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Sail sucks and is bad, you have read it correctly. It is a death spiral with no ability to break out of it, once things get going. Alternatively if youre equally matched, good luck ever finishing.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:50
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I've barely used the Sail system (in a several year long game! (in which the players' flying ship features heavily!!)) but I think you're correct that, like many other niche-yet-baroque subsystems hidden in the rules chapter, it's just bad. I think the "easiest" thing to do would just be to make it resemble real combat more, in that you might give each ship a Defense value based on its maneuverability and its captain's Sail, have Positioning effectively work like a withering attack that allows you to build up momentum by stealing it from your enemy (but which increases the total momentum available in the ecosystem of the combat regardless) and have every other action work like a decisive attack/gambit.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:51
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Ferrinus posted:I've barely used the Sail system (in a several year long game! (in which the players' flying ship features heavily!!)) but I think you're correct that, like many other niche-yet-baroque subsystems hidden in the rules chapter, it's just bad. I think the "easiest" thing to do would just be to make it resemble real combat more, in that you might give each ship a Defense value based on its maneuverability and its captain's Sail, have Positioning effectively work like a withering attack that allows you to build up momentum by stealing it from your enemy (but which increases the total momentum available in the ecosystem of the combat regardless) and have every other action work like a decisive attack/gambit. I'm running a game set in the West that's going to feature naval combat pretty soon and this is basically my plan.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:21
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Because I like ships (see: Username, pfp) I'm going the maximalist route and completely rewriting sailing. It takes some inspiration from the existing mechanics, but is meant to make it feel more like, well, sailing narratives do, to me. Eventually I'll have a google doc to share I guess, and if it turns out well enough I might try to pull a Rand and put my sailing omnibus up on the Storyteller's Vault? In case anyone else wants an elaborate framework for differentiating oceanic lateen catamarans from caravels and ships of the line from treasure ships in a way that isn't just a pile of stats, but actually produces different in-game options. E: In my ideal Exalted Sailing and Craft would be comparably complicated, and neither would be as complicated as Craft is right now. Also, Wyld-Shaping Technique would be a fraction as involved as either of them, as opposed to how it is now. My priorities are not the original dev team's, clearly.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:37
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Joe Slowboat posted:pull a Rand I have entered the lexicon.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:46
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Rand Brittain posted:I have entered the lexicon. I'm very impressed by your ability to put together your martial arts, antagonist, and monster collections and have them look professional and do well on DriveThru, and would like to replicate that in a small way, because it would be cool to introduce some alternate sailing rules into the player base.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:52
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm very impressed by your ability to put together your martial arts, antagonist, and monster collections and have them look professional and do well on DriveThru, and would like to replicate that in a small way, because it would be cool to introduce some alternate sailing rules into the player base. Thanks much! The secret is:
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Jan 19, 2021 03:56
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I'll keep this all in mind!
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Jan 19, 2021 03:58
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... on a related note, does anyone remember the status of ships of the line in Ex3? They're very visible in the art, and I got the impression the devs gave up on insisting that Creation doesn't have square-rigged ships like that, but the stats in the core book lean towards triremes, junks, and earlier barques. I did, however, find the named rigging methods in Creation: The Bermuda rig is called the Abalone rig, the Chinese lug sail is called the Dragonwing rig (and I may conflate it with other lug rigging), and apparently the gaff rig is called Imperial. My plan was to use 'Imperial' for the square rigging of a ship of the line, if that is in fact a thing in the current Creation. Edit: I'll be adding at least the classic square lateen rig (historical trireme rig, and generally a good rig for a cheap dhow or some vikings - I'm conflating some things but the basic concept is straightforward, and none of the Savage Seas rigging lack spars at the foot of the sail, so it's an aesthetic addition), and the oceanic lateen (or crab claw) rig. I'm thinking "Hero's Rig" - due to association with ancient First Age ships, which could use much older and simpler rigs on scales that non-magical masts simply couldn't support - and "Claw Rig" because that's just what it's called IRL. Thanks! Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 07:23
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I'm only posting to say that I love what you're doing. If you put this stuff up, I'll buy it, and I haven't bought an Exalted book or supplement in ages. Of the handful of Exalted books I kept, Savage Seas is one of them. No wait, I lied, there's another thing. Joe Slowboat posted:
The devs had a policy "...not to give people bad rules just because they think they want them".
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Jan 20, 2021 00:06
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I think its still that Creation doesn't have ships of the line, it's more about zooming about for boarding actions and crashing into each other with rams than long lines blasting at each other because they don't have great anti-ship weaponry or even big enough ships to really take advantage of that sort of setup. They're visible in art because I think the art direction wasn't great and so they got Pirates of the Caribbean instead of the more appropriate trireme, see also the picture of the village with every hut filled with bright light as if lit by lightbulbs.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:50
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I actually went and got the unofficial Exalted discord's thoughts - definitely no ships of the line, but some pretty huge dragonwing rigged ships are what I've settled on - I'm going with the historical accounts of Zheng He's fleet, which (supposedly) had 500 crew on a given ship. Actual ship-of-the-line size megaships would be flagships for entire navies, even if not literally artifact ships, with Size 5 crews. That kind of nonsense is extremely Exalted to me. Also, Bermuda rig is getting de-emphasized compared to Savage Seas, while the crab claw and the lateen are getting more appreciation.
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Jan 20, 2021 03:34
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I love that someone is going full Master and Commander on this. I've never been super in to nautical adventures in RPGs, but "intensely detailed fantasy naval supplement" fits right in with the 1E supplements that went nuts on economics in Creation and other delightful Harnmaster-esque explorations of a fictional world. Definitely looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
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Jan 20, 2021 03:46
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Kestral posted:I love that someone is going full Master and Commander on this. I've never been super in to nautical adventures in RPGs, but "intensely detailed fantasy naval supplement" fits right in with the 1E supplements that went nuts on economics in Creation and other delightful Harnmaster-esque explorations of a fictional world. Definitely looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Thanks! We'll see what it looks like when I gets there; the intent is for the system elements to be fun but not hideously complicated. The account of boats in Creation that I hope to develop out of this is meant to be playable, after all. Savage Seas got a bit too detailed on the three rigs it did describe, I think one can do it with more economy and get a few more rigs in there. e: Current rigging options are, with particular mechanics mostly developed: (I am caricaturing these rigs a bit to make them stand out more in terms of gameplay) Dragonwing rig, aka junk rig, the most standard and reliable, used on rivers and seas alike. No special stresses, and once set you can pay less attention to it while it consistently produces drive. Also, very easy to reef. A 'safe' sail. Imperial rig, aka gaff rig, the more advanced rig favored by the Realm for faster ships. Less stable than a dragonwing, and less compatible with oars due to greater heel. Harder to reef, but more maneuverable. Western or Claw rig, aka crab claw rig, a very efficient sail that quickly gets up to speed, but puts strain on the ship and prefers a stable design like a catamaran to a single-hull vessel. Abelone rig, aka Bermuda rig, a surviving design from the First Age that requires materials not easily available for larger ships, due to needing a very high mast. A very effective fast sail for small ships, but unstable in high winds or other perils. Southern rig, aka lateen, a triangular sail with no lower spar, popular for small, inexpensive ships (cheaper and less complicated than Dragonwing, which takes battens). No special rules. Simple rig, or 'Hero's Sail' aka square rig with one sail. Cannot tack upwind, so cannot be your only means of propulsion. Often used as a cheap propulsion on war galleys. May just merge this with the lateen rig mechanically; has a limit on how large it can be. Possibly has a special rule that makes it a good fit for sorcerously conjured wind, and First Age ships sometimes just had a single huge sail like this wrought from magical materials. I think that's really more than enough rigging for sails (even before we get to oars, ships drawn by sea worms, human-powered paddlewheels, and the like). From here... hulls. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 05:20
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The basic problem with Sail that I'd really like to see addressed, before you even get to death spiral issues and all, is that it's a single-player game where the Sail Guy does the thing and everybody else is just along for the ride without the rules even bothering to acknowledge their presence. I'm not saying that the Sail rules should be able to handle a Dawn super-swimming between boats and performing single-man boarding actions, but no, actually, I am.
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Jan 20, 2021 05:48
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Roadie posted:The basic problem with Sail that I'd really like to see addressed, before you even get to death spiral issues and all, is that it's a single-player game where the Sail Guy does the thing and everybody else is just along for the ride without the rules even bothering to acknowledge their presence. Can I just say this is kind of the problem with Craft as written? edit: one of the problems
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Jan 20, 2021 05:54
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Roadie posted:The basic problem with Sail that I'd really like to see addressed, before you even get to death spiral issues and all, is that it's a single-player game where the Sail Guy does the thing and everybody else is just along for the ride without the rules even bothering to acknowledge their presence. Good news. The basic model of my Replacement Sail project, right now, is 'the more people doing things to keep the boat from exploding, the better' and there's rules for inter-boat archery, direct personal attacks on boats, etc. The goal is for working broadly with your captain is going to keep you alive and your boat moving, while not coordinating and just taking your pot-shots at the enemy is likely to be kind of useless. The basic trick is action economy: The crew (a battlegroup) get an action, the captain is going to want to give the crew an order with Command (Sail) to make sure the crew is doing the right action and doing it well. That means that every other shipboard concern (dealing with fires, attacking with siege weapons, pumping water, repairing damage, fixing miscellaneous problems that arise) rely on other PCs. Now, you can run that with one player, but you'll need NPCs to serve as first mate etc, and in the interest of gameability these other actions are primarily not Sail-based, though they might take penalties if you're bad on ships. So naval combat, and also naval pursuits and naval travel, involve the players as a whole operating the ship with the Sail expert leading the way and commanding the crew. The more your fellow players help out with containing the Stress your ship is under, the more you're free to build up tons of Drive and spend it on either going faster or fighting the enemy. We'll see how it turns out! E: In fact this was basically my impetus: A boat is not a suit of armor, it is not pants, it is a floating island with elaborate machines, no matter how simple. In Age of Empires, units are just 'in a boat' but in anything more granular, being on a boat should involve a sense of place and interaction with a larger thing that you all need to not catch fire, sink, or become immobilized. EE: Swimming from boat to boat is really hard, though, and doing a feat of strength from the water on a moving hull is even harder. Water Aspects are way more prepared to do it than your average Dawn, since they can swim extra fast and swing without water resistance. Jumping onto an enemy boat and trying to chop down their mainmast is totally viable, though! Still a Feat of Strength, and it works by giving the enemy ship Strain as damage, which can lead to loss of Stability which can lead to sinking. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 05:58
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Joe Slowboat posted:EE: Swimming from boat to boat is really hard, though, and doing a feat of strength from the water on a moving hull is even harder. Water Aspects are way more prepared to do it than your average Dawn, since they can swim extra fast and swing without water resistance. Jumping onto an enemy boat and trying to chop down their mainmast is totally viable, though! Still a Feat of Strength, and it works by giving the enemy ship Strain as damage, which can lead to loss of Stability which can lead to sinking. The swimming part was just an off-hand example, but also consider stuff like, say, "one sorcerer with Stormwind Rider and a battle group of demons vs a boat". Or even better, a three-way battle between those two and a giant kraken.
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Jan 20, 2021 06:20
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Roadie posted:The swimming part was just an off-hand example, but also consider stuff like, say, "one sorcerer with Stormwind Rider and a battle group of demons vs a boat". These should work, though I'll need to give ways to make giant monsters work with these boat rules. Fighting a leviathan (or Leviathan) is different from fighting another boat, but your own boat should be under the same broad stresses.
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Jan 20, 2021 06:27
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In a weird inversion of how the world is working that somehow fits with how the kickstarters have been run, I got my Lunars 3e book a full two days before I was told it was being shipped. They still haven't sent me a tracking number.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:12
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Quackles posted:Can I just say this is kind of the problem with Craft as written? Craft at least is mostly done either offscreen (big projects, working on artifacts) or is over super quickly (mundane projects). If I sit down and say 'hm, this village whose river got dried up by a river spirit could do fine with just a mundane aqueduct from the other nearby river' it becomes one roll and then a fade to black as my charms cut week long construction into a couple hours, unless something interesting happens to get in the way. With sail you have the explicit decker problem of 2-3 hours of literally no one else being able to do anything, watching you roll at each other like it's your own mini sessions.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:17
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bbcisdabomb posted:In a weird inversion of how the world is working that somehow fits with how the kickstarters have been run, I got my Lunars 3e book a full two days before I was told it was being shipped. They still haven't sent me a tracking number. Yeah, that's not uncommon with Onyx Path kickstarters, although the last two books I bought from them occurred in the usual order so I assumed their fulfiller had worked out the kinks. Right now I have a tracking number but it's sitting at pre-shipment, possibly because I ordered a book as well as a map.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:30
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KittyEmpress posted:With sail you have the explicit decker problem of 2-3 hours of literally no one else being able to do anything, watching you roll at each other like it's your own mini sessions. Which shouldn't be the case! Sailing a tall ship is intensely collaborative! Meanwhile, in Ex3 as written, you only get a set penalty if your crew is insufficiently trained as sailors, and a bonus if they're crack experts. This means that you can easily overcome the issue of sailing a massive junk with a crew of capuchin monkeys with no Sail as long as they can obey your orders generally, without Lunar charms. Or completely green landlubbers who have never seen a boat, if you prefer; the capuchins might be an easier crew to manage. Sail in Ex3 is really an intense string of disappointments, hence my Sail revamp project.
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Jan 25, 2021 20:08
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Joe Slowboat posted:sailing a massive junk with a crew of capuchin monkeys BRB making a new character
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Jan 25, 2021 21:40
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On another topic, I know I've gotten the idea that - and heard from others - that the archetypical mixed martial artist, like a character who fights bare-handed so they can mix a bunch of normally-incompatible styles all together, is actually pretty disappointing in play, and in particular feels a lot worse to do as a Solar than as a Lunar. For a while now, I've suspected that there is a quasi-defensible "fix" for this: You know Fists of Iron Technique? Here's how it reads: Type: Reflexive (note: it's specifically Supplemental Charms that are called out as incompatible with actions or Charms of other abilities unless otherwise stated) Effect: This Charm allows the Exalt to parry lethal damage with her bare hands. In addition, her bare-handed decisive strike does lethal damage and her withering damage ignores (Essence + Intimacy) soak. (note: no mention of brawling in specific) Arguably - ARGUABLY - Fists of Iron Technique could be activated, reflexively, to make your bare-handed strikes pierce a boatload of soak and deal lethal damage whether you're throwing haymakers or making puppet hands. Eh? Eh? Brawl's already got a lot of MA crossover as-is!
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Jan 26, 2021 02:16
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If we're gonna make Crane stylists start buying it we should probably also make it so you don't need a defining tie to Kickin' rear end to make it good.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:22
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Defining Principle: Crane Style's signature weapons look really stupid.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:24
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Jan 26, 2021 02:25
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Ferrinus posted:Defining Principle: Crane Style's signature weapons look really stupid. Defining Principle: It's all about looking cool.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:39
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In the Solars game I ran that wrapped up a year and change ago, the Dawn Caste's most consistently salient intimacy was Defining Principle: I am a badass.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:43
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And he was!
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Jan 26, 2021 02:50
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Ferrinus posted:Arguably - ARGUABLY - Fists of Iron Technique could be activated, reflexively, to make your bare-handed strikes pierce a boatload of soak and deal lethal damage whether you're throwing haymakers or making puppet hands. "In short—Martial Arts Charms are not compatible with Brawl, or any other combat Ability, unless they explicitly state otherwise. A bare-handed attack cannot benefit from both the maiming precision of Snake style’s Crippling Pressure-Point Strike and the devastating force of the Heaven Thunder Hammer" Yeah, you could argue that it only states that Martial Arts Charms are not compatible with Brawl and not the other way around and that the cross-over rule is only specifically mentioned under Supplemental and not Reflexive (Fists of Iron's parry lethal effect is Reflexive and thus covered by "reflexive only enhances static values of the ability it's from" rules, the other effect is clearly Supplemental, another win for the tag system), but the intent feels clear. Checking ask the devs gets us Vance stating a bunch of ways you can't do the thing and here's explicitly stating that charm combination of this fashion is a no for Solars. edit: "If a reflexive Charm is cross-compatible with other Abilities, it'll say, like Thunderclap Rush Attack." EthanSteele fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 21:43
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You're probably right, but this brings up a related question: can you use Serpentine Evasion and the Dodge Excellency against the same attack?
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Jan 27, 2021 22:15
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I'd say yes. I think my reasoning would be that Serpentine Evasion interacting with the static value of another ability (Dodge) is covered by the "unless they explicitly state otherwise"/ "unless otherwise indicated" part of Martial Arts/Reflexive rules. I'd also say using it for +1 Evasion to cause a tie and then using Drifting Leaf Elusion to win that tie counts for the purposes of the Mastery effect. You could even throw in Wind and Stones Defense from Brawl if you want for really big evasion. At least until you hit the die-limit from Charms!
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Jan 27, 2021 22:35
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I've returned at last, with Kingfisher Style, the solution for all your "I really want to play a Final Fantasy dragoon, but in Exalted" needs.
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Jan 29, 2021 03:49
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Ferrinus posted:On another topic, I know I've gotten the idea that - and heard from others - that the archetypical mixed martial artist, like a character who fights bare-handed so they can mix a bunch of normally-incompatible styles all together, is actually pretty disappointing in play, and in particular feels a lot worse to do as a Solar than as a Lunar. For a while now, I've suspected that there is a quasi-defensible "fix" for this: This is absolutely incorrect, by the way. Mixed Martial Arts build are insane bullshit that have a dozen abusive instant kill combos that break the game. Do you wanna do a barehanded murder of everyone within short range of you? Fire Dragon + Ebon Shadow got you. Do you want to grapple someone better than a brawl supernal? Mantis + Tiger means you now can savage someone for almost three times the normal damage. The real issues with MMA builds is that 1. you need to buy multiple abilities up and buy charms in them, and 2. you can't benefit from artifact weapon stats. Obviously MMA builds only work if you aren't taking multiple styles that rely on having their Form up. Things like Laughing Monster and Single Point rely on their form being active to be useful or neat at all. But most of the animal styles, the dragon styles, swaying grass, they all get nice little bennies but don't break without the Form.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:19
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Huh, do you need to buy dots in every Martial Art you learn separately? I thought you just had to buy the Martial Arts merit and then your Brawl became an MA score, and all martial arts used the same Ability?
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Jan 31, 2021 20:19
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Joe Slowboat posted:Huh, do you need to buy dots in every Martial Art you learn separately? I thought you just had to buy the Martial Arts merit and then your Brawl became an MA score, and all martial arts used the same Ability? Nope. Martial Arts is individual tiny charmsets with their own Abilities, as distinct from Craft, which is individual Abilities with one charmset, or Performance, which is one Ability with multiple charmsets, or Lore, which is one Ability, one charmset, and a hazy mother-may-I of "backgrounds" that determine whether you get to roll at all. What you might be thinking of is that if you favor Brawl, every Martial Arts Ability you buy (and their attendant charms) are also favored.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:31
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Ah, that is a significant downside to Martial Arts if you want to be an MMA fighter, though that's really only going to hurt Sidereals.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:35
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Yeah it's a big costly downside in exchange for allowing some super degenerate combinations that are not balanced with each other in mind.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:46
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