how Molag Bal could start its invasion of Tamriel in ESO, but after Morrowind it can be argued that the games are now about fixing the remaining Towers so that the damage done in Daggerfall and Morrowind doesn't compromise things: with Oblivion the Amulet of Kings is no longer needed and things are stabler, and the Dragonborn actions "fix" Skyrim's by either allowing one faction to win or just by negotiating a truce and removing the consequences (Alduin) of the instability. Or everything from Oblivion onwards making "sense" like this could just be a coincidence and Bethesda's writers have no clue/don't care about this Kirkbridian stuff. 
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Feb 14, 2015 17:49
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LoonShia posted:Thank you for that. The Snow Tower was never a physical thing to begin with, but rather a metaphysical concept. That being the "unity of the Nordic people." Which really makes sense in the context of the prophecy's terms. "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, and bleeding," practically refers to the ongoing Civil War in Skyrim before and during the events of the game.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:54
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The whole TES lore, Kirkbridian or in-game is just poo poo they made up on the spot without any regard to past present or future continuity.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:02
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you don't need future continuity when you have dragon breaks!
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Feb 14, 2015 18:11
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Man Whore posted:you don't need future continuity when you have dragon breaks! and CHIM.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:12
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Bholder posted:The whole TES lore, Kirkbridian or in-game is just poo poo they made up on the spot without any regard to past present or future continuity. A significant amount of Kirkbridian lore is in-universe retcons. The Red King Once Jungled was a retcon for why Cyrodiil was explained as jungles and presented as generic Europe. The Talos/Wulfharth/Arctus Oversoul explained that once the Dragon Broke in Daggerfall they were able to merge and ascend to Godhood, thus, the Eight Divines of Daggerfall becoming the Nine Divines in Morrowind. I think the thing I liked most about Skyrim was that, as far as pre-standing lore, it was actually extremely accurate. Apart from things like Nocturnal giving you the Skeleton Key in Oblivion and you not being hunted down by Nightingales, or something. Then again, the Thieves Guild in Skyrim is probably the worst faction storyline Bethesda has ever written, in contrast to the Thieves Guild in Oblivion which is probably the best. And, of course, the replacement of the Nordic pantheon by the Imperial pantheon, but we had that discussion and there is at least an in-universe logic for it.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:33
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Sky Shadowing posted:A significant amount of Kirkbridian lore is in-universe retcons. The Red King Once Jungled was a retcon for why Cyrodiil was explained as jungles and presented as generic Europe. The Talos/Wulfharth/Arctus Oversoul explained that once the Dragon Broke in Daggerfall they were able to merge and ascend to Godhood, thus, the Eight Divines of Daggerfall becoming the Nine Divines in Morrowind. Ah, yes, the Skyrim Thieves Guild questline, where the final act is returning something which was stolen.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:49
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LoonShia posted:Ah, yes, the Skyrim Thieves Guild questline, where the final act is returning something which was stolen. Because it was causing bad luck to everyone in the guild. God, gently caress that quest-line. Even more so because without mods, it's p much the one questline you have to actively avoid.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:52
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Scyantific posted:Because it was causing bad luck to everyone in the guild. And it's the only questline (sorta) that gets in your face. The first time you walk into Riften Market, Brynjolf grabs your camera and goes "Hey! Do you think you're a bad enough dude to join the Thieves Guild?"
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Feb 14, 2015 19:01
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Scyantific posted:Because it was causing bad luck to everyone in the guild. Is it really that hard to do the recruitment quest and then never talk to them again?
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Feb 14, 2015 19:24
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LoonShia posted:And it's the only questline (sorta) that gets in your face. The first time you walk into Riften Market, Brynjolf grabs your camera and goes "Hey! Do you think you're a bad enough dude to join the Thieves Guild?" TES has been dumbed down since Morrowind. You can't have the people playing on 11/11/11 miss out on the Thieves Guild if you're a developer marketing a mass product. That's what Skyrim was, unlike Morrowind or even Oblivion.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:26
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I wish they did thieves guild like Oblivion brotherhood. Aka when you steal enough poo poo, you get contacted. And preferably threatened. Like if you don't join them and pay a cut to the guild, they steal your stolen items and gold in your sleep. Man I miss waking up to lucien's face.
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Feb 15, 2015 01:43
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nosl posted:TES has been dumbed down since Morrowind. You can't have the people playing on 11/11/11 miss out on the Thieves Guild if you're a developer marketing a mass product. That's what Skyrim was, unlike Morrowind or even Oblivion. Which is funny because Morrowind Thieves Guild started similarly. "Hello and welcome to the Thief Guild hideout, would you like to join?"
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Feb 15, 2015 01:55
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Bholder posted:Which is funny because Morrowind Thieves Guild started similarly. At least you actually have to say hello to them, after entering the hideout instead of being approached by them in the town square where everyone can see.
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Feb 15, 2015 02:00
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Moryrie posted:At least you actually have to say hello to them, after entering the hideout instead of being approached by them in the town square where everyone can see. People will downright point you towards the hideout, it's not even hidden.
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Feb 15, 2015 02:01
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But isn't the Thieves' Guild in Morrowind an established, well-known entity or something, or am I just thinking of the Camonna Tong?
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Feb 15, 2015 02:12
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The thieves guild is from the empire, is new to Morrowind and being crushed by the Camonna Tong, because they're so dumb that their leader (whose name everyone knows) just chills in a bar in a Camonna Tong stronghold. Enjoying anything Bethesda does always requires a lot of suspension of disbelief.
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Feb 15, 2015 02:15
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Bholder posted:People will downright point you towards the hideout, it's not even hidden. But even so, you still have to actually enter the hideout. You're not jumped as soon as you enter Balmora. You don't instantly have a quest to find the thieves guild added to your log.
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Feb 15, 2015 02:23
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Bholder posted:People will downright point you towards the hideout, it's not even hidden. I always interpreted that as the Thieves Guild being incredibly desperate for membership so they can try to stand up to the Camonna Tong. You also never get the sense that the Morrowind Thieves Guild is really, well, criminal. It's just the guild of people who like to break into poo poo.
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Feb 15, 2015 02:37
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Honestly the concept of a thieves guild doesn't really work well outside of a Renaissance or Roman Empire setting, IMO.
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Feb 15, 2015 03:15
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Really? Organised criminal groups with their own rules and hierarchies, who either recruit or eliminate competition, only work in those two contexts?
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Feb 15, 2015 04:00
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The Thieves Guild isn't organized crime, they're communists. Well, except in Skyrim then they're just a cult, and kind of assholes. But Morrowind and Oblivion they're probably the best "good guys" in a setting where most institutions are corrupt and poo poo.
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Feb 15, 2015 07:07
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Speaking of prophecies, it seems like poor writing to have a prophecy that includes backsies like red mountain and oblivion crisis, because I would think that bit of information would've lasted beyond the first era. I mean, the whole dragon thing was still a tall tale in nord culture until it actually happened, so why couldn't something like alduin's wall survive into the fourth era?
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Feb 15, 2015 07:40
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K8.0 posted:The thieves guild is from the empire, is new to Morrowind and being crushed by the Camonna Tong, because they're so dumb that their leader (whose name everyone knows) just chills in a bar in a Camonna Tong stronghold. Wait, Gentleman Jim Stacy doesn't chill in a bar.
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Feb 15, 2015 07:59
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I mean the local guildmaster or whatever the term for them is. It should have worked more like the Dark Brotherhood intro in Oblivion, not just everyone knowing exactly who you can go talk to to join the guild. Balmora has a major Camonna Tong presence, the Thieves Guild should be way more secretive there.
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Feb 15, 2015 08:04
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Well, the thieves guild is clearly concerned about security, and the people in the balmora theives guild hideout outnumber all the dudes I waxed for the guy in the imperial fort who had a "little problem". Stands to reason they're both worried about and prepared for a cammona tong assult. edit: and don't have the imperials breathing down their necks about everything
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Feb 15, 2015 08:10
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In Skyrim, it kind of made sense that Brynjolf would be able to approach you on an open street, since the Jarl of Riften was in Maven Blackbriar's pocket. You even have to pay a "toll" when entering town, and Brynjolf insinuates later that that was his doing. It strikes home that Riften is corrupted, all the way to the top. E: So what I'm saying is that not every part of the Thieves Guild questline was bullshit.
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Feb 15, 2015 08:15
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The fact that only one person commented on Brynjolf talking to you is what was awful writing. That and that there was no quest line to boot the thieves guild out. The same problem I had with the fighters guild in Oblivion. Don't give the player a faction that would reasonably hire them and make them unjoinable. In fact, Skyrim does this a lot. Thalmor if you're an elf/Khajiit. Forsworn if you're a nord. You can't replace one of the several jarls that it'd make sense to.
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Feb 15, 2015 08:36
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Nasgate posted:The fact that only one person commented on Brynjolf talking to you is what was awful writing. That and that there was no quest line to boot the thieves guild out. The same problem I had with the fighters guild in Oblivion. Don't give the player a faction that would reasonably hire them and make them unjoinable. This is a valid criticism but its pretty rare in TES games to do this. Like in Morrowind there's no way to side with the Carmona Tong or join up with the DB. The Sixth House being joinable didn't make the final game even though it was planned and the whole MQ is Dagoth Ur trying to win you over.
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Feb 15, 2015 09:30
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LoonShia posted:In Skyrim, it kind of made sense that Brynjolf would be able to approach you on an open street The thing that kinda bugs me is that Skyrim tracks stats like how many stuff you've stolen, how many pockets you've picked, etc. It would have been trivial to implement it so that Brynjolf only approaches a PC who's actually a thief.
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Feb 15, 2015 12:26
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I thought the corruption in Riften didn't go higher than the Steward, that Lalia Law-giver was well meaning but kept in the dark about what was going on in her city
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Feb 15, 2015 14:58
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Bholder posted:People will downright point you towards the hideout, it's not even hidden. Morrowind's my favorite game, but you're right. And it's underwhelming. It's just a loving underground bar with nothing there and extremely boring. There's a mod that fixes it... South Wall: Den of Iniquity.
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Feb 15, 2015 17:35
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Nasgate posted:In fact, Skyrim does this a lot. Thalmor if you're an elf/Khajiit. Forsworn if you're a nord. You can't replace one of the several jarls that it'd make sense to. As for the Thalmor, I can't see them letting anyone but a Somerset altmer join them, they're just too fanatically nihilistic.
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Feb 15, 2015 18:15
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Raygereio posted:You will have to try a lot of harder to have someone walking up to you and going "Hey, you're a thief! I can tell somehow by just looking at you. Want a job? Let us discuss the details in broad daylight, with load voices in the middle of a market and right in front of the intended target." make any sense whatsoever. Like this? A.o.D. posted:The forsworn were mostly bretons, but they were very open minded as to whom they would let join them, so yeah you should have been able to join them in Skyrim. If it wasn't for the facg that they were murderous daedra worshippers, they could have come across as heroic rebels. I like to say that the Forsworn are the Stormcloaks for the Stormcloaks. Everything the Imperials say about the Stormcloaks, the Stormcloaks say about the Forsworn. It's assholes all the way down.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:01
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A.o.D. posted:The forsworn were mostly bretons, but they were very open minded as to whom they would let join them, so yeah you should have been able to join them in Skyrim. If it wasn't for the facg that they were murderous daedra worshippers, they could have come across as heroic rebels. yeah, they really dropped the ball with so many factions where you could just say gently caress you to the current established governments. Join forsworn, take over all the holds. I meant more of the Thalmor hiring you for dirty work, not really letting you fully join ranks. You could've betrayed the college of Winterhold, and maybe do assassinations of Stormcloak generals/jarls.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:40
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Nasgate posted:In fact, Skyrim does this a lot. Thalmor if you're an elf/Khajiit. Forsworn if you're a nord. You can't replace one of the several jarls that it'd make sense to.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:43
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I dunno, I imagine the actual Thalmor grunts are just the same old Summerset troops with a sweet new paintjob, fighting for Mer independence and freedom from taxes or whatever. It's only when you get to the actual leaders that they understand anything beyond 'humans made us mortal  '. And the more feuding factions (Empire included) the more interesting the story becomes.
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Feb 15, 2015 19:50
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bloodclot posted:That doesn't make sense though, the Forsworn are pretty upfront about what they think of Nords. "Nord skull makes a fine axe blade. That's about all they're good for." I'll be honest. I forgot they're bretton. They die just as fast as nords and look just as similar to imperials. The man races really need an appearance rework.
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Feb 15, 2015 20:02
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