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Darko posted:Clone Wars cartoon attempts to explore this a bit more. Everyone becomes one with the force at the end, but you have to go through a spiritual process beforehand to retain any self - it's more than just "surrendering" in that. This was all done to attempt to make any of that make any sense. I don't think TCW can rightly be considered "EU" in the sense that you mean it. It's as much a manifestation of Lucas's "vision" as anything else. The movies should of course be able to stand on their own, but when it comes to understanding them better I think TCW is just as valid a source. According to Lucas, Obi-Wan and Yoda helped Anakin to become a Force Ghost when he was in the twilight realm between light and death. But that's neither in the films nor in TCW, so you can take it for whatever it's worth. In any case, people are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the "power" the Jedi wield when they become Force Ghosts. It isn't a contradiction in their philosophy; in order to achieve that state, they have to genuinely let go of all their selfish desires and attachments. The Force "allows" them the power to retain their identities because they've reached a spiritual state of mind which precludes them from ever abusing it for their own selfish ends. Obi-Wan is still, in a sense, Obi-Wan, with all his thoughts and opinions, which is why he still counsels Luke to kill Vader. He's ultimately wrong, but his opinion on the matter is coming from a genuine, unselfish place, so it's allowed to stand. On the other hand, Dave Filoni, the supervising director of The Clone Wars who for years was basically Lucas's protege, thinks Obi-Wan may have had the same goal as Yoda, and only said what he did because it was the will of the Force that Luke make the right choice without prompting. I'm not sure there's a lot of support for this interpretation, but it's something to consider. Vintimus Prime posted:I just wished that Lucas would have actually filmed Hayden, instead of taking footage of a costume fitting with Hayden. I can't recall if they just stitched his head digitally up Shaw's body or if the full shot is Hayden. Would have come off a bit more natural. I thought he was actually being filmed for publicity images. If so, that's the exact same thing that happened with Sebastian Shaw. He didn't think he was being filmed for a scene in the movie either. Bongo Bill posted:Timothy Zahn's interpretation of the Force is notably mechanistic compared to the very mystical interpretation George Lucas seems to favor, and most of the EU followed suit. Parts of it manage to present an interesting contrast. In the films, people who believe midichlorian counts over their own senses are unjustified; in the books, they are justified. This is why the EU had to go. That manifestly has literally nothing to do with why the EU was de-canonized, actually. Must we have the midi-chlorian argument again? sassassin posted:I would disagree that the prequels make the powers any less symbolic. Dooku can only shoot lightning out of one hand, as opposed to Palpatine's two, because Dooku's power is only a pale imitation of Palpatine's. That's as far as I'd go with the symbolism myself, but your interpretation isn't invalid by any means. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 01:45 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 01:35
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Dooku's flashy nonsense demonstrates that the dark side is a bunch of flashy nonsense. Remote choking people and shooting lightning are ultimately banal in a universe with robots and lasers. The true power of the dark side is being able to kill people without getting up. Big loving deal. You spent your life learning space wizardry to do what any rear end in a top hat with a blaster can do.
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May 16, 2014 01:45
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PeterWeller posted:Dooku's flashy nonsense demonstrates that the dark side is a bunch of flashy nonsense. Remote choking people and shooting lightning are ultimately banal in a universe with robots and lasers. The true power of the dark side is being able to kill people without getting up. Big loving deal. You spent your life learning space wizardry to do what any rear end in a top hat with a blaster can do. Considering how useless robots and blasters are against experienced Force users, you need something else to kill them. So it seems as though the power of the Dark Side is mainly for killing other Force users.
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May 16, 2014 01:50
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PeterWeller posted:Dooku's flashy nonsense demonstrates that the dark side is a bunch of flashy nonsense. Remote choking people and shooting lightning are ultimately banal in a universe with robots and lasers. The true power of the dark side is being able to kill people without getting up. Big loving deal. You spent your life learning space wizardry to do what any rear end in a top hat with a blaster can do. Except the dark side isn't a bunch of flashy nonsense. Its physical power is very real, although spiritually empty. If it was worthless, turning down the power and choosing the light wouldn't be much to brag about. Sith lightning is much better than a blaster. If you're proficient enough with it, a lightsaber can't block it like it can a blaster bolt. And what's more, it allows you to suck the very soul out of your enemy with your bare hands, giving you a sadistic pleasure in victory which you could never achieve with any other weapon. And there's absolutely no defense in the universe against remote choking, unless, presumably, you're a fellow Force adept. But the greatest power of the dark side is being able to use it to subjugate others to your will. That's the main root of its evil, in fact. The problem with that is people will eventually turn on you; "the tighter your grip" and all that. The Death Star really was powerful. It really could destroy planets. But it still fell before a community of people working together in the pursuit of freedom, because they will always find a way, however unlikely it seems. Lobok posted:Considering how useless robots and blasters are against experienced Force users, you need something else to kill them. So it seems as though the power of the Dark Side is mainly for killing other Force users. Except the Jedi Order was almost entirely undone by a bunch of ordinary clone soldiers with blasters, not any literal dark side powers. Order 66 is the ultimate expression of the dark side, hence its (almost) religiously significant numbering. It represents the power of the dark side to compel good people to do bad things. However, this is a mostly meaningless distinction, given that dark side Force powers are simply physical manifestations of larger thematic ideas. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 02:08 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 01:58
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Lobok posted:Considering how useless robots and blasters are against experienced Force users, you need something else to kill them. So it seems as though the power of the Dark Side is mainly for killing other Force users. They wiped out the Jedi order with robots and blasters.
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May 16, 2014 02:07
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PeterWeller posted:They wiped out the Jedi order with robots and blasters. Clones with blasters wiped out the Jedi, and mostly did it by suddenly and without warning shooting them in the backs after spending years gaining their trust. It took a lot of work and planning to punk the Jedi.
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May 16, 2014 02:11
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Clones with blasters wiped out the Jedi Didn't even need the robots. You're missing the point. As impressive as it is, it's just a bunch of bullshit that makes you a better rear end in a top hat.
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May 16, 2014 02:15
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PeterWeller posted:Didn't even need the robots. Isn't that the point, though? You said it yourself, it makes you a better rear end in a top hat. That's real. Dooku is doing something when he blasts Anakin with lightning. The dude was completely incapacitated* long enough that Dooku was able to get within a split second of owning Obi-Wan to death. Do you think that could have happened if he just pulled out a little blaster right then and there and shot at it Anakin? I don't know where people are getting the idea that Dooku's display of power was somehow wimpy and ineffectual. In comparison to Palpatine's, yeah, of course it was. But why would you expect a secondary villain to be just as menacing as the primary one? *(And, as an interesting aside, you might note that this means Anakin knows something of what Luke is going through when the latter gets blasted by lightning in RotJ.)
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May 16, 2014 02:31
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PeterWeller posted:They wiped out the Jedi order with robots and blasters. Outnumbering them by how many? Fists are useless against a person with a pistol but send 50 unarmed people at one guy with a pistol...
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May 16, 2014 02:33
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Qui Gon Jin learns, afters hes dead, how to make Yoda remember him?
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May 16, 2014 02:39
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Quite a few Jedi eluded the army during the Purge and were instead hunted down by Darth Vader personally or one of his specialist subordinates. One such Jedi will be a main character in Rebels, and one such subordinate will be a villain. Another one was Obi-Wan Kenobi, who managed to escape Anakin too by hiding on the one planet that guy hates the most. The ability to do sweet backflips, choke people from across vast distances, or see the future is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.
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May 16, 2014 02:43
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Benedick Cuckold posted:Isn't that the point, though? You said it yourself, it makes you a better rear end in a top hat. That's real. Dooku is doing something when he blasts Anakin with lightning. The dude was completely incapacitated* long enough that Dooku was able to get within a split second of owning Obi-Wan to death. Do you think that could have happened if he just pulled out a little blaster right then and there and shot at it Anakin? I don't know where people are getting the idea that Dooku's display of power was somehow wimpy and ineffectual. In comparison to Palpatine's, yeah, of course it was. But why would you expect a secondary villain to be just as menacing as the primary one? Nah, I'm not saying it's ineffective. I'm saying it's ultimately pointless. So it makes you a more flashy and effective killer. So what? You have loving magic powers and you use them to do the same poo poo that any jerk with a gun can do, just better. It's so simple minded and banal. When Dooku shoots force lightning, it's no longer unique and climactic. You're reminded that it's just another nasty trick, and you become less impressed by the Emperor's powers and the whole force lightning schtick. And ultimately you should be unimpressed by the dark side's powers because they are a wasteful and pointless use of power.
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May 16, 2014 02:46
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Why is this painting blue? It's obviously because the brush had blue paint on it. You're overthinking things.
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May 16, 2014 02:49
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I love that scene in the series. Yoda: "I must be hallucinating!" Hallucination of Qui-Gonn: "No, you aren't! It's me!" Yoda: "Okay!"
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May 16, 2014 02:54
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zVxTeflon posted:Qui Gon Jin learns, afters hes dead, how to make Yoda remember him? Until the end of the prequels, Yoda is clouded by the dark side. Only a humbled Yoda can use the light side of the force to speak with ghosts that don't exist.
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May 16, 2014 02:55
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Clearly the Force wanted the Jedi wiped out, otherwise Palpatine would not have been so utterly successful in doing so.
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May 16, 2014 05:00
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Benedick Cuckold posted:I don't think TCW can rightly be considered "EU" in the sense that you mean it. It's as much a manifestation of Lucas's "vision" as anything else. Personally I don't see the value in trying to decipher Lucas' vision. I prefer to read the actual films. Luke brings balance to the force by directly disobeying the wishes of his ghostly companion. How can this ghost then be considered 'one with the force' unless the force is playing some reverse psychology game with the guy? He listens to himself rather than the echoing voices of his forebears and progress is made, and the natives have a cannibalistic feast.
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May 16, 2014 07:44
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Whenever I read about "Lucas' Vision" I picture this.
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May 16, 2014 07:54
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I really disliked that Dooku had force lightning and that Palpatine ever used it in the prequels. Because (if the prequels were good...) you could still watch the movies 1-6 and get to the end of Jedi and feel the shock with Luke as he realizes just how hosed he is because the Emperor is so much more powerful than he is because lightning literally comes out of his fingertips. Further, then it could be more of Yoda underestimating the dark side (supporting the notion that he was defeated and not just lost his 1v1 because he ran out of mana) and then Luke's victory eventually comes really because Anakin was redeemed which is the point of the drat story. Because otherwise why wouldn't he in the (months?) of training Luke on Degobah go 'oh btw he might try to zap you, just put your hand up and deflect it like so lol'
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May 16, 2014 11:39
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hhhat posted:I really disliked that Dooku had force lightning and that Palpatine ever used it in the prequels. Because (if the prequels were good...) you could still watch the movies 1-6 and get to the end of Jedi and feel the shock with Luke as he realizes just how hosed he is because the Emperor is so much more powerful than he is because lightning literally comes out of his fingertips. Are you also annoyed that we see that Anakin becomes Vader, ruining the surprise in Empire? You're not supposed to watch the prequels first.
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May 16, 2014 12:44
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Can we talk about how awesome Machete Order is now? Because Machete Order is awesome.
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May 16, 2014 13:51
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PeterWeller posted:Nah, I'm not saying it's ineffective. I'm saying it's ultimately pointless. So it makes you a more flashy and effective killer. So what? You have loving magic powers and you use them to do the same poo poo that any jerk with a gun can do, just better. It's so simple minded and banal. What about when Vader remotely chokes out that guy on the other ship in ESB?
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May 16, 2014 14:39
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Hbomberguy posted:I love that scene in the series. Where'd this clone army come from? We don't know! Someone who doesn't exist ordered it ten years ago! Okay!
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May 16, 2014 14:47
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sassassin posted:Are you also annoyed that we see that Anakin becomes Vader, ruining the surprise in Empire? If the story really is about the redemption of Vader which has been stated many times by the king himself, then the end of that story is episode 6. Or you can look at how they're numbered for a more obvious reference. I think they are supposed to be watched 'in order' ... And yeah... That kills all the surprises in 5 and 6. Could it have been done differently? Sure. Vader has a mask. Imply it might be Anakin. But it's probably his killer. Don't show the twins alive. Suggest they were killed with mom. Make episode 3 dark as loving hell so when you get to 4 all you know is poo poo is hosed and wait... why is this guy named Skywalker? Sure the entire planet knows who Darth Vader is. But a well written story can draw you in and make you feel tension. I still get worried for Dorothy when she's cornered by the wicked witch in the castle. I still get into the investigation of 'Rosebud'. Just make the movie. The biggest problem with the prequel production was how aware of the series it was. A million Boba Fetts? Light sabers as common as cell phones? C3P0 and R2 just happen to be originally owned by Darth Vader? God dammit
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May 16, 2014 15:03
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The numbers aren't viewing order they're just chronology. They were made in order and each movie directly references those that came before.
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May 16, 2014 15:14
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hhhat posted:If the story really is about the redemption of Vader which has been stated many times by the king himself, then the end of that story is episode 6. Even if that's the natural end of the story, it doesn't mean the films are meant to be viewed in chronological order (and they definitely shouldn't). Hell, 'the king' also says that if he had started with 1 then he wouldn't have been able to make the movies at all, because it wouldn't have worked as a narrative. The best way that I know to view them is 4/5/2/3/6. You get a coherent story and no spoilers.
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May 16, 2014 15:45
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It's not that hard. Force ghosts are Bodhisattvas.
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May 16, 2014 15:45
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On the other hand, the relatively long time span between the two trilogies introduced a new audience, mainly children, who were approaching them chronologically. Watching them out of release order obviates the big twists, but it introduces a few new ones. Notably, while the viewer knows all the secret relations between characters, they don't know how it ends. Anakin turning on the Jedi is a surprise, and his redemption is doubly so. The history between Anakin and Obi-Wan colors all the scenes where Vader appears, because that dude just doesn't shut up about Obi-Wan. I rather like that Clone Wars doesn't spoil Revenge of the Sith. And it's not just because sometimes that show feels like the parts that were missing from Attack of the Clones, which spent more time foreshadowing Anakin's fall than establishing what he was falling from, and didn't demonstrate that the good Luke sensed in him ever actually existed. It can supplement either trilogy without the other, or even stand alone. Plus, of course, there will be viewers who enter the series with Episode VII. I'm also interested to see how starting there changes things.
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May 16, 2014 15:45
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Bongo Bill posted:On the other hand, the relatively long time span between the two trilogies introduced a new audience, mainly children, who were approaching them chronologically.
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May 16, 2014 16:06
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I need to quote myselfhhhat posted:Because (if the prequels were good...) you could still watch the movies 1-6 and get to the end of Jedi... It doesn't matter that I think they were intended to be viewed 1-6, that don't work because 1-3 don't work.
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May 16, 2014 16:17
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Slugworth posted:Well sure, if their parents hate them. My nephews saw the original trilogy like 10 times before the prequels. They totally like the prequels, but seem more fixated on the originals. All is as it should be. Yea I mean if you are just taking your kids to see the new Star Wars movie so they'll shut up about it then they probably are into it enough to have seen the originals. And if you are dragging them along because of your own nostalgia then you've probably forced them to watch the originals at some point. I doubt this will be the first Star Wars experience for many kids.
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May 16, 2014 16:18
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hhhat posted:I need to quote myself You know you are doing something wrong when you quote yourself.
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May 16, 2014 16:22
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hhhat posted:I need to quote myself Why do you think they were intended to be viewed 1 -> 6 and not 4 -> 6, 1 -> 3? Just because they are numbered by where they are chronologically in the story doesn't mean they work as a story in that way. Yes, the overarching story follows chronologically from 1 -> 6. But the telling of that story does not. You don't read Silmarillion before the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings just because it comes first chronologically. Same with Ender's Shadow vs Ender's Game. Also, if anyone hasn't heard of this yet, I highly recommend introducing new viewers to Star Wars with the Machete Order. I've used it twice already to great effect. IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 16:27 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 16:24
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IT BEGINS posted:Why do you think they were intended to be viewed 1 -> 6 and not 4 -> 6, 1 -> 3? Just because they are numbered by where they are chronologically in the story doesn't mean they work as a story in that way. "Unfortunately, Release Order is also an instant failure, and the reason is a single shot. If you’re watching the original trilogy first, then after the Empire is destroyed and everyone is celebrating, Luke looks over at his mentors, Ben Kenobi and Yoda, and suddenly they are joined by… some random creepy looking teenager who needs a haircut. Placing Hayden Christensen in the ending of Jedi, since he’s not in ANY of the other films, turns an ending that should be celebratory into one that is confusing for the viewer. The fact that Christensen looks like he’s undressing someone with his eyes doesn’t help." This made me laugh. It really makes no sense when if you are watching the OT for the first time before seeing the prequels. e. This is actually a pretty cool idea. I might try this if I ever have kids. Honore_De_Balzac fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 16:34
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I'm firmly of the belief that coming up with a good story does not mean knowing the best way to tell that story. No one would listen to Lucas if he said that the right order for viewing the movies was 3-1-5-2-6-4. That's obviously terrible. 1-2-3-4-5-6 is not obviously terrible. It's not even that bad. But it doesn't mean it's the best way, especially given the material we have. IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 16:52
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I can't like the Machete order because cutting Qui-Gon means eliminating some important context from Obi-Wan's arc, and it also means you don't get to hear "Duel of the Fates."
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May 16, 2014 17:03
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You do hear it chopped up and messily inserted into the Yoda/Palpatine fight  You can obviously watch the films however you choose, but there are definite tone and plot elements that directly reference the prior movies. The ominous sense of foreboding surrounding Baby Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine in TPM isn't "Hmmm I wonder what's gonna happen, maybe something bad?", it's "We all know how this ends and finding Anakin has tragic consequences". Hell, AOTC features a shot that frames Anakin's silhouette so it looks exactly like Darth Vader. The prequel trilogy ends with Owen Lars staring at Tatooine's twin suns; it's not because it just looks nice, or because prequel viewers care about teenage Owen Lars, it's because that shot mirrors an iconic shot from one of the most iconic films in Hollywood history.
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May 16, 2014 17:17
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Bongo Bill posted:I can't like the Machete order because cutting Qui-Gon means eliminating some important context from Obi-Wan's arc, and it also means you don't get to hear "Duel of the Fates." What context exactly? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that's particularly important - I suppose training Anakin as a promise to Qui-Gon is a point, but I don't see that it's particularly important to the story.
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May 16, 2014 17:37
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IT BEGINS posted:What context exactly? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that's particularly important - I suppose training Anakin as a promise to Qui-Gon is a point, but I don't see that it's particularly important to the story. I think it is the fact that since Qui-Gon dies Obi is entrusted with being Anakins master when he himself is still a padawan.
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May 16, 2014 17:43
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Honore_De_Balzac posted:I think it is the fact that since Qui-Gon dies Obi is entrusted with being Anakins master when he himself is still a padawan. But he gets promoted to Jedi Knight before he is given Anakin to train. Yoda and the others don't want Anakin to be trained, not specifically that Obi isn't capable of having a padawan. It's definitely something that's missed, but is it important? It's not really brought up at all in the later movies, and while I don't see that it adds much to explaining Anakin's fall.
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May 16, 2014 17:48
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