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Mr. Apollo posted:The link isn’t working for me. The website appears be having technical difficulties
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Aug 3, 2020 17:52
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Roth posted:Finally got around to watching Batman v Superman after watching Man of Steel a month or two ago. Fantastic finish Edit: Actually, I was thinking about this earlier today, it's kind of amazing how prescient BvS actually is. The indifference to billionaires loving things up for millions of people, police condoning violent brutality against the poor, the scrutiny of good people threatening to upset the status quo to delegitimize them, it really was ahead of its time McCloud fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 22:04
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McCloud posted:Fantastic finish
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Aug 3, 2020 22:20
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Roth posted:Upon rewatch, I think the interesting thing about this movie is how it goes great lengths to show politicians, neoliberal talking heads, and rich businessmen discussing the question of Superman, and whether or not his heroic acts needs to be restrained. Meanwhile, those same people conveniently ignore the problems of the police not caring for inmates under their care, nor the businessmen that are actually the villains of the movie… Right, an important part of the narrative is that while the American news media is scrutinizing Superman, Clark is scrutinizing the American news media: specifically as part of an ideological state apparatus. “When you assign a story, you're making a choice about who matters, and who's worth it.” The media ultimately reflect the views & concerns of the elite, and what terrifies them the most is Superman’s penchant for internationalism. The underclass, who don’t fear Superman, remain voiceless, which is reflected in the various rescue footage shown in the news segments. Clark is frustrated at the open secret that Batman keeps his activities concentrated on the poor parts of the city with the police in tow, so he becomes insubordinate after failing to convince his boss to cover Batman’s exploits in favor of fluff sport pieces. But he runs up against the wall, as so many individuals do, and decides to barrel through it as Superman. Perry is right when he says, “No one cares about Clark Kent taking on the Bat”, both textually and meta-textually, as general audiences don’t want their heroes ideologically critiqued in superhero fiction. A common interpretation I’ve seen of the burning factory rescue scene is that Superman is visibly uncomfortable due to being worshiped as a God, but I disagree because they all have deeply solemn faces, and not looks of awe; but mostly because it’s pretty insulting to the people reaching out to him (As a sidenote, I've never seen people apply this, "Mistaking Superman for God", reading to the white people trapped on the roofs of their flooded homes). I think Superman is more unsettled that, as he’s voluntarily restricted his interventions to Acts of God, he’s already being heavily criticized, so if he’s to meaningfully help these people (Especially those outside of the United States), he’s going to have to take on far more slings and arrows, and more importantly, get people hurt who otherwise wouldn't.  Regardless, the mountain of human skulls Superman nightmarishly drowned in from Man of Steel represented the dead of the future. Now they reach out to him, via the Día de Muertos imagery, from the present & the past, and Superman is fully awake. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 22:58
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KVeezy3 posted:Regardless, the mountain of human skulls Superman nightmarishly drowned in from Man of Steel represented the dead of the future. Now they reach out to him, via the Día de Muertos imagery, from the present & the past, and Superman is fully awake. Now that right there is a great catch.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:08
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KVeezy3 posted:As a sidenote, I've never seen people apply this, "Mistaking Superman for God", reading to the white people trapped on the roofs of their flooded homes I forget if it was on this forum or on Twitter but I remember someone being really adamant that the rooftop woman in that scene was crying because she was afraid of Superman and wanted him to leave and that it was a sign that Zack Snyder was making Superman a sadist for tormenting the woman.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:14
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McCloud posted:Fantastic finish That sounds centuries behind actually
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Aug 3, 2020 23:23
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KVeezy3 posted:Right, an important part of the narrative is that while the American news media is scrutinizing Superman, Clark is scrutinizing the American news media; specifically as part of an ideological state apparatus. I think this is spot on and actually kind of made me change my mind about what the mexican people are doing in that scene. They are not in awe of him this is true, they aren't worshipful of his presence but rather they reach out to him as one would a brother, an equal... an ally. In that solidarity is where it makes Clark uncomfortable because he can't just save people from the aftermath of capitalism all the time.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:31
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Chairman Capone posted:I forget if it was on this forum or on Twitter but I remember someone being really adamant that the rooftop woman in that scene was crying because she was afraid of Superman and wanted him to leave and that it was a sign that Zack Snyder was making Superman a sadist for tormenting the woman. That's incredible, in every sense of the word. Especially considering that, in place of a S.O.S. signal, there is a gigantic Superman symbol sprawled on the rooftop right next to her, with the requisite paint can and brush. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 23:32
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KVeezy3 posted:(As a sidenote, I've never seen people apply this, "Mistaking Superman for God", reading to the white people trapped on the roofs of their flooded homes). Ehh, I dunno. The entire plot of BvS hinges on Lex Luthor mistaking Superman for God, he's just mad about it instead of reverent.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:37
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:..In that solidarity is where it makes Clark uncomfortable because he can't just save people from the aftermath of capitalism all the time. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Ehh, I dunno. The entire plot of BvS hinges on Lex Luthor mistaking Superman for God, he's just mad about it instead of reverent. I wasn't applying that observation to all white people in the film, but Lex Jr., rather overtly, doesn't actually mistake Superman for a literal God (By the time he confronts Superman, Lex has already learned a bunch of otherworldly knowledge from the Kryptonian ship); he just loves literary wordplay that he, almost pathologically, can't help but outwardly express (As SMG has succinctly described, like an overclocked brain). Hence Lex's first words to Lois Lane being: "Plain Lo in the morning. Lo in slacks... Lois Lane", which references Nabokov's infamous beginning passage to Lolita , “She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita". Specifically, Lex uses the word God to stand for universality as such. He feels that Superman's claim to this is ultimately faulty, as he is, at the end of the day, an individual with specific favored relations in the world, a weakness which Lex has used to manipulate throughout the entire film. “What we call God depends upon our tribe, Clark Jo. Because God is tribal. God takes sides. No man in the sky intervened when I was a boy to deliver me from daddy’s fist and abominations. I’ve figured it out way back, if God is all powerful, He cannot be all good. And if He is all good, then He cannot be all powerful. And neither can you be.” Just as flippantly as Lex calls Superman a God, he derides Superman as a "Flying demon", who has a mother that, "Must be a witch. The punishment for witches, what is that? That's right, death by fire." He proceeds to amuse, literally only himself, by taking his wordplay to a ridiculously ironic degree by using a kitchen cooking timer to countdown the minutes to her immolation by flamethrower. Of course, Superman ultimately cuts Luthor's Gordian Knot problem by, with a smile, sacrificing his own life to save the whole world. (Ultimate libertarian, am I right?) EDIT: Apologies for all of my post edits, here and in my preceding posts. I recognize that my attempts to capture my thoughts in writing coherently is annoyingly volatile. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 23:49
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KVeezy3 posted:
https://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-skulls-meaning-zack-snyder/ quote:It's the kind of fan-director interaction most comic book enthusiasts will only dream of, spotted thanks to a post on Reddit. The scene in question comes from Batman V Superman's first act, when Superman flees Lex Luthor's party to rescue a girl trapped in a burning Mexican factory. As he returns to the ground with the girl held safely in his arms, the crowd of onlookers surrounds him. Since the tragedy has struck in the midst of the Day of the Dead celebration, those onlookers are dressed in skull facepaint, carrying or wearing skeletons.
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Aug 3, 2020 23:54
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That Maggie woman completely missed the point of Fight Club. I guess because some dopes started their own actual fight clubs the movie is a narrative failure.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:30
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sponges posted:That Maggie woman completely missed the point of Fight Club. I guess because some dopes started their own actual fight clubs the movie is a narrative failure. After watching Maggie doing hard work to fit what happens in a movie to her mental frame I’m curious to see what she’s going to say about the Owl movie, a children movie with the explicit message: you have to resist the attraction of fascists with all your might even if they are your brother and if that fascist prick fights back you burn him alive I guess. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 00:51
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"Legend of the Guardians is a cautionary tale about what happens when white people leave their gated community."
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Aug 4, 2020 00:56
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Hoof, that final "we hope."
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Aug 4, 2020 00:59
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Chairman Capone posted:I forget if it was on this forum or on Twitter but I remember someone being really adamant that the rooftop woman in that scene was crying because she was afraid of Superman and wanted him to leave and that it was a sign that Zack Snyder was making Superman a sadist for tormenting the woman. I *think* it was screenrant or one of those sites where I read a review of that scene where the author complained that Superman was acting like a vengeful god. Looking down at suffering people and making them beg for his assistance while he passed judgement on them. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 01:32
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Mr. Apollo posted:I *think* it was screenrant or one of those sites where a read a review of that scene where the author complained that Superman was acting like a vengeful god. Looking down at suffering people and making them beg for his assistance while he passed judgement on them. I remember something like that. “Why is he hovering above the flood looking down on the victims and not helping?”
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Aug 4, 2020 02:07
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To be fair, it's him thinking about the situation from the perspective of the woman and being worried about how he comes across: So it's not wrong to look at that and feel uncomfortable about the implied relationship between them. It's shot to communicate how powerless she is compared to him. And he's specifically remembering it as being similar to a moment he was desperate and reaching out for help:  With shades of a time he showed up in a way specifically intended to intimidate people:  Except this time he's obscuring the sun rather than standing beside and beneath it. The issue is that this is communicating his fears about how he's being perceived, not his actual intentions or how he's necessarily actually perceived. And he's worried about this because of the commentary on the news, which, as we're told in the scene at the charity ball, is controlled by billionaires like Luthor and Wayne.
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Aug 4, 2020 03:26
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Sir Kodiak posted:To be fair, it's him thinking about the situation from the perspective of the woman and being worried about how he comes across: 
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Aug 4, 2020 03:39
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Sir Kodiak posted:To be fair, it's him thinking about the situation from the perspective of the woman and being worried about how he comes across: We see a similar angle when he faces off against Batman  The camera is from the PoV of the woman on the roof, soldiers and Batman respectively, and that's why we see him from their perspective. As a benevolent angelic figure wreathed in light, as a shadowy unknown alien and as a vengeful god of thunder (Gods hurl lightningbolts). Bonus shot, him descending at the capitol https://twitter.com/celinakyle139/status/1228451154327150596?s=20
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Aug 4, 2020 03:55
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The otherworldly compositional motif of Superman hovering captures such a precise psychology of how his presence is perceived. Its such a basic display of power in relative comic book terms yet when its grounded the way Snyder does it becomes so intimidating and impactful to see a "human" floating stoicly. Contrasted with the earthly texture of a cape flowing gracefully with the wind, it becomes a mesmerizing image, almost hypnotic. It truly invokes many varying emotional flavors of awe.
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Aug 4, 2020 04:53
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Roth posted:Finally got around to watching Batman v Superman after watching Man of Steel a month or two ago. This was amazing.
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Aug 4, 2020 05:17
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It's also important to note the voiceover during that shot:Batman V Superman posted:Are you, as a United States senator, personally comfortable saying to a grieving mother "Superman could have saved your child, but on principle we did not want him to act"?
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Aug 4, 2020 05:24
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McCloud posted:The camera is from the PoV of the woman on the roof, soldiers and Batman respectively, and that's why we see him from their perspective. As a benevolent angelic figure wreathed in light, as a shadowy unknown alien and as a vengeful god of thunder (Gods hurl lightningbolts). For sure. Like is it so crazy that, in the flooding scene, Superman is taking the time to scan around for the best course of action? Like you know, if someone might be underwater drowning? Or we could imagine the worst possible reasons he could be floating in the sky in a 5 second slow motion clip. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 06:59
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That shot of him floating while the woman reaches out to him is probably the coolest shot in comic book movie history. It could just be that for 90 minutes and I’d probably watch it.
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Aug 4, 2020 14:07
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I think the problem is a lot of people haven't seen proper visual storytelling in so long they're confused by it without a character telling them how they're supposed to feel.
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Aug 4, 2020 14:23
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I always took that montage of him pulling the ship, carrying the rocket, and the people looking up at him from the flood to be more about how humans saw him as opposed to what actually happened. Did he really float above the flood victims looking down at them? Who knows, but that's how the people there remember the event; being rescued by some sort of divine being. edit - Is Ryan Reynolds trolling or is there something to this? https://twitter.com/VancityReynolds/status/1290598054815555585?s=20 Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 14:50
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Maybe the Flash is watching Deadpool instead of Rick and Morty.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:52
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I hope the DCU has a new Green Lantern, so it canonically has Jon Stewart and John Stewart.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:57
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Im assuming he is just being cheeky about having once been GL.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:44
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Robot Style posted:It's also important to note the voiceover during that shot: The flood shot is also a very direct callback to the scene in Dawn Of The Dead where the protagonists try to signal the helicopter with signs painted on the roof. Of course, in Dawn Of The Dead, the helicopter either doesn’t see them or is deliberately leaving them to die. In Dawn Of Justice, Superman obviously saves these people - but what does it mean that he answers their prayers? Is he basically just a military helicopter? Or will he ‘infect’ the world with his influence? Those are the anxieties that the news montage is capturing. Also, it’s a pretty obvious reference to Pa Kent saving the horses from the flood. KVeezy3 posted:Here is my write-up for the Snyderdome movie of the moment Reign of Fire (2002). This is all spot-on. My favorite detail in Reign is when Quinn encounters the dragons for the first time. He examines the sparkling walls of the cave, then sees is a tiny burst of fire, and he momentarily panics and thinks that he’s dropped his lighter. The fire is coming from within him! “The object-Thing is thus clearly rendered as a part of ourselves that we eject into reality. [...] What if the true horror is that of Something - the intrusion of some excessive massive Real - where we expect Nothing?” -Zizek
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Aug 4, 2020 17:37
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There were the initial rumors he’s playing GL in it. Who knows? Something better than Flashpoint time travel could some how involve alternate versions of the characters? Tying in with Keaton’s Batman who is supposed to be coming back too? I don’t know how much they can rejigger the movie without massive reshoots that I haven’t seen talked about?
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Aug 4, 2020 17:40
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And then obviously Superman can’t spend 24/7 flying around saving people, so how do people react when their family dies but the family two streets over were saved from the hurricane by Superman?
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Aug 4, 2020 17:41
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Mr. Apollo posted:I always took that montage of him pulling the ship, carrying the rocket, and the people looking up at him from the flood to be more about how humans saw him as opposed to what actually happened. Did he really float above the flood victims looking down at them? Who knows, but that's how the people there remember the event; being rescued by some sort of divine being. I think he's joking about how it's rumored green lantern is in it
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Aug 4, 2020 18:17
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I think he's joking about how it's rumored green lantern is in it
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Aug 4, 2020 18:22
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Violator posted:And then obviously Superman can’t spend 24/7 flying around saving people, so how do people react when their family dies but the family two streets over were saved from the hurricane by Superman? That's the great tragedy about Superman: he's powerful enough to save anyone in particular but powerless to save everyone. Even if he did go 24/7 (and used his super speed to slow down time even more), he could save millions of lives a day from accidents, mistakes, homicides, etc., and still fail to impress the world, never mind change it. Or he'd realize that the millions he saved one moment would still end up dead the next or would be oblivious to his efforts. Talk about a Sisyphean Task. Superman has always been impotent to save John Smith of Main St. He can only save the "world," or last the status quo version of it. As I think about it, the continued existence of Lois Lane would infuriate people. "You continue to save that reckless reporter 200 times a year but you couldn't save my 3 year-old daughter once?" Unlike the hurricane or tornado, the public would have little sympathy for Superman because they would insist he has some agency. He'd be damned if he did and damned if he didn't. That's part of the charm of MoS: given these conditions, Clark still tries to do good.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:00
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The only things I remember about Reign of Fire are the Star Wars scene, an opening voiceover vaguely, and thinking it was incredibly lame for what the premise wasquote:As I think about it, the continued existence of Lois Lane would infuriate people. "You continue to save that reckless reporter 200 times a year but you couldn't save my 3 year-old daughter once?" Unlike the hurricane or tornado, the public would have little sympathy for Superman because they would insist he has some agency. He'd be damned if he did and damned if he didn't. That's part of the charm of MoS: given these conditions, Clark still tries to do good. Snyder League should have an "orphans created" counter in the bottom right every time a superhero does something.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:08
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He's also restrained by the morality of power- he cannot meaningfully have a conversation with any system of government without carrying the implicit threat of his very existence. He cannot back or endorse any one side without immediately weighing on them all of his import, and any attempt to make the system change will inevitably be seen as done with force, regardless how he goes about it. Imagine having a political discussion with someone who insists that he has to hold you at gunpoint the entire time, and you have no meaningful way to equalize the situation. Only this person cannot be removed from their gun, and also you can't even hurt them even if you tried. It'd be infinitely easier for Superman to fall into totalitarian or fascistic bends, or to have his best efforts to avoid them discounted
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Aug 4, 2020 20:09
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FooF posted:That's the great tragedy about Superman: he's powerful enough to save anyone in particular but powerless to save everyone. Even if he did go 24/7 (and used his super speed to slow down time even more), he could save millions of lives a day from accidents, mistakes, homicides, etc., and still fail to impress the world, never mind change it. Or he'd realize that the millions he saved one moment would still end up dead the next or would be oblivious to his efforts. Talk about a Sisyphean Task. "Must there be a Superman?" "There is." Is such a great encapsulation of this complexity and the sort of baffling number of angles you could ethically examine such a being. Theres almost an exhausted resignation to that question and response, but theres also an acknowledgement of the gravity of his existence and the need to constantly question it.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:10
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