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myDad posted:Likely the way a spritesheet works: put all of them together in one big 'canvas', then cut out the piece you need when rendering. Except in this case it would be a polygon composed of triangles. yospos here I come
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Jul 11, 2017 23:19
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:Oh, like an image sprite in css. That's probably quite efficient in some ways but a bitch to mod then? Eh, all the data is loaded into memory so it's probably not much more efficient that having separate files. Efficiency used to be a huge concern when the capacity of a game cartridge or disk was in the megabytes, but since then, well, 
myDad fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 23:25
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You'd be using more memory then usual unless all the guns were on screen at one time, wouldn't you. Bizarre.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:32
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Depends on the implementation. You can open the file, cut out the piece you want and keep that saved in RAM, then close the file. The point of efficiency is that you only have one file with a header describing its contents instead of n files (and n very similar headers). It probably saved space on the disc, but it sounds like that guy did a lot of stuff that was entirely unnecessary. 
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Jul 11, 2017 23:37
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The lighting in IW was actually pretty good for the time, I thought. I wonder what that programmer went on to do.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:44
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:You'd be using more memory then usual unless all the guns were on screen at one time, wouldn't you. Switching between guns in-game needs to be fast though, so you'd be keeping all the textures in memory anyway. Also old graphics cards made it more efficient (or sometimes even necessary) to have textures with pixel dimensions in square powers of 2 (32x32, 64x64, etc), so there might have been a consideration there if you could cram them all into the same square space. But yes, would make it a bitch and a half to mod Lunchabully fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 23:47
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there was a pre-release interview where someone involved in IW, possibly Smith, bragged about the AI scripting capabilities they were working on, that would be able to detect and react to the surroundings in interesting ways. what he described did end up in the game but it was rather useless. if you shut down a security bot while a guard wasn't looking, he'd turn around and say "THE BOT'S SHUT DOWN. THAT'S STRANGE!" and then continue patrolling exactly as before
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Jul 12, 2017 00:05
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Lunchabully posted:Switching between guns in-game needs to be fast though, so you'd be keeping all the textures in memory anyway. so hopefully they kept discrete files during development and only moved to the single texture after the loadout and weapon designs were finalized? but if they didn't it was just as much of a nightmare for the developers as it would be for modders idk I'm just imagining getting all the way into alpha and realizing like the shotgun would have better balance as a double barrel or the rifle's bolt is on the wrong side or something then finding out we couldn't change it without having to then manually realign the textures for every weapon in the game
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Jul 12, 2017 01:08
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Cubone posted:here we go Not exactly, the guy is totally unapologetic. He blames listening to "some hardcore friend" which is why they lost "90% of the audience." "It's not selling out to cater to an audience...if you want to make an indy game, sit in your closet and make an indy game and release it for four guys on the internet. That's great. That's totally noble." "We had some good friends who said Deus Ex was a giant disaster...so ashamed, let's fix that in the sequel" Removing "redundant skills and augmentations," which the Deus Ex 1 players inexplicably liked, are core reason behind IW failing. This guy has no idea why Deus Ex was good and less than that on why IW was bad. bedpan fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 01:12
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The version of the engine that they used for Thief: Deadly Shadows was sightly more complete/functional and modders have been able to do a lot to fix it up like merging all the tiny maps into proper huge levels, there's nothing quite on par with that for Invisible War but earlier this year somebody put out [an unofficial patch that lets it run at modern resolutions and apparently helps with some of the performance issues.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:20
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bedpan posted:Not exactly, the guy is totally unapologetic. He blames listening to "some hardcore friend" which is why they lost "90% of the audience." "Removing redundancy" should be a huge red flag when developing a Deus Ex style game. Most of the appeal of the game is that there are dozens of different ways to do everything, and depending on how you play, you might come across all of them or one of them and no matter what it's equally valid.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:38
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bedpan posted:Not exactly, the guy is totally unapologetic. He blames listening to "some hardcore friend" which is why they lost "90% of the audience." what?
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Jul 12, 2017 01:43
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Sagebrush posted:"Removing redundancy" should be a huge red flag when developing a Deus Ex style game. Most of the appeal of the game is that there are dozens of different ways to do everything, and depending on how you play, you might come across all of them or one of them and no matter what it's equally valid. There are dozens of different ways to do everything, but most of them involving crawling through convenient human-sized ventilation ducts.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:06
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Dishonored is a similar sort of game.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:12
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Alpha Protocol definitely has shades of Deus Ex, though it plays very differently. But the storytelling, weird (branching) scenarios, and overall bizarre feel are pretty Deus Ex.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:15
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Human sized ventilation ducts were illuminati mandated in the building code to give their agents a back door into any important facility but much like the rest of the game, the player uses their own technology against them because in their hubris they never thought anyone would ever challenge them.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:18
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Cubone posted:what? Harvey Smith screwed up and blames other people
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Jul 12, 2017 02:18
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Guy Mann posted:There are dozens of different ways to do everything, but most of them involving crawling through convenient human-sized ventilation ducts. that's disingenuous. i'd say no more than half of them involve crawling through convenient human-sized ducts anyway, point remains that the game is about redundancy. how many different ways can you get into the statue of liberty? if the devs had just said "well you can find the key for the door by talking to that bum, like alex jacobson said in the briefing, so we don't need to allow collecting lockpicks or hacking the computer or stacking boxes around the back, because that's redundant" it would miss the entire point of the game.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:18
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Cough Drop The Beat posted:Alpha Protocol definitely has shades of Deus Ex, though it plays very differently. But the storytelling, weird (branching) scenarios, and overall bizarre feel are pretty Deus Ex. I wanted to like this but couldn't get into it. The aesthetic and story just didn't seem interesting.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:21
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Sagebrush posted:that's disingenuous. i'd say no more than half of them involve crawling through convenient human-sized ducts iirc, Harvey Smith was the guy who was pushing for universal ammo too. Sad for Deus Ex that when he sold out, he sold out to the poorly designed, bad sequel market
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Jul 12, 2017 02:21
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and the fact that there's just so much poo poo in the game that any given player might see like, I dunno, 20% of the content on one run. if the argument is "well therefore we're wasting effort by doing the other 80%" then you screwed up. it probably took me like a dozen playthroughs before i discovered the shotgun on the sunken boat out the back dock of liberty island. how many people found that on their first time through? there isn't even any more ammo for it on the island (iirc) and you get the same shotgun immediately when you go to castle clinton, so it's pretty much useless. but it's still there
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Jul 12, 2017 02:22
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Sagebrush posted:"Removing redundancy" should be a huge red flag when developing a Deus Ex style game. Most of the appeal of the game is that there are dozens of different ways to do everything, and depending on how you play, you might come across all of them or one of them and no matter what it's equally valid. The only 'redundancy' they removed which has a plausible argument is combining multitools and lockpicks imo. Whoever told him Deus Ex 1 was a disaster should be found and executed on national tv for being so incredibly wrong. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 02:23
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bedpan posted:Harvey Smith screwed up and blames other people bedpan posted:iirc, Harvey Smith was the guy who was pushing for universal ammo too. okay I feel like you have a thing about harvey smith, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about selling out, or not selling out, when he said "cater to an audience" I think he just meant it's important to remember to put the players' experience before abstract design efficiency? that's the way I always took it anyway I only posted it because it's funny that when asked about the design process he immediately says he was going through a bad divorce and they hosed up in a lot of respects like because in the one for the first game he doesn't do that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWvsGA77T4
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Jul 12, 2017 02:33
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Neurosis posted:I wanted to like this but couldn't get into it. The aesthetic and story just didn't seem interesting. the story is good once you dig into it, and the interactions are always great but everything aside from that is poo poo tier
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Jul 12, 2017 02:35
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Alpha Protocol would legit be better as an adventure game or even a glorified visual novel because the way that you can effect so many things and how the whole plot takes several playthroughs to really wrap your head around it all is the best thing about and padding it out with hours of mediocre third-person stealth action just gets in the way of it all.Cough Drop The Beat posted:Alpha Protocol definitely has shades of Deus Ex, though it plays very differently. But the storytelling, weird (branching) scenarios, and overall bizarre feel are pretty Deus Ex. Alpha Protocol didn't begin with you using 0451 as a door code so it isn't a true Immersive Sim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAtAyycx-uY If you're the kind of person who watches dudes theorycrafting about video games on YouTube the latest Errant Signal about the legacy of Looking Glass Studio and all the games like Deus Ex and Bioshock and Dishonored and Prey that all share its DNA is a good listen. His point about these types of games having plots where your character serves as a mediating force between extreme viewpoints is something the Invisible War chat has had me thinking about, because for all its faults the entire plot about the two different factions secretly being controlled by the same people is a great example of that.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:42
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Cough Drop The Beat posted:Alpha Protocol definitely has shades of Deus Ex, though it plays very differently. But the storytelling, weird (branching) scenarios, and overall bizarre feel are pretty Deus Ex. It has story branches like the main character getting raped by blonde east german woman.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:43
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i found an accidentally designed sequence break that gets you a door code in versa life (i think) before without even attempting to do some plot points. it was a long time ago
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Jul 12, 2017 02:52
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Cubone posted:okay I feel like  Cubone posted:but I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about selling out, or not selling out, when he said "cater to an audience" I think he just meant it's important to remember to put the players' experience before abstract design efficiency? that's the way I always took it What I took from it is that he thought a game much more in the style of Deus Ex 1 would alienate the potential players and waste "20 million of somebody else's money." Which is hilarious considering the reception IW had on the market. Cubone posted:anyway I only posted it because it's funny that when asked about the design process he immediately says he was going through a bad divorce and they hosed up in a lot of respects Oh it is! Everything that could go wrong did go wrong.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:58
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Guy Mann posted:Alpha Protocol would legit be better as an adventure game or even a glorified visual novel because the way that you can effect so many things and how the whole plot takes several playthroughs to really wrap your head around it all is the best thing about and padding it out with hours of mediocre third-person stealth action just gets in the way of it all. good video. I liked the point about how most of these games have worlds where the social order is breaking down, and how that works well with gameplay that focuses on giving the player freedom of choice in how to solve problems also anyone who agrees that Bioshock Infinite's thematic structure is trash is okay by me
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Jul 12, 2017 03:21
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Stick with the prod
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Jul 12, 2017 03:42
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bedpan posted:Not exactly, the guy is totally unapologetic. He blames listening to "some hardcore friend" which is why they lost "90% of the audience."
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Jul 12, 2017 03:48
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Gazpacho posted:He's absolutely right about the setting. The portrayal of locations in DX was historically grounded, so that New York has a Battery Park and Paris has an art nouveau subway entrance, etc. Compare to IW where "Seattle" could have been renamed anything, and as if to prove the point it was renamed Hengsha and reused in HR. There hasn't been a commitment to connecting the story with what the player knows about the world Yeah, I was hasty with that last sentence.
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Jul 12, 2017 03:51
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Harvey Smith can make a good action game but he 100% doesn't get what made Deus Ex amazing. Neither does Warren Spector. I'm not sure any of the creators really grasp the whole picture.
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Jul 12, 2017 03:57
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https://playthroughline.com/scripts/deus-ex-invisible-war Sums up IW pretty well.
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Jul 12, 2017 04:03
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the black husserl posted:Harvey Smith can make a good action game but he 100% doesn't get what made Deus Ex amazing. Spector himself admits this. He's credited as being the man behind Deus Ex but has always been insistent that the credit belonged to the whole team.
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Jul 12, 2017 04:37
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meat police posted:Stick with the prod prod with the prod
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Jul 12, 2017 07:02
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Sagebrush posted:goty 2017 Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 08:08
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Sagebrush posted:prod with the prod Welcome to the coalition, PROD!
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Jul 12, 2017 08:49
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you're just really bad at the game mate lol
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Jul 12, 2017 08:55
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Jose posted:you're just really bad at the game mate lol
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Jul 12, 2017 08:59
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