|
like if they had actually had a road to damascus moment they probably wouldnt be rushing into every thread about gamergate to try and convince goons that anti-gg people are totally just as bad as those gamergaters they hate so much.
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 03:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 02:38 |
|
|
Gum posted:being openly pro-gg on this website is social suicide lol ok guy
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 03:57
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:because she is whiny about a dark parody of 1950s. You know that parody/satire isn't a very good defense, right? You can create a satire but still gently caress it up, have it be poorly done satire, and be criticizable for that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 03:59
|
|
|
Ridonkulous posted:Was that before or after the no-named videogame developer harassed The Fine Young Capitalists? I'm sure she had nothing to do with the doxxing of TFYC member. find me a single place on the internet that uses the word 'gamergate' that was written before that developers ex made a post accusing her of sleeping with reviewers to get favourable reviews
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 03:59
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Yeah, so there's only one part of that that is anything worthwhile: Journalists. Who GGers should actually be supporting, but are instead attacking. Shouldn't their stance towards any journalist be extreme skepticism, not "support", if GG believes their stated goals? I don't really get the idea of wanting to support journalists if you think their previous work has been found to be deficient. Also, I don't know what you mean by support. And if you're drawing a distinction between people who are critics or reviewers primarily, and those who actually have access to interview developers and make their findings public.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:01
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Explain this? Gaming journalists are underpaid and rewarded for clicks. If a major gaming company makes a game with a black protagonist, I think there's a pretty good chance it'll be picked over with a fine tooth comb for anything that could be interpreted as racism. This could be stuff that gets deliberately misinterpreted, innocent mistakes, or just adding a racial bent to the fact most game protagonists tend to be violent assholes to begin with. While the gaming industry seems to be pretty used to accusations of sexism, it wouldn't surprise me if even a major developer or publisher would shy away from the chance of being accused of racism. I imagine individual developers would be even more concerned. No one wants to risk their job, even if they support diversity. The media needs to be willing to assume goodwill, or at least investigate an issue thoroughly before making claims, and I don't see that happening in the current climate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:03
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Somehow, the idea that you had respect for the organization before this doesn't ring completely true. I've never considered Sarkeesian an sjw personally, though she was obviously being pushed by them. Aside from the "we bombed japan back to traditional values" and the flubb in her hitman video I didnt have a problem with her. a professional victim is anyone who uses either real or imagined plight to gain money. that pizza shop, the guy with drug problems at the gas station that just need a few bucks for the cab etc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:04
|
|
|
CaptainFish posted:Shouldn't their stance towards any journalist be extreme skepticism, not "support", if GG believes their stated goals? No? Why would that be the case? quote:I don't really get the idea of wanting to support journalists if you think their previous work has been found to be deficient. They think all games journalists have ethical problems? Why? And do they want to just destroy all games journalism, or make it better? Do they really find no journalists good? quote:Also, I don't know what you mean by support. And if you're drawing a distinction between people who are critics or reviewers primarily, or those who actually have access to interview developers and make their findings public. What I mean is that the big studios like GG. They have no problem with it. They get to do whatever the hell they want, GGers go after the journalists that criticize the big studios, and the only winner are the studios. The majority of the journalists that GGers go after appear to be the indie ones--totally coincidentally, I'm sure, the ones making criticisms about diversity in games. Adventure Pigeon posted:Gaming journalists are underpaid and rewarded for clicks. If a major gaming company makes a game with a black protagonist, I think there's a pretty good chance it'll be picked over with a fine tooth comb for anything that could be interpreted as racism. This could be stuff that gets deliberately misinterpreted, innocent mistakes, or just adding a racial bent to the fact most game protagonists tend to be violent assholes to begin with. Seriously, this sounds amazingly paranoid. quote:While the gaming industry seems to be pretty used to accusations of sexism, it wouldn't surprise me if even a major developer or publisher would shy away from the chance of being accused of racism. It would surprise the hell out of me, because that's exactly what they're being accused of for not having black protaganists. quote:I imagine individual developers would be even more concerned. No one wants to risk their job, even if they support diversity. The media needs to be willing to assume goodwill, or at least investigate an issue thoroughly before making claims, and I don't see that happening in the current climate. Again, this sounds totally paranoid. It doesn't resemble the way things operate in the gaming industry at all, in any way. There are games with black protagonists, female protagonists. They get scrutinized and examined--for example, the black characters in Saints Row IV. It doesn't wind up with some sort of doom scenario that you're hinting at. You basically have managed to say that the game studios would totally be into making black characters, really they would, but those darn diversity advocates ruin it because they'd use any excuse to call them racist. This sounds both paranoid and makes no sense, because they already are being called racist for not representing minority and female characters, and black characters, where they appear, may be criticized but not in some insane way that you're talking about that would make a major studio quail. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jul 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:04
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:Gaming journalists are underpaid and rewarded for clicks. If a major gaming company makes a game with a black protagonist, I think there's a pretty good chance it'll be picked over with a fine tooth comb for anything that could be interpreted as racism. This could be stuff that gets deliberately misinterpreted, innocent mistakes, or just adding a racial bent to the fact most game protagonists tend to be violent assholes to begin with. While the gaming industry seems to be pretty used to accusations of sexism, it wouldn't surprise me if even a major developer or publisher would shy away from the chance of being accused of racism. I imagine individual developers would be even more concerned. No one wants to risk their job, even if they support diversity. The media needs to be willing to assume goodwill, or at least investigate an issue thoroughly before making claims, and I don't see that happening in the current climate. Just look at how well "Mechanical Apartheid" went over.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:06
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:This wasn't an answer to the question I asked, though. I have absolutely no idea, but if I had to guess, writing five tweets that are barely three sentences is a god-awful critique. You don't do any justice to the thing you're critiquing on and people are bound to make assumptions on what you mean because there is nowhere near enough information to get a full picture of what you are talking about. It is counter-productive. Why can't you throw up a thoughtful twit-longer? Or something that makes no room for misinterpretation and explains your opinion? I'm not asking for a cited essay here, but you can put more thought into it than a couple of tweets. Dapper_Swindler posted:because she is whiny about a dark parody of 1950s. I mean, you can still be whiny in essay form. For me, I'm left with more questions than answers. So I just shrug and ignore it because it is really too little to form an opinion on and really not worth analyzing. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jul 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:06
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:I have absolutely no idea, but if I had to guess, writing five tweets that are barely three sentences is a god-awful critique. You don't do any justice to the thing you're critiquing on and people are bound to make assumptions on what you mean because there is nowhere near enough information to get a full picture of what you are talking about. It is counter-productive. Why can't you throw up a thoughtful twit-longer? Or something that makes no room for misinterpretation and explains your opinion? I'm not asking for a cited essay here, but you can put more thought into it than a couple of tweets. Sure, you can. Or you can throw up the tweets and let your audience research the issue and come to their own conclusions. I don't think that sort of twitter journalism is great but it seems like a weird thing to lose your poo poo over. Uncle Wemus posted:Just look at how well "Mechanical Apartheid" went over. Yeah, that totally harmed Deus Ex and Eidos, people are losing their jobs all over the place. Oh wait, they're not, and they're defending their statement. I think it's in really poor taste, but they're basically claiming that they're treating the issue seriously so if they do a good job, that's a great defense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:13
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:
So the "mechanical apartheid" response was made up? Or all the recent instances of mass social media outrage destroying peoples' lives? If you were told that there're people who'll be judging your very public work and will gleefully destroy your life if they find a good instance of something that can be interpreted as wrongthink, you'd be an idiot not to be paranoid. They're able to defend the statement because it was a black developer that came up with the term. If it had been a white developer, it wouldn't surprise me if they had lost their job.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:13
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:So the "mechanical apartheid" response was made up? Do you understand that 'apartheid' is a way charged term, and is in no way related to your claim that a black protagonist would be picked over with a fine toothed comb for any form of racism? Seriously, you don't get that? It's completely appropriate to go "What the gently caress, apartheid, really?" Just as it was appropriate to look askance at Bioshock Infinite and it's bizarre-rear end treatment of slavery. quote:Or all the recent instances of mass social media outrage destroying peoples' lives? If you were told that there're people who'll be judging your very public work and will gleefully destroy your life if they find a good instance of something that can be interpreted as wrongthink, you'd be an idiot not to be paranoid. Okay, well, have fun with that. Weirdly, people are still out there making sexist and racist stuff and not being destroyed. Very occasionally, someone really really fucks up and says something way over the line and pays a bad price for it--and many times, I think that's lovely. But this has nothing to do with your bizarre and incoherent claims. Again, the studios are already being called racist for not having diversity in games, so your explanation really doesn't make any sense. It really doesn't. In addition, there are black protagonists in games, and yet they haven't been picked over in the way you're saying and people haven't lost their jobs over them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:16
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Do you understand that 'apartheid' is a way charged term, and is in no way related to your claim that a black protagonist would be picked over with a fine toothed comb for any form of racism? Seriously, you don't get that? It's completely appropriate to go "What the gently caress, apartheid, really?" Just as it was appropriate to look askance at Bioshock Infinite and it's bizarre-rear end treatment of slavery. It's a charged term, but it's probably one that a black African can use to describe his contribution to a game, especially if he's relating it to his own experiences. I think your statement here illustrates just how easy it is to consider a statement negatively and without context when it suits your narrative.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:19
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:I have absolutely no idea, but if I had to guess, writing five tweets that are barely three sentences is a god-awful critique. You don't do any justice to the thing you're critiquing on and people are bound to make assumptions on what you mean because there is nowhere near enough information to get a full picture of what you are talking about. It is counter-productive. Why can't you throw up a thoughtful twit-longer? Or something that makes no room for misinterpretation and explains your opinion? I'm not asking for a cited essay here, but you can put more thought into it than a couple of tweets. the irony is 'twitter without the character limit' is tumblr, and im pretty sure gamergaters arent too fond of that place either
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:20
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:It's a charged term, but it's probably one that a black African can use to describe his contribution to a game, especially if he's relating it to his own experiences. I think your statement here illustrates just how easy it is to consider a statement negatively and without context when it suits your narrative. Why are you so hung up on the fact that a black Africa can say "apartheid" but a white person cannot? What other words do you believe a black African could say that a white couldn't?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:22
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Sure, you can. Or you can throw up the tweets and let your audience research the issue and come to their own conclusions. I don't think that sort of twitter journalism is great but it seems like a weird thing to lose your poo poo over. I'm not, I just think they are counter-productive. I also don't have an opinion besides that because I'd be assuming too much. I guess they're more for her fans and such. EDIT: Gum posted:the irony is 'twitter without the character limit' is tumblr, and im pretty sure gamergaters arent too fond of that place either True, but she could use her website. Just tweet: 'Troubling issues in Fallout Shelter (link to blog goes here)' Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jul 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:23
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:It's a charged term, but it's probably one that a black African can use to describe his contribution to a game, especially if he's relating it to his own experiences. I think your statement here illustrates just how easy it is to consider a statement negatively and without context when it suits your narrative. I didn't consider it negatively, though. I said it's a charged term, that makes you go "What the gently caress, apartheid, really?" You interpret that as a 'negative' reaction, but it means that they're setting their sights high, they're saying "We're going to deal with this huge, important social issue, we're taking it seriously". If they gently caress it up, of course they'll get criticism for that. If they don't, if they actually make good commentary on apartheid through the game, that'll be rad. I don't think you realize how insanely paranoid you sound. Your explanation also makes no sense because the lack of black protagonists is not a new thing, it is in no way a reaction to scrutiny of racism, it is the way things have always been. Searching to find a black protagonists--and goddamn, it's sad how hard they are to find--I found Freddie in Valiant Hearts. Can you find me people picking it over for any sign of racism and pillorying the makers of the game, please?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:26
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:I didn't consider it negatively, though. I said it's a charged term, that makes you go "What the gently caress, apartheid, really?" You interpret that as a 'negative' reaction, but it means that they're setting their sights high, they're saying "We're going to deal with this huge, important social issue, we're taking it seriously". If they gently caress it up, of course they'll get criticism for that. If they don't, if they actually make good commentary on apartheid through the game, that'll be rad. But that wasn't the reaction? The reaction to the term was instantly negative. Nobody waited for it to shake out. Moviebob even said something along the lines of: 'you don't use apartheid in your robot punching game'. There was a backlash against it and people didn't think it should be used at all. EDIT:  I mean I was as surprised as you are people couldn't open a dictionary and look under the number '2', but the reaction was not 'wait and see' it was 'burn him, specifically the guy who wrote it'. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jul 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:29
|
|
|
call me crazy but i also dont think you are going to get a serious and intelligent discussion on apartheid from a robot punching game
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:33
|
|
|
Gum posted:call me crazy but i also dont think you are going to get a serious and intelligent discussion on apartheid from a robot punching game Probably not (most game writing is garbage), but you also make it look like you can't read the dictionary. Turn down the outrage spigot, maybe people will care if it is actually lovely instead of thinking you are illiterate. When it comes out and its bad, you've already blown your load and then nobody gives a poo poo. Obviously not you specifically, but you get my point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:35
|
|
|
At least it's not "Angry Birds: Mechanical Apartheid" Besides, games are art and art can talk about serious issues. Didn't people want serious and mature things in video games?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:38
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:Probably not (most game writing is garbage), but you also make it look like you can't read the dictionary. Turn down the outrage spigot, maybe people will care if it is actually lovely instead of thinking you are illiterate. When it comes out and its bad, you've already blown your load and then nobody gives a poo poo. Obviously not you specifically, but you get my point. so its a crazy and irrational position to take even though you think they're probably going to end up being proved right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:39
|
|
The key element to understanding how this nonsense operates is to look at its endgoals. What is the idealized behavior to avoid being a drat dirty dyed-hair devil?    That is, the ideal woman gamer is one who is not part of "outrage culture", that is, she is emotionally dead inside, unable to feel anger or happiness or sadness. Her face is a mask, unmoving. She's practically a zombie. The final form of submissiveness, someone who won't even make any disconcerting noises when you ejaculate inside of her. Also, virginal and pure. The bad gamer is one that cares. One that has emotions. One that could gently caress instead of being hosed. So how do you counter this propaganda? As I remarked earlier, anarchist tactics. You simply behave in a ridiculous fashion that encourages stupid behavior on the part of your opponent. One good starting point (very much not safe for work or public spaces!): http://i.imgur.com/Nsonmkq.jpg That is, reverse the whole thing and leave them confused. Let the freak within take over.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:42
|
|
|
i forgot that gamergaters were so desperate to find a woman who agreed with them that they invented one
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:46
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:I didn't consider it negatively, though. I said it's a charged term, that makes you go "What the gently caress, apartheid, really?" You interpret that as a 'negative' reaction, but it means that they're setting their sights high, they're saying "We're going to deal with this huge, important social issue, we're taking it seriously". If they gently caress it up, of course they'll get criticism for that. If they don't, if they actually make good commentary on apartheid through the game, that'll be rad. You're getting pretty insulting at this point when I've been nothing but civil. For someone who claims to be an expert on persuading people, I'd hope you'd at least know the importance of reciprocating courtesy. Further, you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that the tendency towards outrage might discourage people from doing anything socially innovative. What I've done is offer an explanation other than "they're racist as hell" for why major developers have not introduced more black main characters, when many of their customers are black. If you're trying to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative, then perhaps you'd be happier somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:52
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:You're getting pretty insulting at this point when I've been nothing but civil. For someone who claims to be an expert on persuading people, I'd hope you'd at least know the importance of reciprocating courtesy. Further, you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that the tendency towards outrage might discourage people from doing anything socially innovative. What I've done is offer an explanation other than "they're racist as hell" for why major developers have not introduced more black main characters, when many of their customers are black. If you're trying to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative, then perhaps you'd be happier somewhere else. do you have an actual response for him or just feigned offence?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:54
|
|
|
Gum posted:so its a crazy and irrational position to take even though you think they're probably going to end up being proved right? I think it is far more likely it will end up being mediocre, but to pretend they are using the first definition instead of the second (which means 'segregation on grounds other than race') is disingenuous and looking for something to be outraged at. And yes, I believe it is better to wait and see.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:55
|
|
|
uhh is that a cartoon little girl with a massive penis really
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:56
|
|
|
A Deus Ex game that tackles Apartheid sounds very interesting and compelling. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:57
|
|
|
hwordhan posted:A Deus Ex game that tackles Apartheid sounds very interesting and compelling. I thought Deus Ex didn't explore anything deeper than "robot punching."
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 04:58
|
|
|
Gum posted:do you have an actual response for him or just feigned offence? I gave him an example of recent outrage. He ignored it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:02
|
|
|
Gum posted:do you have an actual response for him or just feigned offence? Telling people they shouldn't be offended is pretty lame, dude.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:03
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:I gave him an example of recent outrage. He ignored it. "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are."
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:03
|
|
|
Let us English posted:I thought Deus Ex didn't explore anything deeper than "robot punching." After all I guess ethics in journalism are a far more pressing issue than advancing this beautiful medium we do all so much enjoy. hwordhan fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jul 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:06
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:I think it is far more likely it will end up being mediocre, but to pretend they are using the first definition instead of the second (which means 'segregation on grounds other than race') is disingenuous and looking for something to be outraged at. And yes, I believe it is better to wait and see. im guessing you might want to have a word with this guy then Adventure Pigeon posted:It's a charged term, but it's probably one that a black African can use to describe his contribution to a game, especially if he's relating it to his own experiences. I think your statement here illustrates just how easy it is to consider a statement negatively and without context when it suits your narrative.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:06
|
|
|
i mean yeah, i agree that adventure pigeon is looking for something to be outraged at, but i dont think thats what you had in mind
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:08
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:"Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." I agree, but focus on things other than Africans using their life experiences in the things they make, because otherwise you look silly and discredit yourself. Gum posted:i mean yeah, i agree that adventure pigeon is looking for something to be outraged at, but i dont think thats what you had in mind Actually, I'm just feeling kind of tired at this point. In retrospect, the gamergate thread was probably not the best place to attempt any serious, civil discussion, but that's a lesson I'll just have to try to take to heart.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:14
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:I agree, but focus on things other than Africans using their life experiences in the things they make, because otherwise you look silly and discredit yourself. If you use the phrase "outrage culture", you don't agree, actually.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 02:38 |
|
|
Obdicut posted:Yeah, that totally harmed Deus Ex and Eidos, people are losing their jobs all over the place. Oh wait, they're not, and they're defending their statement. I think it's in really poor taste, but they're basically claiming that they're treating the issue seriously so if they do a good job, that's a great defense. I didn't find the term being used in poor taste, the specific initial delivery (a tweet) was pretty much botched marketing 101 but at the same time they're pretty much using apartheid by its definition from what the writer/devs have said/shown off. I'm still confused how most of the stuff being discussed and the focus on various people by the GamerGate organizational hubs have anything to do with improving the ethical standards of games journalism as it was originally stated by the "movement."
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:17
|
|