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Benagain posted:In 2011 a bold group of internet posters confronted a terrible evil and defeated it at the cost of their minds and souls. If you have a grognard problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire The Anti-Rape Team.
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Jul 13, 2011 14:21
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Lemon Curdistan posted:e; Cirno would you feel upset if someone bought you the Cirno-in-an-actual-(not-Batman)-penguin-suit avatar with the "anti-rape penguin" title?
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Jul 13, 2011 14:22
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quote:I'm pretty gawd drat old-school, and will quite happily point what what I don't like about newer editions (gently caress, I hate much of the late 1e poo poo), but it is more of a "I don't like the paths D&D has evolved along." Kinda like saying "you're not my son anymore!" to your kid. quote:And that might be why it is such a "loaded" thing to say, too, I suppose. "Why do you no longer love our child? How can you disown him? It did so well in the last exams. He's gay/drug addicted/loves a black woman/works with a competitor of our business/<other reason>, but still a good boy!". It basically forces people to jump to its defense.
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Jul 13, 2011 14:29
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What if he's addicted to loving the black son of the owner of your business competitor?
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Jul 13, 2011 14:35
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You know, the casual racism and homophobia are terrible...but what is most hilarious is the implied 'I am more grognard than you can EVER BE, I started hating new things in D&D before First Edition ended  '
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Jul 13, 2011 14:37
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I can't parse that. On what side are the Old School players in that conversation? Did he just equate being homosexual or in an interracial relationship with drug addiction? Is he condoning or condemning disowning your son for being gay, and is he saying you should support your son even if he is having sex with those drat gays/blacks or is he mocking those who defend their son in spite of doing such terrible things?
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Jul 13, 2011 14:39
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The question at hand was is "Is 4e really D&D?" Junior, ever since you gained martial daily powers and got a hummer off that Negro boy you're just not my son anymore!
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Jul 13, 2011 14:53
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Halloween Jack posted:Muh-muh-muh MY WIZARDS What the gently caress is wrong with this game? I can trivially create novel and interesting encounters? Most of my combats aren't endless monotonous pieces of poo poo? THIS IS NOT TRUE ROLEPLAYING GOOD SIR.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:04
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Halloween Jack posted:Junior, ever since you gained martial daily powers and got a hummer off that Negro boy you're just not my son anymore! Encounter Power: Gay Sex Homosexual, Implement, Invigorating Effect: Begin having Gay Sex with a willing ally. Sustain Minor: You continue having Gay Sex Special: This power can be used a number of times per day equal to your Constitution modifier.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:08
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Splicer posted:Encounter Power: Gay Sex That would be Sustain Standard if you're a top.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:32
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quote:And that might be why it is such a "loaded" thing to say, too, I suppose. "Why do you no longer love our child? How can you disown him? It did so well in the last exams. He's gay/drug addicted/loves a black woman/works with a competitor of our business/<other reason>, but still a good boy!". It basically forces people to jump to its defense. Mors Rattus posted:You know, the casual racism and homophobia are terrible...but what is most hilarious is the implied 'I am more grognard than you can EVER BE, I started hating new things in D&D before First Edition ended 
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Jul 13, 2011 15:48
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Jesus, I step away from the computer for like 2 days and this thread jumps 300 posts of the most amazing poo poo. I love all of you.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:57
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crime fighting hog posted:Jesus, I step away from the computer for like 2 days and this thread jumps 300 posts of the most amazing poo poo. Likewise. I woke up to over 200 new posts and the thrillride of a lifetime 
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Jul 13, 2011 16:08
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Evil Mastermind posted:In other news EDIT: Sentences expanded for clarity. It's really just a re-skinned version of the Volk v. degenerate argument. The Pundit's role-playing is pure-hearted and vigorous, Swine role-playing is intellectual and instrumental. The Pundit's role-playing is engergetic and vital, bourgeois roleplaying is vapid and materialistic.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:36
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You know, I'm beginning to think that Frank Trollman doesn't understand the concept of "game balance"...quote:Yes. It is a monstrously huge problem for game balance that absolutely anyone can - at any time - fire a gun or drive a car. It's one of the reasons that mages in Shadowrun are so much more powerful than mages in Earthdawn. Every character has access to the basic tools of the modern world, and a lot of those replicate 5th or 6th level spells in D&D-land. So every spell and every enhancement that has a stress cost is being compared - not to a hairless ape - not even to a medieval foot soldier - but to the capabilities of a tool using super spy in the future. Things like being monstrously strong can be really cheap, because anyone who really cares can shoot a gun or use a forklift to load things onto a truck. Have I mentioned that I hate Frank Trollman?
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Jul 13, 2011 16:48
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I'm not even parsing his argument here. He's not writing in coherent English, but some form of negative English, which makes nega-sense.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:51
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Anyone at all can use a forklift and drive and poo poo, literally anyone born in the modern era. I, as someone who can't drive, am obviously a time-mage from the medieval age. WHAT IS THIS MAGIC BOX STEALING MY WORDS?!
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Jul 13, 2011 17:04
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In fairness, a game system that makes you spend points on being able to drive a normal car in the modern era is being silly. Maybe a flaw where you get points for not being able to, but...
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Jul 13, 2011 17:24
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For context, here's what Frank's trying to do. He wants a system where cybernetics, magical augments, and magic items all draw from the same "pool" kind of like Essence in Shadowrun or Exalted. Okay, fine, makes sense, and it sounds like (in the right hands) it could keep gear from getting too out of hand. Then catsoup pointed out: quote:Though that still leaves a theoretical problem with technological items - why get cyberware/or why not double up with nifty non-implanted tech items. Because unlike magic, there's not a whole lot of in character reason for why using guns and grenades should take as much upkeep time and focus as cybernetics and not be something you can casual double up on - mix and match yes, double up on no. Though simply downplaying item madness and focusing Punk characters more on contacts and safehouses and PREP TIME stuff in general might diffuse some of that niche tension. In other words, if cyberware and magic items and such take up "slots" of your soul, why get them? Why not just get gear that doesn't require you to attune it to yourself and use that instead of (or in addition to) your special gear? Now, that's a valid question, right? But then Frank responds with this (which is the bit I already quoted before): quote:Yes. It is a monstrously huge problem for game balance that absolutely anyone can - at any time - fire a gun or drive a car. It's one of the reasons that mages in Shadowrun are so much more powerful than mages in Earthdawn. Every character has access to the basic tools of the modern world, and a lot of those replicate 5th or 6th level spells in D&D-land. So every spell and every enhancement that has a stress cost is being compared - not to a hairless ape - not even to a medieval foot soldier - but to the capabilities of a tool using super spy in the future. Things like being monstrously strong can be really cheap, because anyone who really cares can shoot a gun or use a forklift to load things onto a truck. I think. The other problem is this line: quote:So every spell and every enhancement that has a stress cost is being compared - not to a hairless ape - not even to a medieval foot soldier - but to the capabilities of a tool using super spy in the future. But Frank's foundation is this "super spy" idea that has no definition whatsoever. Is the "super spy" cybered? Enchanted? Does he just have a ton of cool gizmos? Or is it all just skill? We don't know, because he didn't define it before using it as his yardstick (if I can mix my metaphors a bit). His basic character foundation isn't there, but he's trying to build his whole character-balancing mechanic on top of it. But then again, if you read the thread, he's just bouncing back and forth from idea to idea without building on them or figuring how they fit together. "He's the races. Here's how I'm going to work cyberware and Have I mentioned that I hate Frank Trollman?
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Jul 13, 2011 17:34
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Evil Mastermind posted:You know, I'm beginning to think that Frank Trollman doesn't understand the concept of "game balance"... I know what he means here but his lovely writing leads one to believe that he intends you to load a truck by shooting a gun. Frank Trollman.
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Jul 13, 2011 17:48
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I think his incredibly hard-to-follow writing is the source of TGD's love for him. He just throws in a shitton of buzzwords, promises the world, and does it in a nearly incomprehensible way. So they can hardly understand it, too, but by god it sounds nice when someone's promising to fix all the issues with Shadowrun!
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Jul 13, 2011 18:09
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Darwinism posted:I think his incredibly hard-to-follow writing is the source of TGD's love for him. He just throws in a shitton of buzzwords, promises the world, and does it in a nearly incomprehensible way. So they can hardly understand it, too, but by god it sounds nice when someone's promising to fix all the issues with Shadowrun! "It's cool, isn't it? It goes right up to the point of being, like, confusing." - Invisible Boy
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Jul 13, 2011 18:17
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Evil Mastermind posted:As an added bonus, he seems to think (at least, he used to think) that there's an actual Indie Gamer Hipster Conspiracy that was trying to troll him out of existence or destroy traditional gaming or something, and everyone who is a Swine or who disagrees with him is part of it. It's a strange bunker mentality that seems to extend out of the "me vs. them" mentality.
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Jul 13, 2011 18:30
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FMguru posted:Nah, that's just runaway ego (of the same sort that would cause some nobody to style himself as "the RPG Pundit"). I'm so important and my writings are so close to shaking the foundations of the industry with their rock-solid Truthtelling that enormous efforts are organized against me!
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Jul 13, 2011 18:46
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Evil Mastermind posted:No, he's actually accused people of being part of some big organized "conspiracy" against his views. It was on some comments on his blog but I can't go check since blogs are blocked at work. Not that I'd know how to search for that anyway, but still.
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Jul 13, 2011 18:50
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FMguru posted:I agree, the paranoia is real, but the source is his inflated self-image as The One Man Who Speaks The Truth To The RPG Industry. Speaking of that, consider this a placeholder for when i find the quote where joethe"lawyer" says he thinks the potshots he takes at WotC from his blog and on various OSR forums are going to make WotC change their ways.
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Jul 13, 2011 18:58
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In that "Frank Copies Shadowrun" thread, someone had a half-idea about a "wheel" thing where A is effective against B, B is effective against C, and C is effective against A. Kind of an extension of "if tech and magic can't mix, which beats which? Does magic short out tech, or is tech more grounded in reality than magic?". Again, a valid question for a fantasy cyberpunk game, right? Frank responded. It's...enlightening. In the sense that reading an Elder Tome and taking 2d10 SAN loss is "enlightening". As a service to my fellow grognards.txt posters (and because I hate myself), I will now break down his argument MST3K-style. quote:Actually, the hope would be that Magic would be strong against something other than Magic and Hacking would be strong against something other than Hacking. quote:The first step in making a functioning wheel is to make it a wheel that turns. If you make the various spokes self referential you end up with winners and losers - which is why people make "Magic Run" jokes and consign the Decker to be an NPC. quote:In Rock, Paper, Scissors each wheel spoke is balanced because it beats another thing and loses to another thing. If you introduced "The Bird" where it needed someone else to flip the bird in order to be overcome, the game would be unbalanced. People would just flip the bird at each other all the time. Frank's "The Bird" example is flawed for a pretty obvious reason that I'm going to point out anyway: If you have a rock-paper-scissors setup, the there will be something that will counteract "The Bird". It's not like Rock beats Scissors but isn't beaten by anything. The wheel is round, you see. That means it goes all the way around. If "The Bird" is on the where, then there would logically be something else on there that'd beat it. Even so, in an RPG there's more than one thing you can do to counter one of the spokes. Nobody Even if magic shorts out technology, I should still be able to geek the mage by shooting him a lot or hitting him with a car or just wailing on him with a baseball bat. If technology counteracts magic, that doesn't stop a mage from greasing someone with a spell to set the room he's in on fire, or hit him a car, or wail on him with a baseball bat. In other words, there's no linear relationship to what beats what. (Huh...maybe that's why Frank thinks that driving a car should be mechanically equivalent to casting a spell) I am, in fact flipping the bird at Frank right now. Does that mean I beat him? quote:So ultimately I think that hackers should be good at stopping hackers and magicians should be good at stopping magicians. quote:So you get the equivalent of counterspells but not the equivalent of Immunity to Normal Weapons. By this model, by the way, there should be some sort of "countershooting" for gun types. quote:So the enemy has a wizard, therefore you want to hack them or something. quote:The elemental superiority wheel needs work, as before it can really be nailed down the grand list of supported archetypes needs to be there. So it's probably as good a time as any to start thinking of what the sample characters should be. quote:For starters, there should be at least two samples of each offshoot human type, to prevent them from getting too stereotyped by the players. quote:One of the demihumans of each branch should go Disgaea-style where they buy up a bunch of their mutant powers. So one of the elves would load up on fairy juice and fly around and turn invisible and poo poo. One of the demihumans of each type should take pretty much the basic package and go off in some other direction entirely with the rest of their Stress. quote:That lays down a minimum of 10 demihumans. 2 Deep Ones, 2 Dwarves, 2 Elves, 2 Ogres, 2 Asura. If I end up finding an African demihuman type that I want to fold in, it goes up to 12. quote:The number of humans should be larger than the number of demihumans, because otherwise you end up portraying mundane humans as the minority, which is not the case. So that's another 11, minimum. Yeah, we wouldn't want humans being the minorty. Interesting that there aren't two versions of humans too. quote:The four man party equivalent should probably be "Enforcer, Face, Hacker, Mage" with the different categories getting love in the form of different characters using different Stress combinations to pull them off. So one Enforcer might be a cyber-ogre with superior size, strength, speed, and resilience. Another enforcer might be a human juicer like unto Bane from Batman. "Point buy? Heavens no! We have quote:Once that is blocked out, the different methodologies should themselves be blocked out such that there are more roles than expected players - giving each team some assessable strengths and weaknesses. quote:So with 23 archetypes to write up, I should probably set some of them down: I don't know where he's getting this number "23" from either. Of course, given that Frank will never change an idea or back up and reapproach something once he's come up with it, he's locked himself into coming up with 23 distinct "classes" for cyberfantasy. Should be interesting to see how that ends up working out. I have now put more thought into this one post chunk than Frank has into his entire game. Have I mentioned that I hate Frank Trollman?
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Jul 13, 2011 19:00
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The really funny thing about that Trollman quote is that his complaint about balancing mages entirely rests on the assumption that there should be a spell to make them as good at anything as anyone. He's worried about mages being too powerful, but he can't even conceive of the answer being simply "don't let them do everything" (much less "maybe magic isn't really appropriate for this game"). e: ^^^ Like, see, he says the roles of the party are "enforcer, hacker, face, mage". That's three people specialized in one particular arena of accomplishment each, and then the mage is specialized in...using magic to do anything he wants, I guess?
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Jul 13, 2011 19:06
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Referencing Disgaea in a Shadowrun 2.0 design thread...k... Also, I feel bad for whoever has to read Frank's medical papers. If his forum chatter is this bad...
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Jul 13, 2011 19:07
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Coming soon: I'm Going to Put a Nail Up Your Dick, The RPG! all you weak sauce so-called "A"D&D players had better beware, I'm releasing my homegrown D&D variant, paid for with blood plasma and food stamp sales. "I'm Going To Put A Nail Up Your Dick" will be the most off the (bloody, chunky meat-)hook RPG ever released. The guys who wrote FATAL will commit suicide when they see it. Some sample elements it will include: What Is That Thing Oh God Oh God gently caress gently caress Melt Out My Eyes With A Red Hot Stiff Wire creature generation! That's right! Don't sit around using some namby-pamby monsters that you can actually describe with sounds that don't cause babies to spontaneously abort! The WITTOGOGFFMOMEYEWARHSWCG will create things that will make you saw off your own privates* just to make sure you don't have kids that might grow up and see what your infernal hands have wrought! PainPages: the edge of every page will come with an affixed glass blade formerly used** for eye surgery! Nobody should enjoy RPGs, so your hands will suffer compulsory maiming every time you play. Supplement VI VI VI : I Spit On Gary's Grave will introduce new classes like nun-Rapist and spells like Char The Village, Eat The Maimed Twitching Survivors In Front Of Their Weeping Children, Then Murder The Children. Of course, no RPG published by me is complete without a 900 page list of Why All AD&D Should Resemble Cannibal Corpse Album Covers And Why I'm Right About That And I'll Kill You*** If You Suggest Otherwise Or Try To Actually Have Fun Gaming, so that will make up the balance of what you get in the Blasphemy Box. Initially there were plans to include a campaign world, but it was so awesome it went back in time and butchered your parents and siblings in front of you on Christmas Morning so release has been pushed back until I can create a ward that will contain the Anti-God energy. Like all RPGs, this one is community supported, by which I mean I swindled the government into paying for it under the guise of performance art. Also it means if you don't buy it I'm going to take a page out of the Esoteric Deathbook and do it to everyone in your community. So buy plenty of copies! First 666 purchasers get a picture of me with a prolapsed dice bag! So that's I'm Going to Put a Nail Up Your Dick, The RPG! A game where "dark horror, murder, childrape and torture" is how you say "good morning!" to your players! ... *=only men should play RPGs, ever. AND ESPECIALLY NOT HAVE FUN WITH THEM. **=Not cleaned, just used. ***=...by which I whine smugly at you (yes, I have the ability to whine smugly) on various forums.
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Jul 13, 2011 19:29
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