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Wanna look like a classy aviation stud to everyone on frequency? "Tower, he's burning more fuel than I am so how about I do some turns while he goes first?" I made some P-51 Mustang and Spitfire pilots very happy with that line at the KISM airport. Also it helps you brush up on wake turbulence avoidance 
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Jul 4, 2013 16:36
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AWSEFT posted:He burned more fuel waiting for you to land then you spent in the entire circuit around the pattern. Likely! MrYenko posted:Also, if CanForces are anything like the USAF, you won't even be allowed near an airplane when super-duper-VIP aircraft are around. The security precautions they take for AF1 nowadays border on ridiculous. They're actualy treated like any other traffic as far as ops go. I believe they flip over to UHF or something to talk to tower for security at low altitude over the city, but seem to be handled the same on Ground/TRACON/Centre. No groundstops or airspace restrictions either. Probably a bunch of behind the scenes stuffgoing on though. That being said, it was more a bad joke - us taxpayers would be footing that idle bill. Now, when AF1 comes to CYOW, good luck even driving to the airport. Animal posted:Wanna look like a classy aviation stud to everyone on frequency? Agreed, and I would have but was already on very short final with an issued landing clearance, and hadn't been watching the taxiway since we land super long on 32 as the FBO is at the 14 end of the 10k' runway. Fastest way out of his way was to put it down quick and near a taxiway and GTFO of his way on the ground.
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Jul 4, 2013 20:18
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CYYC 050031Z 02014G24KT 20SM TS BKN031CB BKN100 16/11 A2985 RMK CB6AC1 VIS NE 3 BLDU/LTNG NW-NE/MAMMAS ALQDS PRESRR SLP110 DENSITY ALT 4500FT Your momma's so fat she fills ALL the quadrants.
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Jul 5, 2013 01:56
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Anyone know the story on the volcano near Mexico city? Just had a guy go back to Detroit, so I assume it has to be pretty bad because, Detroit.
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Jul 5, 2013 16:59
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fknlo posted:Anyone know the story on the volcano near Mexico city? Just had a guy go back to Detroit, so I assume it has to be pretty bad because, Detroit. I'd take my chances with the ash, personally.
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Jul 5, 2013 17:07
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On the bright side DTW like everything "in Detroit" is nowhere near Detroit.
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Jul 5, 2013 17:22
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MrYenko posted:Also, if CanForces are anything like the USAF, you won't even be allowed near an airplane when super-duper-VIP aircraft are around. The security precautions they take for AF1 nowadays border on ridiculous. When AF1 is parked in ORD they let aircraft taxi right past it. http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1307/pdf/00166AD.PDF They normally park it in the scenic pad and let people taxi past on golf. This was recently too, the day after the 2012 presidential election in fact. Granted the whole show comes to a screeching halt every time POTUS is actually there. Oh and a friendly reminder: Don't be a dumb rear end and transmit with your call sign while the over speed warning is blaring in the background. Someone using a dot com callsign did this no less than 3 times in a 5 minute period on ZHU the other day. Unfortunately for them we had a fed in the jumpseat who seemed like the kind of guy looking for an excuse to violate someone.
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Jul 6, 2013 08:16
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KodiakRS posted:When AF1 is parked in ORD they let aircraft taxi right past it. http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1307/pdf/00166AD.PDF They normally park it in the scenic pad and let people taxi past on golf. This was recently too, the day after the 2012 presidential election in fact. Granted the whole show comes to a screeching halt every time POTUS is actually there. I remember being 200-300 feet from my gate when AF1 started moving on the other side of the airport. We were told it'd be 30 minutes and to stay put. Really? Wouldn't a plane in the gate be safer than a plane on a taxiway? Passengers were pretty upset. Wonder if it was an MEL causing that? If so, thats a very distracting problem. If not, how much are you willing to push it over the red line, how much faster are you really going to go, and how much time is it really going to save you? I remember the difference between .80 and .82 from ATL-HOU was <5 minutes (and a lot more fuel).
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Jul 6, 2013 14:28
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777 down in SFO. Details are coming in as I type this. Looks like it may have been survivable. http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/06/us/california-plane-incident/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 Edit: Looks like there are at least a significant number of survivors. Thank god. Live ATC archive. From SFO tower: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksfo/KSFO-Twr-Jul-06-2013-1800Z.mp3 KodiakRS fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 6, 2013 |
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Jul 6, 2013 20:34
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That looks like a writeoff, QuiteEasilyDone fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 6, 2013 |
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Jul 6, 2013 21:43
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QuiteEasilyDone posted:That looks like a writeoff, The news is being utterly incompetent so there's still hope that they just jumped the gun on this one.
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Jul 6, 2013 22:39
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Yeah I'm real curious about the details on this one. Early speculation looks like the plane may have touched down to early, hit some rocks behind the under run? Listening to that ATC clip is interesting. It seems like a trainee was working then the trainer took over.
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Jul 7, 2013 05:24
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In regards to the KSFO accident, is there anybody here who flies heavy jets who can tell us about learning to plan descents and energy management? I am a couple hundred hours into flying King Airs and this is probably the aspect of it that requires the most concentration. Specially on the King Air 100 which will not go down and slow down so you need to be well ahead of it or else you can end up right at the airport and too fast to get gear and flaps out. Is it a similar learning curve on large jets? I should mention, I say "in regards to the KSFO accident" because my speculation is that the plane ended up off profile and too slow, putting it in a tail low attitude short of the runway.
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Jul 7, 2013 05:34
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Somebody sent CNN a video clip of the crash taken by somebody across the bay. It's grainy, but with the nose high as it was, it almost looks like they stalled it into the ground, followed by a 270 degree airborne spin eerily reminiscient to United 232 in Sioux City before grinding to a halt.
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Jul 7, 2013 21:10
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CBJSprague24 posted:Somebody sent CNN a video clip of the crash taken by somebody across the bay. It's grainy, but with the nose high as it was, it almost looks like they stalled it into the ground, followed by a 270 degree airborne spin eerily reminiscient to United 232 in Sioux City before grinding to a halt. http://on.cnn.com/16Ykdsd The plane comes off the ground and looks like it nearly flips around before coming to a stop... looking at that video its truly amazing engineering that so many people survived. I'd love to hear more thoughts from Aviation goons after taking a look at that video.
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Jul 7, 2013 22:04
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cobra_64 posted:In regards to the KSFO accident, is there anybody here who flies heavy jets who can tell us about learning to plan descents and energy management? I am a couple hundred hours into flying King Airs and this is probably the aspect of it that requires the most concentration. Specially on the King Air 100 which will not go down and slow down so you need to be well ahead of it or else you can end up right at the airport and too fast to get gear and flaps out. Is it a similar learning curve on large jets? I wouldn't call the CRJ a "Heavy jet" but in my first few hundred hours I got caught out by this a few times. It was probably the hardest thing to get used to during my transition from the piston prop world. Even with spoilers it takes a few miles for the aircraft to slow from 250KIAS to 230KIAS (Vfe) if you're descending on glide slope. Once you're slow enough that you can start adding drag by dumping flaps things become significantly easier. It also helps if you slow down, then start descending. Another tip is to set up distances from the runway at which you want to be at a certain speed rather than trying to eyeball it. Breaking news: NTSB syas CVR and flight data recorder are indicating a last second attempt at a Go around. Edit: More breaking news: The pilots appear to have massively tooled up their visual approach and didn't attempt a go around until it was way too late. KodiakRS fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jul 7, 2013 |
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Jul 7, 2013 22:05
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In other news, that means that this falls into the category of a CFIT. Looks like some heads are going to roll in this case.
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Jul 7, 2013 23:43
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KodiakRS posted:
There are going to be some major questions regarding ab-initio training, and an overall degradation of fundamental skills coming out of this investigation. Probably also CRM. I really want to hear the voice recorder from that other plane that was holding short of the runway when this happened.
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Jul 7, 2013 23:44
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KodiakRS posted:Breaking news: NTSB syas CVR and flight data recorder are indicating a last second attempt at a Go around. Hey Kodiak and other ATP people, I read that the stick shaker activated approximately 4 seconds before impact. I assume that is way too late for a go-around, as even a Cat III-B ILS approach has a decision height of what, 50 feet to the ground? They weren't on the ILS as it was inop but was there anything they could have done when the stick shaker activated at that height? Should it be an immediate reaction to advance the throttles and call go around as soon as the stick shaker activates? Do you think that would have done anything at 4 seconds vs the 1.5 seconds that they did advance the throttles?
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Jul 8, 2013 00:49
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NTSB Twitter says they were under the desired approach speed & throttles were at idle. Hoo boy.
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Jul 8, 2013 01:07
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sellouts posted:Hey Kodiak and other ATP people, I read that the stick shaker activated approximately 4 seconds before impact. I assume that is way too late for a go-around, Depending on what's happening you can "go around" even after the wheels have touched down. On a normal approach 4 seconds before touchdown wouldn't be a problem. However on this approach they had the engines at idle (not normal for a jet) and were so slow that they were in what's known as the backside of the power curve which is a situation that takes a LOT of thrust or altitude to recover from. It remains to be seen when they actually increased thrust. The 7 second slow call, the 4 second shaker activation, or the 1.5 second go around call. Video of what happened when you try to recover a low/slow approach in a swept wing aircraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZL0x-gEDM8 sellouts posted:Should it be an immediate reaction to advance the throttles and call go around as soon as the stick shaker activates? Do you think that would have done anything at 4 seconds vs the 1.5 seconds that they did advance the throttles?
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Jul 8, 2013 02:26
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So this is indicating pilot error and not some random act of nature seeking vengeance on man?
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Jul 8, 2013 02:28
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Tommy 2.0 posted:So this is indicating pilot error and not some random act of nature seeking vengeance on man? With 90% certainty, yes.
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Jul 8, 2013 02:30
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I got a 747 add-on for FS98 as a kid, which featured all kinds of videos and behind-the-scenes stuff on the 747 produced with the help of Lufthansa. One of the clips I remember was a 747-200 performing a go-around at an altitude that had to be under 50 feet. I'm going to wait until I see the facts before I really make an educated response, but I wonder if any "Rules are written in blood" legislation/regulations, whether good or completely worthless, might come out of this in the US. I have visions of Chuck Schumer or an overzealous Californian politician somewhere rolling their hands in excitement, with Sully on speed dial.
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Jul 8, 2013 02:52
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CBJSprague24 posted:I got a 747 add-on for FS98 as a kid, which featured all kinds of videos and behind-the-scenes stuff on the 747 produced with the help of Lufthansa. One of the clips I remember was a 747-200 performing a go-around at an altitude that had to be under 50 feet. Less than 50' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWDOkmiJdHI and 747 for good measure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW7AbEwxmTw
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Jul 8, 2013 03:05
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Its too early to jump into conclusions as to what was going on in that cockpit, but I will throw this out there even though it might be a little politically incorrect: when I was a CFI, I had Asian students (as in, just got off a plane from Asia, not as in racially) who would have easily gone CFIT on a perfectly clear day if the automation was telling them to go there, unless I intervened. We have talked about this here, and I hate to be insensitive of other cultures, but the truth is that they are taught since childhood that individuality is a great evil. And so everything that comes with it, including initiative and adaptability, are to be frowned upon. By the time they are adults instruction is not just teaching something new, its basically a reprogramming, I could see through their eyes that their brain was going "DOES NOT COMPUTE" whenever I would tell them to throw The Book out the window in certain situations. You put someone like that in a heavy aircraft with a lot of inertia, in a visual approach with no glideslope, and pray that the person sitting on the other seat will have a different mindset. Right, The Slaughter?
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Jul 8, 2013 03:19
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Also in a statement by the airline, this was the PICs first landing into this airport with less than 50 hours on the type
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Jul 8, 2013 03:21
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Holy poo poo. Source?
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Jul 8, 2013 03:30
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KodiakRS posted:Depending on what's happening you can "go around" even after the wheels have touched down. On a normal approach 4 seconds before touchdown wouldn't be a problem. However on this approach they had the engines at idle (not normal for a jet) and were so slow that they were in what's known as the backside of the power curve which is a situation that takes a LOT of thrust or altitude to recover from. It remains to be seen when they actually increased thrust. The 7 second slow call, the 4 second shaker activation, or the 1.5 second go around call. Thanks! Aren't there some aircraft that prohibit go arounds once or before wheels are down? Maybe I was thinking of just company policy in some handbook I downloaded. And what you're saying about the engines being at idle make sense. I've flown (as a complete amateur) in an md-11 and md80 simulator before and the time it takes to spool from idle to 40% n1 seems to take as long as 40-95% n1. Less than 50 hours on type and first landing at the field. Yikes. (Per CNN.com animal) sellouts fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jul 8, 2013 |
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Jul 8, 2013 03:35
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Animal posted:Holy poo poo. Source? The NTSB Twitter tweeted lots of the facts in this thread.
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Jul 8, 2013 03:47
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sellouts posted:Thanks! Aren't there some aircraft that prohibit go arounds once or before wheels are down? Maybe I was thinking of just company policy in some handbook I downloaded. Its ok to go-around up until thrust reversers are deployed on the bigger boeings.
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Jul 8, 2013 03:59
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Animal posted:By the time they are adults instruction is not just teaching something new, its basically a reprogramming, I could see through their eyes that their brain was going "DOES NOT COMPUTE" whenever I would tell them to throw The Book out the window in certain situations. I spent two years teaching Chinese students, and ran into the exact same thing. In the later stages of training, I'll typically ask my students to perform a task on a flight that clearly isn't a good idea, in order to make sure they'll question someone in a position of authority. As an example, I'd ask them to perform a steep turn from slow flight, which is a textbook situation for a stall/spin to develop. Generally, most of my western students would realize that I'd asked something that was unsafe and refuse to do it, but a disturbingly high percentage of my Chinese students would try to perform the maneuver simply because I was an authority figure who had asked them to do something.
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Jul 8, 2013 04:50
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Animal posted:Its too early to jump into conclusions as to what was going on in that cockpit, but I will throw this out there even though it might be a little politically incorrect: when I was a CFI, I had Asian students (as in, just got off a plane from Asia, not as in racially) who would have easily gone CFIT on a perfectly clear day if the automation was telling them to go there, unless I intervened. We have talked about this here, and I hate to be insensitive of other cultures, but the truth is that they are taught since childhood that individuality is a great evil. And so everything that comes with it, including initiative and adaptability, are to be frowned upon. By the time they are adults instruction is not just teaching something new, its basically a reprogramming, I could see through their eyes that their brain was going "DOES NOT COMPUTE" whenever I would tell them to throw The Book out the window in certain situations. Also I literally had to punish them for not going around to get them to do it and even still they often wouldn't. A Chinese student go around, unprompted entirely by the instructor was almost unheard of. (However many occasions I grabbed the throttles and yoke and crammed and climbed to get us the hell out of there after student inaction would have led to a nasty crash...)
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Jul 8, 2013 07:47
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Animal posted:Wanna look like a classy aviation stud to everyone on frequency? We had a Cessna 152 turn base on Ibiza the other day while we where holding short of the runway in our 320 burning 700kg of jet fuel an hour. Pilot of the Cessna was a real bro and proposed the tower to make an orbit. Tower just blatantly refused and told him to continue approach 
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Jul 8, 2013 13:57
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Mikojan posted:We had a Cessna 152 turn base on Ibiza the other day while we where holding short of the runway in our 320 burning 700kg of jet fuel an hour. As a tower controller in a former life I can understand in certain situations.
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Jul 8, 2013 16:35
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Animal posted:Its too early to jump into conclusions as to what was going on in that cockpit, but I will throw this out there even though it might be a little politically incorrect: when I was a CFI, I had Asian students (as in, just got off a plane from Asia, not as in racially) who would have easily gone CFIT on a perfectly clear day if the automation was telling them to go there, unless I intervened. We have talked about this here, and I hate to be insensitive of other cultures, but the truth is that they are taught since childhood that individuality is a great evil. And so everything that comes with it, including initiative and adaptability, are to be frowned upon. By the time they are adults instruction is not just teaching something new, its basically a reprogramming, I could see through their eyes that their brain was going "DOES NOT COMPUTE" whenever I would tell them to throw The Book out the window in certain situations. Do their "bad habits" translate over to solo flight? I was cut off in the pattern one day by a student who happened to be Asian. I'd called left base and was preparing to turn final when I heard HIM call left base. Knowing he was inside me (based upon the fact that he was behind me and called so soon), I stayed on base, tipped the wing up to get a clearer view (C-172SP), and there he was. I put the flaps up, continued into the upwind, and hoped it didn't happen next time around. I'm not insinuating one group does it over another, but I was amazed that the guy pulled that even with me making all the required calls. And I'm slightly overzealous with my calls at non-controlled airports for just that reason.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:17
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Animal posted:Its too early to jump into conclusions as to what was going on in that cockpit, but I will throw this out there even though it might be a little politically incorrect: when I was a CFI, I had Asian students (as in, just got off a plane from Asia, not as in racially) who would have easily gone CFIT on a perfectly clear day if the automation was telling them to go there, unless I intervened. We have talked about this here, and I hate to be insensitive of other cultures, but the truth is that they are taught since childhood that individuality is a great evil. And so everything that comes with it, including initiative and adaptability, are to be frowned upon. By the time they are adults instruction is not just teaching something new, its basically a reprogramming, I could see through their eyes that their brain was going "DOES NOT COMPUTE" whenever I would tell them to throw The Book out the window in certain situations. Were you teaching Korean students, Chinese students, or students from all over Asia? I've heard the things you're saying about Chinese students but I wouldn't say that every Asian culture is the same as theirs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Also why is it such a big deal that it was his first landing at SFO with less than 50 hours? You don't switch to a new type and magically start with 1000+ hours, it has to start somewhere. And a runway is a runway is a runway. All of us here have flown plenty of new places without crashing.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:10
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Yeah, and surely there are different levels of difficulty for approaching certain airports. But a long rear end runway at sea level with no conflicting terrain and calm wind would not be my definition of a difficult runway to approach.
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Jul 9, 2013 03:16
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Rickety Cricket posted:Also why is it such a big deal that it was his first landing at SFO with less than 50 hours? You don't switch to a new type and magically start with 1000+ hours, it has to start somewhere. And a runway is a runway is a runway. All of us here have flown plenty of new places without crashing. How many takeoffs and landings does 50 hours in a long-haul airline translate to?
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Jul 9, 2013 03:23
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fordan posted:How many takeoffs and landings does 50 hours in a long-haul airline translate to? Well, if the trips were similar in duration to RKSI to KSFO, five takeoffs and almost five landings. http://skyvector.com/?ll=27.77688357227492,-169.93359375044906&chart=301&zoom=15&plan=A.RK.RKSI:A.K2.KSFO
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Jul 9, 2013 14:32
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