|
The big thing about weapon implement is that it effectively allows you to dual wield implements, normally an implement is a held item so in other to access the benefits of the amulet implement you'd have to take an action to swap the lantern out. Considering you take amulet for the reaction, you might forget this more than once, unless Amulet becomes your main implement. Obv. if your GM houserules that you don't need to hold/swap implements it won't be as big of a problem, but imho it's kind of a necessary cap on Thaumaturge's power. Edit: also the weapon's interrupt is very, very good, it's straight up a better version of Reactive Strike so if you're a frontliner I'd strongly consider it. Clerical Terrors fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 13, 2024 |
#
?
May 13, 2024 16:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
The hand management isn't that big an issue, since you can swap implements as a free action as part of using an implement's actionSecond Implement posted:While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 17:39
|
|
|
Red Metal posted:The hand management isn't that big an issue, since you can swap implements as a free action as part of using an implement's action Sure, but it does interfere with implements that want to be held for passive effects, such as the Lantern (which OP is using), Regalia, Mirror (arguably - some GM adjudication comes into play here) and Tome. Which is just under half of all implements. It’s not a game breaking issue to have to deal with hand management - as noted, I think it’s an important curb on thaumaturge power - but weapon implement makes the juggling much more manageable for anyone who has effects that care about this sort of thing.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 17:45
|
|
|
Good point on juggling handheld items. I'm already a little action starved on the first couple turns due to positioning and getting my exploit in. That said I suspect the amulet would be useful more often especially if I take it again as adept at level 7. I ran it by our GM and he confirmed he would enforce the item swapping. He also pointed out we have the most trouble with the minibosses who are mostly inclined to get in our face and stay there, using their high bonus numbers to overpower the MAP to pummel us constantly. Weapon + amulet seems like a great combo for a melee thaum but the lantern has been pretty key helping us find secret doors without a rogue type. I also thought there'd be more traps but the one main trap room we found had the barbarian face tank them all by using his No Escape on a fleeing enemy. I'll see what the rest of the group is taking and if anything inspires me to go either way as we play tonight. Like finding a magic weapon or amulet, or seeing which would have come in more useful as we finish out the level. edit: I hadn't seen two replies yet and forgot swapping was a free action as part of using it. So that makes the choice a bit easier. Some food for thought, thanks for the responses.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 17:47
|
|
|
bagrada posted:Good point on juggling handheld items. I'm already a little action starved on the first couple turns due to positioning and getting my exploit in. That said I suspect the amulet would be useful more often especially if I take it again as adept at level 7. I ran it by our GM and he confirmed he would enforce the item swapping. He also pointed out we have the most trouble with the minibosses who are mostly inclined to get in our face and stay there, using their high bonus numbers to overpower the MAP to pummel us constantly. One thing to consider for Weapon vs. Amulet, is that the weapons reaction will specifically do more to shut down spellcasters, and, perhaps more frequently, gives you an additional MAP free attack of your own. Obviously, the Amulet, by contrast, is going to heavily blunt a single incoming hit per round, and you’ll find that you can probably hit that button more frequently. I think the thing that would be the deciding factor for me, is how do your Barbarian and Kineticist do with inflicting Prone or shoving enemies around? Basically, if you can force enemies to spend actions moving, weapon will enable you to become an oppressive reaction attacker. But if your team can’t support that, and since you don’t have a reach/ranged weapon to use as your implement, you might find yourself feeling frustrated that you aren’t getting to use it often enough. Just be sure, if you do go Amulet, that your party has some other light source - because you’re going to be stowing that lantern in the first round of every combat, plunging everyone into darkness regularly. Weapon and Amulet isn’t as good as it sounds because you’re overloading your reaction options. A more popular combo for offense/defense is weapon/mirror or for pure defense amulet/mirror (to maximize the availiable ground you can cover - though this really wants you to be a natural attacker of some sort.)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
Lantern and Weapon would have been pretty much perfect for everything my group has seen in AV (and no reason to rule out Reach; you can always grab an asp coil on special order from next door absalom for a good one)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 18:28
|
|
|
Kineticist is pure damage so far but looking at her options. Barbarian does grappling but hasn't done much tripping or shoving. Orc and the dwarves have darkvision. The human worked something out with the GM to use her flames as a light source torch when needed.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 18:38
|
|
|
you will find either one is good and thaums are a good enough class that you will be effective either way and AV isn't built such that only really well optimized characters are required grab whatever one seems like more fun to you and enjoy, namaste
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 19:06
|
|
|
sugar free jazz posted:you will find either one is good and thaums are a good enough class that you will be effective either way and AV isn't built such that only really well optimized characters are required Yeah, just to be exceptionally clear here, Bagrada: I don't think you can make a wrong choice here, but I do think that your various choices are more than just flavor where a "take whatever it doesn't matter you'll be fine" is appropriate either. Consider my posts above to be mostly talking through the sort of things you should be thinking about in making your choice, more than trying to push you towards any one option.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 20:43
|
|
|
Word of advice, though: don't try to make any kind of Thaumaturge your party's only melee frontliner. 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 21:01
|
|
|
Just about every thaumaturge I've seen in play has gone weapon as their second implement to get the reaction, and the one in AV went lantern/weapon specifically for wisps and ghosts. The value is there. The natural weapon based archetypes in the new book make a thaumaturge with both hands full somewhat more appealing, though Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 21:17 on May 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 21:14
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:Just about every thaumaturge I've seen in play has gone weapon as their second implement to get the reaction, and the one in AV went lantern/weapon specifically for wisps and ghosts. The value is there. That was my plan, if I'd made it to level 5. I was having a lot of fun with mirror shenanigans but died before I got a second implement.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 21:18
|
|
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:Word of advice, though: don't try to make any kind of Thaumaturge your party's only melee frontliner. Yeah I've found that out a few times when the barbarian zigged after I zagged and I found myself surrounded. The elementalist has also been trying to draw some focus lately since it turns out she's pretty tough with the constitution focus and an armor buff. Thanks again everyone for the input.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 21:19
|
|
|
I just learned familiars can't activate any items, including administering a potion to a fallen character, even if they have manual dexterity, because of rules text nowhere near the rules on familiars, companions, activatable items, or potions. There are youtube videos with Paizo game designers confirming that this is indeed the case. I'm glad I'm the GM and can just ignore stupid rules.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 21:37
|
|
|
Well I've been running it wrong too then...and I'll continue to run it wrong!
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 22:47
|
|
|
One more point regarding the weapon implement for the thaum: it's the only way to get weapon crit specialization. I don't know how much you value it, but knocking enemies prone with a flail has been a lot of fun.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:21
|
|
|
Thaum reactive strikes trigger off of more things than regular reactive strikes and let me tell you, having a player critically hit your villain when they try to do something really important happens way more often than it should. My player was using a whip and had psychic multiclass dedication for warp step. He made my spellcasters miserable, I couldn't even step away to escape.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 02:08
|
|
|
Enemy spellcasters exist to be bullied.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 11:29
|
|
|
Trip report. The floor is taking longer than anticipated to clear out so no lvl 5 second implement decision this week. That said the party is voting amulet so far since we took a beating several times and the enemies this floor have repositions that avoid reactions. That said, I was disabled in various ways during a lot of our fights and couldn't react anyway. Our Gm was thrilled he finally made our sturdy team roll enough saves that we failed some. I'm still leaning weapon so we'll see.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 13:28
|
|
|
Clerical Terrors posted:Enemy spellcasters exist to be bullied. Every three months or so somebody discovers the Fighter's Disruptive Stance and goes and cries on Reddit about how da poor widdle Wizard might actually have problems dealing with a Fighter in melee range. You can really tell who's in the pocket of Big Spellcaster if they're howling about that one.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:17
|
|
|
on the other hand vaults does tend to undercut its spellcasting enemies by giving them incapacitation spells prepared in lower level slots and sticking them in cramped rooms where anyone can just tumble through or leap past the front lines and grapple them. you don't even have to deal with a grapple-immune spellcaster with flight until the final boss
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:43
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
Just finally got my first adventure path to run new players through (Outlaws of Alkenstar) and am somewhat disappointed that not only are there no monster stats in here, but the page references seem to be for first edition books. Is there an SRD with these stats or am I still sixty bucks out from done?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:26
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Just finally got my first adventure path to run new players through (Outlaws of Alkenstar) and am somewhat disappointed that not only are there no monster stats in here, but the page references seem to be for first edition books. Is there an SRD with these stats or am I still sixty bucks out from done? Stats for monsters should be on Archive of Nethys. There shouldn't be PF1 stats in a PF2 AP (the systems are too incompatible for that) - did you confuse one of the PF2 Bestiaries with one of the PF1 Bestiaries?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:32
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Just finally got my first adventure path to run new players through (Outlaws of Alkenstar) and am somewhat disappointed that not only are there no monster stats in here, but the page references seem to be for first edition books. Is there an SRD with these stats or am I still sixty bucks out from done? The monsters should all be on Nethys https://www.aonprd.com/
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:32
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Just finally got my first adventure path to run new players through (Outlaws of Alkenstar) and am somewhat disappointed that not only are there no monster stats in here, but the page references seem to be for first edition books. Is there an SRD with these stats or am I still sixty bucks out from done? That sucks. All the monsters should be here though: https://2e.aonprd.com/
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:33
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:Stats for monsters should be on Archive of Nethys. There shouldn't be PF1 stats in a PF2 AP (the systems are too incompatible for that) - did you confuse one of the PF2 Bestiaries with one of the PF1 Bestiaries? Well the references are all for things called Bestiary 1 and 2, and my understanding is that book is called the Monster Core in this edition, but there might still be things called Bestiaries.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:35
|
|
|
That's the difference between 2E (Bestiary 1/2/3) and 2E Remastered (Monster Core) book naming which are both still 2E.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:37
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Well the references are all for things called Bestiary 1 and 2, and my understanding is that book is called the Monster Core in this edition, but there might still be things called Bestiaries. Monster Core is for PF2 Remastered. Outlaws of Alkenstar is for the original PF2. Unlike the differences between PF1 and PF2, there's mostly no need to convert monster stats, just differences in terminology (like positive/negative damage vs. vitality/void damage and flat-footed vs. off-guard). The removal of alignment could cause issues for some monsters that appear in other adventures, but not for anything in Outlaws of Alkenstar, IIRC.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:42
|
|
|
Gotcha thanks. Yeah I might wait to run this til after abom vault or something. Like the first random thing I thought to check was a Goblin War Chanter, which I don't see it in the SRD list. Probably fine as I don't think he's a combatant unless things go completely sideways.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:45
|
|
|
Goblin War Chanter: https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=235
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 23:57
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Gotcha thanks. Yeah I might wait to run this til after abom vault or something. Like the first random thing I thought to check was a Goblin War Chanter, which I don't see it in the SRD list. Probably fine as I don't think he's a combatant unless things go completely sideways. I just realized what the problem might be. You see, they did the big remaster update a few months ago that moved all the stuff that's only in the original version of the core books like Produce Flame and the original Fighter feats and etc into the legacy content category, while updated versions are shown by default. There's more detail in this post if you're curious, but the important part is this: all the stuff in Bestiary 1 was moved into legacy content, but Monster Core isn't getting added to AoN until next week because the remaster was a data entry nightmare in general. Will they need a notably different entry for the Monster Core version? No, there aren't that many changes. The only difference between the Bestiary War Chanter and the Monster Core version is whether they have Inspire Courage or Courageous Anthem, and Inspire Courage already redirects to Courageous Anthem on AoN because the only difference is the name. But it's still technically legacy content. EDIT: Actually, looking over how AoN handles legacy content, you should just get to something like Goblin War Chanter anyway. So... I don't know, get better at searching? poo poo's weird. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 01:13 on May 15, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 01:09
|
|
|
Yeah, not sure what's going on. That link seems to produce a slightly different list if I'm on my phone. More goblins but none of them are the war chanter. Now that I'm home it's less goblins but the war chanter is in there. I guess I'm all good for now.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 01:33
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Yeah, not sure what's going on. That link seems to produce a slightly different list if I'm on my phone. More goblins but none of them are the war chanter. Now that I'm home it's less goblins but the war chanter is in there. I guess I'm all good for now. Try turning off the "Prefer Pathfinder Remastered Core" setting.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 01:41
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Yeah, not sure what's going on. That link seems to produce a slightly different list if I'm on my phone. More goblins but none of them are the war chanter. Now that I'm home it's less goblins but the war chanter is in there. I guess I'm all good for now. kingcobweb linked the 1st edition SRD, you want Facebook Aunt's link
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 12:51
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Yeah, not sure what's going on. That link seems to produce a slightly different list if I'm on my phone. More goblins but none of them are the war chanter. Now that I'm home it's less goblins but the war chanter is in there. I guess I'm all good for now. There is a ton of stuff in PF2e and it makes AoN kind of unwieldy to search until you get used to the system. I always forget how to search for the cost of copy spells from a scroll because it's called "learn a spell" but in my head I can't stop thinking it should be called "copy a scroll" even though that's wrong. Sometimes it's easier to just google what you're looking for with pf2e appended to it. Like Procrastine said above me, you want to make sure you are on the correct wiki. https://2e.aonprd.com/
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 14:58
|
|
|
What does everyone think the rulebooks after Battlecry! will be about? After you’ve done technological, occult, treasure, undead, elemental, animal, divine, and martial books, it feels like the only themes left are arcane (and even that has heavy overlap with Secrets of Magic), skills, and something along the lines of “Monster Core 2.”
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 17:56
|
|
|
Hell/abyssal?
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 18:01
|
|
|
General feats with a theme of training could be an idea. And there's always regional books.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 18:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 15:04 |
|
|
Dexo posted:Hell/abyssal? I was lumping that in the “divine” category, but now that I think about it, between the two new classes, the mythic rules, and the metaplotty stuff, there probably won’t be a ton of room for material about fiends (except daemons, I guess) in War of Immortals. That said, I’m not sure how much sense it makes as a subject for a rulebook (as opposed to a Lost Omens book). Rules for evil Champions already exist and are widely agreed to be a waste of space; there are also rules for magical contracts and stats for a variety of fiends. What fiend-themed rules content is missing?
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2024 18:11
|
|