|
I mean, PW is the better game but I kinda think it's unfairly maligned also, PW wouldn't even exist if PO didn't lay down the basic framework.
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 13:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 13:37 |
|
|
Ambivalent posted:also i really wanna dig into the 'portable ops is actually better than peacewalker' thing a little bit later in another post because i will fist fight that take, Peacewalker is spectacular I'll hold that take's arms, you punch it in the stomach
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 13:16
|
|
|
I think PO is a bit unfairly maligned (especially if you play it emulated with remapped and saner controls...) but Peace Walker is better in practically every way that matters. I do like the story of PO though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 13:24
|
|
|
Every time I've tried PO, I stop playing when I get tired of humping unconscious bodies all the way back to the truck. Gimmie dat Fulton skyhook. When I play PW, I fulton everything. APC boss battle? I'm CQCing the entire squad into unconciousness and fultoning them out. Helicopter? I'm tranqing the pilot and fultoning him out. MGSV? Don't even get me started on how I depopulate the entire map via fulton, then fire half the newly recruited guys, because they're trash. I'm like a reverse Santa, sneaking in the chimney, and leaving with all the good little boys and girls as presents for Kaz.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:18
|
|
|
On the other hand, PW and especially MGS V gets a little stale with the same strategy of tranquing everyone and fultoning them out. As slow as dragging people to the truck was, you at least had to have a little consideration about others spotting you when extracting soldiers. Later on you can drag them to cardboard boxes and order others to extract them which lessened the tedium a little. I dunno. I get hating extracting soldiers slowly in PO but I kinda feel like the fulton solution is a bit brainless and too simple. There should be some risk in extraction I feel, just without the tedium of PO.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:28
|
|
|
The real problem is the concept of extraction. It seems cool, but it really dumbs gameplay down way too much. MGS V would be a much better game without it, and the way Ground Zeroes plays proves this. Obviously you can not extract enemies, but then you don't get any new gear, which also locks you into a very limited playstyle. It's the one big design flaw of the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:31
|
|
|
Death Stranding but you just pile up 10 bodies on your backpack
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:31
|
|
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:On the other hand, PW and especially MGS V gets a little stale with the same strategy of tranquing everyone and fultoning them out. If you get bored of fultoning people in Peace Walker you can blow their heads off with the best selection of guns in the entire series
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:38
|
|
|
Actually now that I think about it, Ground Zeroes actually fixed the problem entirely. You were tasked with extracting Paz and Chico but you couldn't use fultons. But you were a lot more mobile than in PO and could sprint while carrying them to the extraction point but it also limited the ways you can defend yourself if you get spotted. MGS V could have had the fultons be a mid to late game option, requiring you to actively scout out the best soldiers and thinking about the best way to subdue and extract them without being spotted. Oh well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:46
|
|
|
PW is better than PO (and MGSV) because Snake goes “You’re fired!” when you dismiss some low rank soldier.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
Kibayasu posted:PW is better than PO (and MGSV) because Snake goes “You’re fired!” when you dismiss some low rank soldier. And I believe the dialogue exists in the game files for MGSV, it's just unused. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
Ambivalent posted:All those details are missing from that one hallway in Twin Snakes, and it is the care given to small details that is part of what makes Metal Gear stuff so special. This rant put a lot of interconnected issues into focus, well done.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
K8.0 posted:The real problem is the concept of extraction. It seems cool, but it really dumbs gameplay down way too much. MGS V would be a much better game without it, and the way Ground Zeroes plays proves this. Obviously you can not extract enemies, but then you don't get any new gear, which also locks you into a very limited playstyle. It's the one big design flaw of the game. Whoa there bud, it's Thanksgiving not Opposite Day
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:On the other hand, PW and especially MGS V gets a little stale with the same strategy of tranquing everyone and fultoning them out. I mean, 'build up your army by extracting the oppo' is a core concept in PO, PW and V.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 18:37
|
|
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:Actually now that I think about it, Ground Zeroes actually fixed the problem entirely. You were tasked with extracting Paz and Chico but you couldn't use fultons. But you were a lot more mobile than in PO and could sprint while carrying them to the extraction point but it also limited the ways you can defend yourself if you get spotted. Yeah it would've made the stealth balance a lot better if you couldn't and didn't need to fulton most of the enemies in your path. It would be nice if you filled out the MB ranks with mediocre soldiers by collecting them in automated recruitment missions that you send your soldiers on, and then when you ran into a superstar on the battlefield you had to figure out how to extract them via chopper. And then in the latter half of the game you get a few fultons so that replaying old missions to get the good soldiers and level up MB is less of a chore.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
Ambivalent posted:also i really wanna dig into the 'portable ops is actually better than peacewalker' thing a little bit later in another post because i will fist fight that take, Peacewalker is spectacular Better controls don't make a better game. Peace Walker and MGSV are the equivalent of Resident Evil 6 in that regard.  The easier it becomes to just shoot my way through without thinking, the worse it is as a Metal Gear game. Twin Snakes and MGS2 also slipped in that regard, with first person aiming along with tranq pistols, but at least dudes would wake up if you didn't put them in a locker. PW/MGSV lets you remove them from the map, and rewards you for it. Heck, it penalises you for using lethal weapons, rather than representing any kind of logical trade off. While dragging dudes to extract them was tedious as gently caress in PO, fultons made the problem worse by allowing you to just remove bodies from the map. Ground Zeroes did it best, by only incentivising you to extract a few key individuals per mission, and having them be reasonably extracted a number of ways. The boss fights in PW were complete arse. Fighting a random APC is boring. A generic helicopter as a boss fight is dull as dishwater. Also, gently caress Zadornov's grindy bullshit forever. PO meanwhile, let you start recruiting Big Boss's own team of superpowered weirdos, and even let you use their abilities. TheCenturion posted:When I play PW, I fulton everything. APC boss battle? I'm CQCing the entire squad into unconciousness and fultoning them out. Helicopter? I'm tranqing the pilot and fultoning him out. This is the problem with the entire recruitment mechanic and the number of staff leading to a linear increase in stats. I 100% blame PO for introducing it, but PW is the one that doubled down and made a bad system worse via Fulton. And it's a shame that Fulton is a terrible system, because the balloon is great! It's really funny! If they had to implement it, it should've been a single-use thing though. TheCenturion posted:I mean, 'build up your army by extracting the oppo' is a core concept in PO, PW and V. Yeah, build up your army is cool. Having to manually recruit each member of that army isn't. Doing so not being literally the easiest way to play is just  . PO's system kinda worked when you're just out to extract one guy, if you only extract that one guy. Again, GZ did it best.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2020 23:54
|
|
|
I agree that GZ had a great middle ground.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 00:28
|
|
|
Captain Hygiene posted:Whoa there bud, it's Thanksgiving not Opposite Day
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 01:13
|
|
|
Honestly from the way it is designed I assume that "you needed to extract people manually until you get an upgrade" was how it was planned and playtesters hated it. I personally agree it would be more fun but I am ninety percent sure that it being more difficult and frustrating for a core mechanic of the game would just piss a lot of more casual players off, even if you decreased the number of soldiers needed for stuff. It's a difficult line to tread and enough people like fultoning that they probably made the right choice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:32
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It's a difficult line to tread and enough people like fultoning that they probably made the right choice. While I won't contest that it's definitely the popular choice, I will always argue that it isn't the right choice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:43
|
|
|
The Fultoning feeding in to the base building comes off as a poorly modeled (probably on purpose) method of monetizing the game. Like it’s amazing how badly implemented MB coins are. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to use MB coins for materials or to buy S++ staff. I wouldnt have bought them in that case either, but to have them only useful for buying FOBs and to speed up development time is just lol dumb.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:44
|
|
|
Look Sir Droids posted:The Fultoning feeding in to the base building comes off as a poorly modeled (probably on purpose) method of monetizing the game. I can't really agree with that since fultoning feeding into base building was ripped right from PW.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:46
|
|
|
How feasible is it to just mostly ignore fultoning guys, aside from occasionally grabbing some decently leveled ones? I would've figured you could get by without depending on it, just maybe not getting to the OP tier weapon unlocks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:46
|
|
|
MGSV wasn't anywhere near as bad as PW as far as fulton grinding goes, as far as I'm concerned. I felt like I had done all I wanted to do in MGSV (because I don't give a poo poo about the FOB bollocks) without going out of my way, while in PW there were all these boss battles I wanted to do but couldn't because a.) I seemingly wasn't very good at the game, b.) I was playing by myself, and c.) I did not feel like running through the same missions over and over in the hopes that it spawns A guys instead of B guys to fulton.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:46
|
|
|
Captain Hygiene posted:How feasible is it to just mostly ignore fultoning guys, aside from occasionally grabbing some decently leveled ones? I would've figured you could get by without depending on it, just maybe not getting to the OP tier weapon unlocks. You will need to grab some eventually but you can go a fairly long while without doing so. You'll have to fulton some people for missions though like getting translators.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:47
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You will need to grab some eventually but you can go a fairly long while without doing so. You'll have to fulton some people for missions though like getting translators. That's kinda what it felt like, I will never stop fultoning people left and right because it's one of the greatest joys I've had in a game, but I figured you probably don't have to lean into it that far.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 04:53
|
|
|
Maybe they should have made it so that, based on your score, random soldiers are convinced to join your side? Or maybe you just mark soldiers with the in-game explanation of "We'll contact them later" and so as a result you have to make sure they live through the mission you're currently on, and they join you after the mission is over because they are so impressed by your awesomeness
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:21
|
|
|
SolidSnakesBandana posted:Maybe they should have made it so that, based on your score, random soldiers are convinced to join your side? Or maybe you just mark soldiers with the in-game explanation of "We'll contact them later" and so as a result you have to make sure they live through the mission you're currently on, and they join you after the mission is over because they are so impressed by your awesomeness You do get people asking to join based off your heroism stuff IIRC. Just not like a ton and you can't pick and choose.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:25
|
|
|
Hedgehog Pie posted:MGSV wasn't anywhere near as bad as PW as far as fulton grinding goes, as far as I'm concerned. I felt like I had done all I wanted to do in MGSV (because I don't give a poo poo about the FOB bollocks) without going out of my way, while in PW there were all these boss battles I wanted to do but couldn't because a.) I seemingly wasn't very good at the game, b.) I was playing by myself, and c.) I did not feel like running through the same missions over and over in the hopes that it spawns A guys instead of B guys to fulton. PW is 100% not designed for solo play vs all but the weakest bosses, which is its greatest weakness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:27
|
|
|
I think an easier way to fix fultoning is to just limit how many times you can do it a mission. I don't remember how many the game gave you but I don't remember ever having to worry about running out of them, and it made sneaking around enemies trivial because they'd all disappear from the area. If you could only extract say, two dudes from the base, you'd probably be a lot more choosey about who to take with you each time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:41
|
|
|
Look Sir Droids posted:The Fultoning feeding in to the base building comes off as a poorly modeled (probably on purpose) method of monetizing the game. You can use them to speed up online combat deployments, some of which the reward is a bunch of materials. It just also costs some soldiers to do that, not just straight coins. It’s also a huge waste of coins, it’s like 500 coins to finish a mission a couple days early, but the loop is there if you want it. I’ve said it before but soldiers are really one of the primary currencies of the game. Deployments let you “spend” the currency for plants+resources, for an advantage at PF battles, for an advantage in-game (destroy body armor, etc), and so on. Keep the good ones and don’t spend yourself to the point where you start to get hurt in other areas, of course. But a good Boss should be taking out the trash regularly in the most profitable fashion. Always be churning. (Btw on the discussion of whether ABMs and missiles are worth it - PF short leagues don’t affect rank so you can use all the missiles you want there.) SolidSnakesBandana posted:Maybe they should have made it so that, based on your score, random soldiers are convinced to join your side? Or maybe you just mark soldiers with the in-game explanation of "We'll contact them later" and so as a result you have to make sure they live through the mission you're currently on, and they join you after the mission is over because they are so impressed by your awesomeness I like the idea of removing fultons and only allowing heli extractions but as noted the base-building grind is a core part of the gameplay, it’s tough to unwind this without spiking the difficulty of the game. Maybe making the helicopter much faster by default (and less visible at night) would help, along with more heli pickup sites. So you can only extract by heli, but it’s less risky (but still not zero risk) and less tedious. Maybe tying it to mission performance would be interesting though, like if you just murder your way through the mission then they’re “disgusted with you” and you don’t get recruits. Or you get combat soldiers for killing (“jarheads like killing”) and other types of soldiers for using other approaches. Forcing you to embrace multiple play styles. If you were going to do it you would have to significantly increase drop rate of after-round soldiers which I’m not sure would be an overall positive change, you would replace Fulton being easy with just giving soldiers to the player. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Nov 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:52
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:Maybe tying it to mission performance would be interesting though, like if you just murder your way through the mission then they’re “disgusted with you” and you don’t get recruits. Or you get combat soldiers for killing (“jarheads like killing”) and other types of soldiers for using other approaches. This. If you're doing things like a legendary soldier, you should be rewarded. Ghosting missions is actually bad for you, since you don't get to fulton people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 05:59
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You will need to grab some eventually but you can go a fairly long while without doing so. You'll have to fulton some people for missions though like getting translators. Momomo posted:I think an easier way to fix fultoning is to just limit how many times you can do it a mission. I don't remember how many the game gave you but I don't remember ever having to worry about running out of them, and it made sneaking around enemies trivial because they'd all disappear from the area. If you could only extract say, two dudes from the base, you'd probably be a lot more choosey about who to take with you each time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 06:17
|
|
|
K8.0 posted:The real problem is the concept of extraction. It seems cool, but it really dumbs gameplay down way too much. MGS V would be a much better game without it, and the way Ground Zeroes plays proves this. Obviously you can not extract enemies, but then you don't get any new gear, which also locks you into a very limited playstyle. It's the one big design flaw of the game. Tranq sniper also makes the game piss-easy but I don’t really have a good solution for that beyond “don’t let players mod the snipers (like stun ARC NL) and they don’t have a silencer (or very limited silencer) so they all force you to go loud”. Like, game is pretty much over once you get a tranq sniper and a suppressor for it (master gunsmith). Just shoot legs and arms and they go down in 2 seconds flat. When everyone is down then extract everyone. Even the original S-pistol is very powerful and you can argue maybe should have been implemented as the “EZ Gun” for lower difficulty modes. Like the chicken hat. The only real counter the game has is armor/helmets and riot suit dudes. Riot suit is just really exceptionally unfun to play against as well, I loathe the “challenge mode” missions that are jam packed with riot suit dudes. If you took away the abundance of tranq and stun weapons and gave them some real downsides then extraction becomes something you have to earn by outplaying and stunning an enemy instead of being a zero-risk gimmie. I know, I know, nothing stopping me from playing that way if I want, and it would gently caress the difficulty curve hardcore. But tranq weapons are super OP in this game and have basically no downside. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Nov 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 07:06
|
|
|
A way to balance tranqs against other playstyles would be to nerf them in two specific but logical ways: - Tranqs aren't ignored: if a guard gets shot with a tranquilizer dart in a limb or the body, they notice. It's silly that they don't. The same applies for other soldiers who discover a tranquilized target. They see the dart sticking out of their friend and raise the alarm. - Shooting someone multiple times with tranquilizer darts kills them: this is to prevent spamming shots into people's legs if you can't get the headshot. You're injecting significant quanities of anesthetic into someone, of course they're going to die. Tangent: I'd also liked to have seen tranquilizers have effects on people before it knocks them out. As it is, someone with a tranquilizer in them acts exactly like anyone else until suddenly they keel over unconscious. It would have been cool if their movements became sluggish as the tranquilizer took effect and they struggled to speak and aim, inhibiting their ability to communicate or fight. Kind of like in MGS3 if you shot a guard's limbs or blew up their food strorages.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 07:29
|
|
|
I used to do more chopper based extractions for giggles, until I realized how expensive chopper calls are if you keep using them unless you slum it on the engine. This was probably around when I realized the reason I had money problems early on was because resupply orders also charge you most of (All of?) the cost of your entire chopper setup. "Why is slumming it with lovely budget basics charging me more per outing than the more expensive higher ammo capacity guns and deployables?... Oh, ooooh..." On the bright side, arming and armoring your chopper to the teeth is dirt cheap compared to engine upgrade costs. EDIT: Unrelated, my pie in the sky dream mechanic change would be dispatch missions to resupply the enemies with extra cigarettes. Because it always feels fun when a job goes so much smoother due to the enemy nicotine addiction. Section Z fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Nov 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 07:35
|
|
|
In It For The Tank posted:A way to balance tranqs against other playstyles would be to nerf them in two specific but logical ways: Guards not reacting to sleeping soldiers or getting tranqed is the biggest advantage for sure. If a downed guard or a bodyshot would cause a base wide caution mode, it would make tranqs much harder to use. Especially if guards start using helmets / face plates.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 07:37
|
|
|
Captain Hygiene posted:That's kinda what it felt like, I will never stop fultoning people left and right because it's one of the greatest joys I've had in a game, but I figured you probably don't have to lean into it that far. Glad I'm not the only one. I feel a bit spoiled because it rewards the slow, methodical way I've always approached the series. To be sure, a lot of that was about getting pesky guards out of the way so I could spend time shooting condiments or kicking the poo poo out of a magazine rack or whatever, but my "tactical CQC/interrogate/Fulton" approach just seemed pretty natural. I mostly save the tranq for when I get in trouble, can't think of the last time I needed an ammo or suppressor resupply, even after chaining a bunch of side ops together. Of course, the way THAT's broken is how ridiculously far away you can be when grabbing someone. I feel like previous games needed you to be right on top of guys to do the ol' "grab'n'stab."
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 08:03
|
|
|
I kinda wonder if instead of restricting the ability to extract soldiers, the amount of soldiers needed for the base was drastically reduced but also only certain enemies would actually help the base. Obviously this would change the dynamic of the base building drastically, but the idea would be that instead of having like hundreds of guys, you basically made a core of special soldiers which all have the special skills like gunsmith and such that enable more options for developing stuff or gameplay benefits. So you would scan a base, notice one guy gets marked as a special solder (Either due to different clothing, a special marker or even just binoculars telling you they got skills) and you just had to keep in mind to extract that dude while you could do whatever you want with the rest. It would also mean you don't run into situations like I did, where for ages you wonder why you are not getting any new arm upgrades to be unlocked, only to eventually realise that you fired the guy who had the necessary skill, and the only way to get it is to redo the mission he is in 
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 11:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 13:37 |
|
|
Momomo posted:I think an easier way to fix fultoning is to just limit how many times you can do it a mission. This creates a potential scenario where you use up all your fultons and then find someone you REALLY want but now can’t take. It would also mean that the best way to get soldiers is to grind them out in the open world, or maybe people will farm a mission that you can beat quickly. Either way the game becomes less fun
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2020 12:07
|
|